Confession in Orthodoxy

[Markie Boy]

Can you help me learn how Orthodoxy views confession please?

1. Does Orthodoxy teach that one can confess directly to God without a priest?

2. What how does John 20:23 fit with things - If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Catholicism teaches one can confess direct to God, but it must be a perfect act of contrition - which begs the question - can it be imperfect if the priest is there? Does the priest make up the difference? And are you forgiven if the priest is not there to give absolution - they just don't teach on this stuff, and if you ask they run you in circles.

And I'm not trying to avoid confession - but something feels wrong when it comes from somewhere that's shown to have questionable judgement in things spiritual.

Thank you and God Bless

 

[~Anastasia~]

I can't answer all the "legalities". I think maybe Orthodoxy just doesn't look at things that way.

Yes, we can confess directly to God.

When we come for confession, we are confessing to God. The priest is only a witness. However, it is a sacrament and so we are assured of the grace that accompanies Sacraments and requires the priest.

Ideally I think we would ask forgiveness of sins and do an accounting every day in our personal prayers, and go to the priest for confession at least periodically, and certainly if anything serious comes up.

I wonder if this answer may seem unsatisfying to a Catholic though?

 

[Markie Boy]

Not unsatisfying at all - very common sensical! Funny - Catholicism stresses getting to confession (well in theory, not so much reality) a lot.

But what I tell my kids is when you sin, the first one you need to go to for confession is the one you sinned against - I don't know if I have ever heard that in practical Catholic teaching.

It's always - get to a priest, so you are not in a state of mortal sin, etc......

 

[ArmyMatt]

confession is only done to God directly. the priest is there as a witness, to advise, and as the instrument through whom God gives absolution.

 

[All4Christ]

Apologies for the lack of additional information due to time constraints, but this helped me a lot. These are the confession prayers:

O God, our Savior, Who, by Thy prophet Nathan didst grant remission of his sins to the repentant David, and didst accept the penitent prayer of Manasseh: Do Thou Thyself, in Thy customary love for mankind, accept this, Thy servant, N., who repents of the sins he (she) has committed, overlooking all that he (she) has done, forgiving his (her) unrighteousness, and passing by his (her) transgressions.

For Thou, O Lord, hast said: “I desire not the death of a sinner, but that he turn from his way and live”; and that sins shall be forgiven even unto seventy times seven. For as Thy majesty is incomparable, so is Thy mercy immeasurable. For if Thou shouldest mark iniquities, who should stand?
For Thou art the God of them that repent and unto Thee do we send up glory: to the Father, and to
the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages.

O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, the Shepherd, and the Lamb that taketh away the sins of the world, Who gavest remittance unto the two debtors, and didst grant remission of her sins unto the harlot: Do Thou Thyself, O Master, loose, remit and pardon the sins, transgressions and iniquities, whether voluntary or involuntary, whether known or unknown, whether by mistake or in disobedience, which Thy servants have wrought, and whatsoever they have done, as men bearing flesh and living in the world, being beguiled by the devil.

And if by word, or by deed, or in knowledge, or in ignorance they have sinned, or have despised the word of a Priest, or are under a priestly anathema, or are fallen under their own anathema, or are bound under an oath, do Thou Thyself as Thou art good and gentle, O Master, be pleased that these, Thy servants, be loosed by Thy word, forgiving them their own anathema and oath, according to the greatness of Thy mercy.

Yea, O Master and Lord, O Lover of Mankind, hearken unto us who are entreating Thy grace for these Thy servants; and, as the
greatly-merciful One, overlook all their transgressions, and deliver them from eternal torment. For Thou hast said, O Master: “Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

For Thou only art sinless, and unto Thee do we send up glory: to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages.

