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Faithful Scuff

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Now, Was Jesus death on the cross "Once and for all"?
I don't believe we confess our sins for forgiveness that would nullify what Jesus did on the cross, we confess for healing and growth. After all Jesus died for ALL sins not jut for the righteous but the un righteous as well all we have to do is accept it.

1 John 2:2 (ESV)
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

God forgave our sins over 2000 years ago on the cross, all we have to do is accept that forgiveness.

Acts 10:43 (ESV)
43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

This maybe to keep our sins in the forefront so we can with the help of our brothers and sisters learn to over come them. I have been involved in a group of guys that would confess our sins and believe me when its the guys you hang around with you work at not sinning.

Luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. Jesus is the only way to God the Father.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

So Jesus filled the gap that was there between God and everyone else including the jews.
 
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Strong in Him

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I agree with "Lettuce" that the "teach us HOW to pray" request from the apostles, came during the time of the OLD covenant.

Don't know about that.
Jeremiah prophesied that God would make a new covenant with his people - because the old one had been broken, by them, so often.
That New Covenant was brought in by Jesus. As soon as God himself was walking around on earth, everything was different; - a new era had begun. Jesus SEALED that covenant; the one that he had already brought in, taught and demonstrated, with his blood. If you are saying that this new covenant was not operating until it had been sealed; the more I think about it, I think not.

Because, like I said, that would make almost all of Jesus' teaching pointless and ineffective.
Don't like that Jesus said "forgive your enemies"? - don't worry, that was under the old covenant.
Bit uncomfortable with Jesus asking us to take up our cross, our give to the poor? Don't worry, that was all under the old covenant.
And when you consider that we are not under the old covenant; it doesn't make sense.

So for me to believe that 'I have to go back and confess a second time for the finished work of Christ' 2000 years ago', would be the equivalent of spitting on his finished work IMO.

What do you mean by "confess again the finished work of Christ?
I'm talking about confessing, and saying sorry to God, when we sin - for which there is Scriptural teaching.

IMO, NOT saying sorry for our sin - taking it for granted as that God will forgive there is no need to ask him; is treating his grace lightly and disrespectfully.

I think that point is summed up with the scriptural misunderstanding of those who use Hebrews 6 to wrongly prove you can lose your initial salvation, when scripture says.

Hebrews 6:6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

You realise that Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians who were being tempted to escape the persecution of Christians by returning to the synagogues as Jews?
For them to be accepted by the synagogues, they would have had to deny that Jesus was the Messiah - completely renounce their faith and repent of their views. It seems that some were planning to do this, but turn back and become Christians again once the threat of persecution was over.

The writer of "Hebrews" is saying that this is not possible - they can't confess Christ as Messiah and Lord, publicly deny him as both, and then turn back again and change their mind afterwards. He is urging them to stand firm in their new faith.
Jesus himself said that if someone is ashamed of Christ, he will be ashamed of them. He also taught about not starting to do something and then turning back, giving up or not seeing it through.

My Lord was crucified once for my sins....past, present, future. And any confession of sin that I make now, is not for the purpose of 'BEING forgiven eternally'.

So if you deliberately disobeyed God and refused to confess, you believe that it's ok because God has forgiven you already?

Do I sin less than when I first believed?????.....OOOOOH YES!!!

Yes, but you still sin - as we all do.
The whole point is that WHEN we sin - even if it's only a little and is getting less each time - we say "sorry" to God and ask for forgiveness.
The idea that we DON'T need to confess our sin, is wrong. Even though Jesus knew we would sin before we did it, even though he has made provision, paid the price and reconciled us to God, and all this is from him and not what we deserve - when we sin, we still need to say "Lord, I'm sorry, I failed you; please forgive me and make me clean."

And I don't believe He 'temporally' judges, chastens, scourges me, unless I willingly refuse to rightly judge and repent when convicted of sin.

That's all that I'm saying; we repent when we're convicted of sin.
It is not "spitting on the finished work of Christ" to do this - it is necessary.
 
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Hillsage

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So, if you killed someone u don't need to ask God for forgiveness?
Do you have to ask God? Or do you just have to 'tell the priest' and get absolution from him as well as a good penance like 3 hail Mary's and 4 Our Father's....like a good Catholic? That's all I was ever taught and did, when I was a good Catholic. o_O
 
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shaheem white

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Do you have to ask God? Or do you just have to 'tell the priest' and get absolution from him as well as a good penance like 3 hail Mary's and 4 Our Father's....like a good Catholic? That's all I was ever taught and did, when I was a good Catholic. o_O
Are you asking me that question?
 
