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But this is an important topic. Very important! What picture does the belief of everlasting torment paint of the character of God? Such a teaching is contrary to everything grace stands for.
According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom/Gehenna.
Where the Bible describes final punishment, on the other hand, fire completely destroys and consumes.
Annihilationism and conditional immortality is just recently within the past 10 years a doctrine explored by evangelicals. Prior to this time it has mainly been a doctrine of 7th Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses. As is the case of "soul sleep" is mainly a 7th Day Adventist and JW doctrine.I see. All good. One needs to be aware of how other view the relationship between tradition and Scripture as it affects how one can persuade others in a conversation. I respect your view. You probably won't persuade any Evangelical with the approach you are using.
Annihilationism and conditional immortality is just recently within the past 10 years a doctrine explored by evangelicals. Prior to this time it has mainly been a doctrine of 7th Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses.
Well, I asked what you thought, and you answered. But now I would request that you explain why you believe Conditional Immortality is heresy.
The Bibles says that Paul "reasoned with them from the Scriptures" (Acts 17:2). Are you willing to do the same? I certainly was reasoning from the Bible in the OP, and I'm thankful that others, even if they disagree with my view, have also been reasoning from the Bible. Will you join us?
I'm a fair sportsmen. Meaning I do see how you can say the above and leave the matter open. As I can also point every illustration of fire and burning given by Jesus does not beg the answer be extinction.Again, the scene is in the intermediate state, a state from which all mankind will one day be raised. The fact that the unredeemed are in a state of torment awaiting resurrection (assuming we are to understand the story as teaching as much) does not, it seems to me, tell us what the nature of final punishment is. I certainly don't see it as a lens through which the myriad other texts in Scripture about final punishment should be read.
Annihilationism and conditional immortality is just recently within the past 10 years a doctrine explored by evangelicals. Prior to this time it has mainly been a doctrine of 7th Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses. As is the case of "soul sleep" is mainly a 7th Day Adventist and JW doctrine.
I'm a fair sportsmen. Meaning I do see how you can say the above and leave the matter open. As I can also point every illustration of fire and burning given by Jesus does not beg the answer be extinction.
'Heresy' is such a strong word, almost a dirty word in Christian circles. This is off topic, but I was called a heretic because I believe 1 John 3:6, and the one calling me a heretic believed 1 John 1:8!
I don't see morality being conditional at all. I see no Biblical evidence for annialation at all.
God’s Word teaches us what to believe. We learn specific truths from the Bible, sometimes called “doctrines”, or more simply “beliefs”. The Bible also teaches us to think like God thinks. The more we read and listen to His Word, the more our thought patterns become like His. In this opening post I will write about a specific belief called “conditional immortality” and will also try to help you see how the Bible trains us to think in patterns consistent with this belief.
Conditional immortality is a doctrine based on the Bible which says that people will live forever only under certain conditions. This doctrine can be seen quite clearly in many verses which discuss eternal life. In these verses a condition is either explicitly stated or else strongly implied. After this paragraph are some examples. Don’t rush through them. This is God’s Word and you will benefit by reading them slowly and thinking about them even if they are familiar to you:
We can see from these examples that God, through His Word, conditions us to think of eternal life (immortality) not as something that all humans automatically have no matter what, but rather as a special gift from God which depends on us meeting a condition: namely faith in Jesus Christ.
Sometimes, the condition given is that we live the kind of life and make the kind of decisions which demonstrate that we really do believe in Jesus. In these cases, there is still a “condition” and there is still “immortality”, but the condition is stated as an evidence of faith in Christ rather than simply faith itself. Here are two examples:
If you would like to see a few more verses where this pattern of conditional immortality can be seen, look up these verses and see if you can identify the condition and the immortality:
John 3:15, John 4:14, John 6:47, Romans 2:7, Romans 5:21, Titus 3:7, 1 John 5:11
There are other verses, but you have seen enough to see how clear and consistent this pattern is. We will live forever only by God’s grace which we receive only if we have faith in Jesus. Our faith is in a Savior who changes how we live.