After this, he says to him (her):

Priest: Behold, My Spiritual Child, Christ stands invisibly here receiving your confession. Do not be ashamed, neither be afraid, and hide nothing. Rather, do not be afraid to tell all that you have done, so that you may receive forgiveness from our Lord Jesus Christ. Behold, His Holy Icon is before us. I am only the witness, bearing testimony before Him of all that you shall say. But, if you conceal anything you shall have the greater sin. Take heed, therefore, that having come to the Divine Physician, you not depart unhealed.

May God Who pardoned David through Nathan the Prophet when he confessed his sins, Peter who wept bitterly for his denial, the Harlot weeping at His feet, the Publican and the Prodigal;

May our same Merciful God forgive you all things, through me a sinner, both in this world and in the world to come, and set you uncondemned before His terrible Judgment Seat. (In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit...)

Now, having no further care for the sins which you have confessed, depart in peace; knowing that your sins are as far from you as the east is from the west!

 

[Anhelyna]

To emphasise in a practical way what Fr Matt said about the priest being a witness:

My priest is very careful that, even when we are both standing before the Icon of Christ at the Iconostas , he is just behind me - so my attention is always on Christ , not him [ Father]. This drives home the point that my confession of my failings is made to Christ Himself.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Confession in Orthodoxy is also a real healing process. The legality just isn't there. It's all centered around taking the wounds and healing them. Counseling is given, advice, ideas, understanding, and hope. Father is always encouraging and never focuses on guilt and the bad things. I went to confession with a monk once. That WAS a touch intimidating I must say. He was intense, but kind. I've done confession with the Greek priest in our area twice---HE'S AMAZING! I felt so blessed when I was done.

 

[Markie Boy]

So - if the priest is only a witness what about this passage:

What how does John 20:23 fit with things - If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

And I do understand only God can forgive sins. Catholics say this comes thru the priest, but it's still God. Does Orthodoxy say it's not thru the priest, and he's just a witness? And how does that fit with this passage?

Not debating - just learning

 

[ArmyMatt]

So - if the priest is only a witness what about this passage:

What how does John 20:23 fit with things - If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

And I do understand only God can forgive sins. Catholics say this comes thru the priest, but it's still God. Does Orthodoxy say it's not thru the priest, and he's just a witness? And how does that fit with this passage?

Not debating - just learning

no, it's through the priest.

 

[All4Christ]

What the priest does, God ratifies; just as the Master confirms the sentences of the servants. (paraphrase from St John Chrysostom’s On the Priesthood)

 

[AMM]

So can we say that the priest forgives sins in confession? As long as we understand that it's God working through the priest, is there anything objectionable to saying that the priest forgives sins or withholds forgiveness, as the case may be?

 

[ArmyMatt]

if you read or hear the prayer of absolution, only God forgives the sin. so we would not say that the priest forgives the sin, unless the sin was against the priest.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I've sometimes wondered at the nuances myself. Because I know God forgives, and the priest is only a witness. Yet Jesus said "whoever's sins you forgive, are forgiven."

So ... would we say that the priest pronounces God's forgiveness?

Yet it can also be true that a person has something within themselves - like maybe purposely holding back the nature or scope of the sin, or maybe worse yet, full intention of going out and doing it again with no struggle against it at all - if he intentionally deceives the priest on this - then perhaps God does not forgive?

Or at the same time, we can be forgiven for sins we never bring to confession? I suspect minor missing of the mark is common and ongoing, and often forgotten before one returns to confession, though if we are aware we may ask God ourselves.

I remember reading (was it Fr Alexander Schmemann?) explaining that confession was at one point canonically a means of returning to the Church and being granted re-entry, like a new baptism almost? It was really for reconciling after one had committed sins grave enough that they put themselves outside of communion? Which makes more sense of us continually confessing minor faults (and agrees with the letter of St. John concerning forgiveness) ... and also makes sense of the necessity of the priest in Sacramental confession.



Of course being Greek it's just as much about spiritual guidance at the same time, though I've noticed my priest says less and less over time. Maybe that makes sense too. (Several years ago he would make comments to me by way of guidance about things that happened without it being in confession - I guess the youngest lambs need extra milk lol.)