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Faithful Scuff

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ok I have been doing some reading and have a couple of thoughts.

One; being in Ephesians below “Positional” forgiveness, or judicial forgiveness is what we receive when we are born again.
Ephesians 1:6–8 (ESV)
6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight

Two; now in 1 John it is different in that it's a “relational,” or “familial,” forgiveness like between a dad and a child. When the child fails to obey or falls short of expectations the relationship is damaged. Not until the child asks for forgiveness will the relationship be restored.
1 John 1:9 (ESV)
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Our fellowship will suffer if we don't ask for forgiveness of our sins and discipline could very well soon follow. I also don't believe that we can have good fellowship with unconfessed sins. The verse below could be one example of how our fellowship with the Father could suffer by our actions or unconfessed sins.

1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.
 
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Hillsage

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Don't know about that.
Jeremiah prophesied that God would make a new covenant with his people - because the old one had been broken, by them, so often.
That New Covenant was brought in by Jesus. As soon as God himself was walking around on earth, everything was different; - a new era had begun. Jesus SEALED that covenant; the one that he had already brought in, taught and demonstrated, with his blood. If you are saying that this new covenant was not operating until it had been sealed; the more I think about it, I think not.

Because, like I said, that would make almost all of Jesus' teaching pointless and ineffective.
Don't like that Jesus said "forgive your enemies"? - don't worry, that was under the old covenant.
Bit uncomfortable with Jesus asking us to take up our cross, our give to the poor? Don't worry, that was all under the old covenant.
And when you consider that we are not under the old covenant; it doesn't make sense.
I wasn't in complete agreement with Lettuce above. I only agreed that Jesus spoke "forgive us as we forgive others" during the time of the 'still existing' old covenant.

What do you mean by "confess again the finished work of Christ?
I'm talking about confessing, and saying sorry to God, when we sin - for which there is Scriptural teaching.

IMO, NOT saying sorry for our sin - taking it for granted as that God will forgive there is no need to ask him; is treating his grace lightly and disrespectfully.
I see nothing saying we have to say we're sorry for our sin. Neither to God, nor to man. REPENT yes, but 'sorry'...Not scriptural. I have repented for sins I was never 'sorry' for. I committed them, I enjoyed committing them, would have even loved to continue committing them. But when I was convicted of them as being wrong and contrary to the nature of God, I repented and got SAVED from them.

So if you deliberately disobeyed God and refused to confess, you believe that it's ok because God has forgiven you already?
I'm saying there is no scripture saying I have to confess those sins to God, that I know of. If you do know of one, then just post it. This whole thread started with 1John which says nothing about WHO we are to be confessing to.

1JO 1:7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Do we confess our sins to restore our RELATIONSHIP with God again? NO! We 'confess our sins one unto another' to restore our 'fellowship with one another' which also restores it 'with God'. After initially confessing to God, I see confession to 'others' as being very consistent with scripture.

The idea that we DON'T need to confess our sin, is wrong. Even though Jesus knew we would sin before we did it, even though he has made provision, paid the price and reconciled us to God, and all this is from him and not what we deserve - when we sin, we still need to say "Lord, I'm sorry, I failed you; please forgive me and make me clean."
I have NEVER said "we DON'T need to confess our sin".

That's all that I'm saying; we repent when we're convicted of sin.
It is not "spitting on the finished work of Christ" to do this - it is necessary.
It is 'spitting on the finished work' if you act like it isn't finished unless you repent. If you think you have to do it to maintain the eternal salvation which established your relationship to God. I repent to maintain my temporal salvation and fellowship with both God and man.
 
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Hillsage

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Are you asking me that question?
No bro. ^_^ I'm asking the Roman Catholic. :liturgy:

PS If you'll notice in the top left corner of the 'quote box' of that post, it says; "Goatee said:"
That tells anyone reading your post 'who' you are responding to. And under Goatee's icon, it says he is a Catholic. I only tell you this because I know you're still relatively new here.
 