Now, we might wonder about the “negative side” of conditional immortality. God holds out hope through gracious promises for those who believe in Christ. He also gives warnings of the tragic consequences for those who do not believe:
Consistency and Inconsistency
One of the many signs that the Bible is inspired by God is that it is consistent in what it teaches. This is true even though, from a human point of view, the Bible was written by many authors over a period of more than 1,400 years. The doctrine of conditional immortality is an example of Biblical consistency. On the one hand, from Genesis to Revelation the Bible never says that all people are immortal. It never says that the unrighteous will live forever. On the other hand, the Bible consistently offers eternal life to those who put their faith in Christ. “Conditional Immortality” is seen consistently throughout Scripture.
While the Bible is 100% consistent, we are not. The Bible is perfect, but our understanding of it is flawed. Even as Christians who really believe the Bible is God’s inerrant Word, and who really have put our faith in Jesus, and who really seek God’s truth, we still have errors mixed into our understanding. One sign of an imperfect understanding of the Bible is when part of what we believe is not consistent with the rest of what we believe. Another sign of misunderstanding is when something we believe requires us to talk in ways that are different from the way the Bible talks. Here is an example:
Can you see how the slogan on the t-shirt is inconsistent with the consistent Bible teaching about conditional immortality?
It’s not just t-shirts and bumper stickers that contain this inconsistent way of thinking. Good, godly, Christian pastors, authors, teachers, and others often think in terms of UN-conditional immortality. In other words, they believe and talk as if all people will live forever whether they are saved or not.
Seeing the relationship between the doctrine of conditional immortality and the doctrine of the final fate of the unrighteous clarifies the problem:
What do you think?
Do you believe that everyone is immortal no matter what?
How does your view on immortality influence your view on Hell?
Do you believe the Bible teaches Annihilationism, Eternal Conscious Torment, or Universalism?
Why?
This post is slightly modified from a post on my blog.
I wonder why Jesus neglected to mention that the wailing and gnashing of teeth would end at some point?
I'm a fair sportsmen. Meaning I do see how you can say the above and leave the matter open. As I can also point every illustration of fire and burning given by Jesus does not beg the answer be extinction.
As historical scholars have been demonstrating for years, in fact Jewish views before, during, and after the time of Christ were mixed. Yes, some of them believed in eternal torment, but others believed in annihilation. And as Dr. Instone-Brewer demonstrates in his chapter in A Consuming Passion: Essays on Hell and Immortality in Honor of Edward Fudge, Jesus used the language of those Jews who believed in annihilation, not eternal torment. Additionally, Dr. Papaioannou demonstrates in The Geography of Hell that Jesus' use of "Gehenna" would have brought to his listeners' minds the Old Testament Valley of the Son of Hinnom, which the OT promised in places like Jeremiah 7 would become the "valley of slaughter" where scavenging beasts and birds will not be frightened away from consuming the corpses of God's slain enemies.
1stcentury lady, I agree. I feel that the word "heresy" should be reserved for when someone who is presenting themselves as a Christian teaches false doctrines which are so serious that they are likely to destroy saving faith. I certainly would not call a different view on the nature of Hell "heresy". God Bless You!
It has already been shown in this thread that you are in error, but let's suppose you are right...No, the torment is self imposed. That's very fair.
It would be mean to be tormented by somebody
elses standards. But to have to live with yourself,
forever, that's extremely fair.
I didn't quote historical scholars, I quoted the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud.
It appears your historical scholars don't have a clue what the Jews believed. Note how you completely ignored my post and responded with a copy/paste which does not address anything I said.
In the verses I quoted please show me where "Jesus used the language of those Jews who believed in annihilation?" In two of the vss. Jesus mentioned a fate worse than death.
I didn't think evangelicals dwelt on creed's, nor those considered Church fathersYes, the heresies the Anti-Nicene church fathers battled were over the divinity of Jesus.
I didn't think evangelicals dwelt on creed's, nor those considered Church fathers
Are you suggesting if a person rejects Christ their good works( or lack of good works) should come into play as to what judgement they receive?Suppose someone dies at 20 years of age, not believing in God. This person had an opportunity to accept Jesus but wouldn't. This person, for the most part, did what he could to avoid causing suffering for others. How is it fair to torture him for all eternity in unimaginable pain for not believing in God? Please explain. I want a logical explanation of how you think that punishment is "extremely fair".
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