I do find myself much less often trying to sort out wanting to exactly understand such things - rather instead there is great benefit in just doing them. Maybe it's old western habits causing me to wonder, but I do tend to have the sort of mind that wants to figure out details.

 

[All4Christ]

I've sometimes wondered at the nuances myself. Because I know God forgives, and the priest is only a witness. Yet Jesus said "whoever's sins you forgive, are forgiven."

So ... would we say that the priest pronounces God's forgiveness?

Yet it can also be true that a person has something within themselves - like maybe purposely holding back the nature or scope of the sin, or maybe worse yet, full intention of going out and doing it again with no struggle against it at all - if he intentionally deceives the priest on this - then perhaps God does not forgive?

Or at the same time, we can be forgiven for sins we never bring to confession? I suspect minor missing of the mark is common and ongoing, and often forgotten before one returns to confession, though if we are aware we may ask God ourselves.

I remember reading (was it Fr Alexander Schmemann?) explaining that confession was at one point canonically a means of returning to the Church and being granted re-entry, like a new baptism almost? It was really for reconciling after one had committed sins grave enough that they put themselves outside of communion? Which makes more sense of us continually confessing minor faults (and agrees with the letter of St. John concerning forgiveness) ... and also makes sense of the necessity of the priest in Sacramental confession.



Of course being Greek it's just as much about spiritual guidance at the same time, though I've noticed my priest says less and less over time. Maybe that makes sense too. (Several years ago he would make comments to me by way of guidance about things that happened without it being in confession - I guess the youngest lambs need extra milk lol.)



I do find myself much less often trying to sort out wanting to exactly understand such things - rather instead there is great benefit in just doing them. Maybe it's old western habits causing me to wonder, but I do tend to have the sort of mind that wants to figure out details.

Father also mentioned something about sacramental confession being a way to restore communion with the Church.

That said, it’s also a gift to us though, not a legalistic requirement.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Father also mentioned something about sacramental confession being a way to restore communion with the Church.

That said, it’s also a gift to us though, not a legalistic requirement.

Right, thank you for making that distinction. It is most important not to veer that way.

I guess I never think of it as a legalistic requirement, though at least once I remember that I did not receive the Eucharist and went to confession first instead because it seemed the right thing to do. (It's funny maybe, but conscience is a bigger indicator to me in such cases than legalism.)

 

[All4Christ]

Right, thank you for making that distinction. It is most important not to veer that way.

I guess I never think of it as a legalistic requirement, though at least once I remember that I did not receive the Eucharist and went to confession first instead because it seemed the right thing to do. (It's funny maybe, but conscience is a bigger indicator to me in such cases than legalism.)

Right. It’s one of those things that has two (probably more than two) parts to it. It’s a gift, but it still isn’t optional. We still need to properly prepare for the Eucharist, which does mean being in communion and being “right with” both God and our brethren. That said, it doesn’t mean you have to go to confession each week that you go to communion. Regular confession is important in conjunction with guidance from your spiritual father or priest.

 

[All4Christ]

Also, despite the need for sacramental confession, we need to ask for forgiveness from God every day, not just through sacramental confession.

 

[All4Christ]

Right. It’s one of those things that has two (probably more than two) parts to it. It’s a gift, but it still isn’t optional. We still need to properly prepare for the Eucharist, which does mean being in communion and being “right with” both God and our brethren. That said, it doesn’t mean you have to go to confession each week that you go to communion. Regular confession is important in conjunction with guidance from your spiritual father or priest.

Admittedly I’m not the best at following my own advice

 

[AMM]

if you read or hear the prayer of absolution, only God forgives the sin. so we would not say that the priest forgives the sin, unless the sin was against the priest.

So then how do we understand John 20:23?

 

[ArmyMatt]

So then how do we understand John 20:23?

if a sin against a bishop or priest, he can ban you from communion until you finish a penance or whatever. not so simply between laity.