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shaheem white

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No bro. ^_^ I'm asking the Roman Catholic. :liturgy:

PS If you'll notice in the top left corner of the 'quote box' of that post, it says; "Goatee said:"
That tells anyone reading your post 'who' you are responding to. I only tell you this because I know you're still relatively new here.
lol. Oh ok, yeah i get so confused. I get notifications and I read them like "are they talking to me?" but I see that even though i started the quote, people are able to converse with each other through my quote and since it's my quote I receive all the notifications. right?
 
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RaymondG

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So, if you killed someone u don't need to ask God for forgiveness?
If a man has wronged his brother he must first go to the brother and ask forgiveness and then go to the alter. I believe you will have to get forgiveness from the person you killed first.
 
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Hillsage

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lol. Oh ok, yeah i get so confused. I get notifications and I read them like "are they talking to me?" but I see that even though i started the quote, people are able to converse with each other through my quote and since it's my quote I receive all the notifications. right?
Sort of depends on how you set things up. I get 'emails' every time someone responds to 'any thread' I've posted on. But in the 'ALERT' box, at the top of 'this page', you only get an 'Alert' if someone responded specifically to you, and one of your posts.

I usually only spend time on a few threads, just because I can't keep up with any more. Heck, I can't even keep up with 'one' sometimes.
 
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iwbswiaihl2

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[I'm saying there is no scripture saying I have to confess those sins to God, that I know of. If you do know of one, then just post it. This whole thread started with 1John which says nothing about WHO we are to be confessing to.

I have NEVER said "we DON'T need to confess our sin"QUOTE]

I cut out all your post here except these two statements that you made in this post, isn't there something odd about your first statement when just a couple of block down you made the next statement?
 
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Hillsage

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[I'm saying there is no scripture saying I have to confess those sins to God, that I know of. If you do know of one, then just post it. This whole thread started with 1John which says nothing about WHO we are to be confessing to.

I have NEVER said "we DON'T need to confess our sin"QUOTE]

I cut out all your post here except these two statements that you made in this post, isn't there something odd about your first statement when just a couple of block down you made the next statement?
If it seems odd, it's probably because this whole subject is so multifaceted from my POV. And because it is, I think that you are just missing the nuances of those many facets I think about.

The first paragraph is speaking about confessing specifically to GOD. I said I don't have to confess to Him again because I accepted Jesus as the savior for all my sins. Not just the ones I committed up to that point. In actuality, no one really confesses all their sins, upon first coming to Christ, do they? I know I confessed I was a 'sinner', but there was no way I could confess every sin I'd ever committed until that day. I was 22 years old and couldn't have begun to confess all my 'sins'. So if it wasn't necessary the first time, where in scripture does it say I have to 'confess to GOD' again?

The second paragraph is talking specifically about confessing my 'sins' after coming to Christ as my savior concerning ALL my sins. No matter whether they were sins past, present or yet to be. But this time, I'm talking about confessing NOT to God, but to a co-worker/brother/sister/wife/CATHOLIC PRIEST (that's for you Goatee ;)).


Let me mention some of the 'facets' I find 'in scripture' which I consider in dealing with this subject.

Confession or Repentance
'eternal' forgiveness OR 'temporal' forgiveness
forgiveness of sins 'in heaven' OR Forgiveness of sins 'on earth'
forgiveness 'from God' OR forgiveness 'from man'
saving 'spirit' OR saving 'soul '
'Imputed' righteousness OR 'imparted' righteousness
'You in Christ' OR 'Christ in you'
Justification OR sanctification
Once Saved Always Saved OR Progressive salvation

Scripture deals with all of these. And for us to 'rightly understand' we must 'rightly divide' scripture to come to a fuller knowledge of 'the whole truth'.

Does this help? :) Or confuse even more? :confused:
 
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ViaCrucis

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Do you have to ask God? Or do you just have to 'tell the priest' and get absolution from him as well as a good penance like 3 hail Mary's and 4 Our Father's....like a good Catholic? That's all I was ever taught and did, when I was a good Catholic. o_O

I think this is a misunderstanding. Lutherans, like Catholics, have private confession. Lutheran churches don't have "confessional booths", but that's primarily because the confessional booth didn't come into vogue until after the Reformation. In Lutheranism private confession is practiced and encouraged on the basis of Holy Scripture, where in the Gospel of John Christ says to His apostles, "whoever's sins you remit are remitted them", this is also connected with the concept of "the Keys" mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew, where Christ says to St. Peter, "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Lutherans disagree with Roman Catholics on a few important points, most chiefly that we don't believe the Office of the Keys is the sole possession of the Bishop of Rome, but are instead the common possession of the whole Christian Church; but that the Church exercises this through those called and ordained as ministers of Christ's Word and Sacraments (i.e. pastors) for the good order of the Church. It is through the pastoral office that the apostolic ministry, as given by Christ in John's Gospel, is retained; as it was the Apostles who personally in the beginning ordained bishops and presbyters to shepherd Christ's flock and to carry on their mission and ministry. Thus the Keys are not derived from the authority of the Pope, as it is in Catholicism, but Christ to the whole Church, and it is the Church from which pastors (bishops and presbyters) function as ministers of Christ and servants of Christ's Church to this end. And it does not bestow a special "sacerdotal" quality to Christ's ministers, but rather this holy vocation and calling exists for good order; there is nothing inherently "special" about a pastor as opposed to a layman, it is simply that for good order the Church has ministers to officiate the office of the Keys and to serve the Church by preaching the Word and administering the Sacraments. Thus the pastor speaks, not in his own authority, but in Christ's name, the forgiveness of sins. When the pastor says, "Your sins are forgiven" he does so in persona Christi.

But in both the Catholic and Lutheran way of thinking, it is Christ who forgives us, the words of absolution are means through which this forgiveness is declared and given. The one speaking the words is declaring Christ's Word, not his own word. In this way the servant of Christ is obedient to Christ in the preaching of the Word to which he has been called and ordained.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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iwbswiaihl2

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So, if you killed someone u don't need to ask God for forgiveness?
I am going to post 2 Sam 12:1-13 where Nathan confronted King David who I believe most would say that he was saved and is now heaven, tell me where you can find in the account where he ask for forgiveness for having had Bathsheba's husband killed. Nathan says David had killed him by the people in v9. 1-13
Then the Lord sent Nathan to David. And he came to him, and said to him: “There were two men in one city, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had exceedingly many flocks and herds. 3 But the poor man had nothing, except one little ewe lamb which he had bought and nourished; and it grew up together with him and with his children. It ate of his own food and drank from his own cup and lay in his bosom; and it was like a daughter to him. 4 And a traveler came to the rich man, who refused to take from his own flock and from his own herd to prepare one for the wayfaring man who had come to him; but he took the poor man’s lamb and prepared it for the man who had come to him.”

5 So David’s anger was greatly aroused against the man, and he said to Nathan, “As the Lord lives, the man who has done this shall surely die! 6 And he shall restore fourfold for the lamb, because he did this thing and because he had no pity.”

7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! 9 Why have you despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. 10 Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11 Thus says the Lord: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.’” 13 So David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”
And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die.


What did David do except confess that he had sinned against the Lord? And his sin was put away.
Lev 5:5 -6 ‘And it shall be, when he is guilty in any of these matters, that he shall confess that he has sinned in that thing; 6 and he shall bring his trespass offering to the Lord for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin. Ps 32:5 I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I have not hidden. I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,” And You forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah 1 John1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Jesus is our High Priest who makes intercession for believers.
 
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gordonhooker

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If a man has wronged his brother he must first go to the brother and ask forgiveness and then go to the alter. I believe you will have to get forgiveness from the person you killed first.

I love your work... I had to read it a second time.... LOL
 
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Hillsage

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I think this is a misunderstanding.
I'm not sure what exactly was a misunderstanding for you? I was a Roman Catholic for 19 years. And if catechism memory serves me, it was the priest who granted both 'absolution from my sin' as well as determining the penance' I had to pay in prayers for....for...well I'm not really sure what the 'Hail Mary's' and 'our Fathers' and 'good act of contrition' prayers were for. Maybe you do, or Goatee may want to weigh in. :help:

Lutherans, like Catholics, have private confession. Lutheran churches don't have "confessional booths", but that's primarily because the confessional booth didn't come into vogue until after the Reformation.

I don't know what synod of Lutheran you are ViaCrucis, but at 23 I married an American synod Lutheran and attended that church for 2 years. If there was any kind of 'private confession' it was certainly never preached or taught about. And I taught the high school Sunday school and led the youth group, so it isn't like I wasn't involved.

In Lutheranism private confession is practiced and encouraged on the basis of Holy Scripture,
But it's a practice which I NOW believe you can say about any church. Wouldn't you agree? The Catholics are obviously more famous for their confession booth though.

where in the Gospel of John Christ says to His apostles, "whoever's sins you remit are remitted them", this is also connected with the concept of "the Keys" mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew, where Christ says to St. Peter, "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
An in depth study of this passage will reveal it was translated wrongly. We don't bind anything on earth to THEN have it bound in heaven, based upon our authority. We 'declare bound on earth' that which 'IS bound in heaven' first. YLT does a better job of revealing this;

MAT 16:19 and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'

That POV happens to also line up with the Lord's teaching us HOW to pray . "Thy will be done on earth AS IT IS in heaven." And now I can say, my POV has a second witness in scripture. :idea:

But in both the Catholic and Lutheran way of thinking, it is Christ who forgives us, the words of absolution are means through which this forgiveness is declared and given. The one speaking the words is declaring Christ's Word, not his own word. In this way the servant of Christ is obedient to Christ in the preaching of the Word to which he has been called and ordained.

So, how does your "declared Christ's Word" from a man, differ from the 'declared righteousness of Christ' which I received from Jesus, at my initial salvation for ALL MY SINS...be they past present and future....remembered or forgotten? I don't believe they do. But, as I said earlier I do believe we can ALL grant TEMPORAL forgiveness for the TEMPORAL consequence of sin this side of glory. And I'm sure my wife would agree, since she has forgiven me a few times. ^_^
 
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ViaCrucis

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I don't know what synod of Lutheran you are ViaCrucis, but at 23 I married an American synod Lutheran and attended that church for 2 years. If there was any kind of 'private confession' it was certainly never preached or taught about. And I taught the high school Sunday school and led the youth group, so it isn't like I wasn't involved.

All Lutheran synods/denominations, because it is explicitly taught in the Augsburg Confession, Article XI.

An in depth study of this passage will reveal it was translated wrongly. We don't bind anything on earth to THEN have it bound in heaven, based upon our authority. We 'declare bound on earth' that which 'IS bound in heaven' first. YLT does a better job of revealing this;

MAT 16:19 and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'

That POV happens to also line up with the Lord's teaching us HOW to pray . "Thy will be done on earth AS IT IS in heaven." And now I can say, my POV has a second witness in scripture. :idea:

The point isn't that a person has some sort of power; the words of absolution are about what Christ has done. The word, "Your sins are forgiven" are Christ's word to us, His Gospel. It's the same word which Christ instructs His apostles to preach when He tells them that the Gospel must be preached to every living creature, to baptize and make disciples, etc. It's Christ's word, the very word which creates faith (Romans 10:17) which is God's gracious gift to us (Ephesians 2:8-9).

So, how does your "declared Christ's Word" from a man, differ from the 'declared righteousness of Christ' which I received from Jesus,

It doesn't differ. It's the same Word. Because it's the preaching of the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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An in depth study of this passage will reveal it was translated wrongly. We don't bind anything on earth to THEN have it bound in heaven, based upon our authority. We 'declare bound on earth' that which 'IS bound in heaven' first. YLT does a better job of revealing this;

MAT 16:19 and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'

Here's the Greek text,

καὶ δώσω σοι τὰς κλεῖς τῆς βασιλείας τῶν οὐρανῶν καὶ ὃ ἐὰν δήσῃς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται δεδεμένον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ ὃ ἐὰν λύσῃς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται λελυμένον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς

The verb ἔσται is future tense, "will be".

kai ho ean deses tes ges estai dedemenon en tois ouranois
and whatever having been bound on the earth shall be bound in the heavens

The verb δήσῃς is in the aorist, indicating an undefined past tense; while ἔσται is firmly in the future tense. The interesting case is δεδεμένον which in the middle-passive voice, "I comb my hair every morning", "We are getting a new car".

The NAS renders ἔσται δεδεμένον as "shall have been bound", the implication here is that whatever having been bound on earth shall have also been bound in heaven. There is still a vital shall here indicating a causal connection, but it is likely more than that.

If anything, having looked at this passage more deeply only seems to emphasize more strongly the point here, and has given me more to think about--but more along the lines that in the binding/loosening on earth makes it already true in heaven. Indeed, when the pastor speaks in persona Christi the words of absolution it is the very life-giving word of God that our sins are truly forgiven in Christ, for indeed all sins are forgiven in and by the death and resurrection of Christ our God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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