But this is an important topic. Very important! What picture does the belief of everlasting torment paint of the character of God? Such a teaching is contrary to everything grace stands for.
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But this is an important topic. Very important! What picture does the belief of everlasting torment paint of the character of God? Such a teaching is contrary to everything grace stands for.Well the gospel of grace, which reveals much of Gods character interests me. But on these kind of websites, I find many focus on other subjects of lesser importance. They seem to struggle understanding the more important topic
Well the gospel of grace, which reveals much of Gods character interests me. But on these kind of websites, I find many focus on other subjects of lesser importance. They seem to struggle understanding the more important topic
Well I've already given my opinion on that in my initial postBut this is an important topic. Very important! What picture does the belief of everlasting torment paint of the character of God? Such a teaching is contrary to everything grace stands for.
We can see from these examples that God, through His Word, conditions us to think of eternal life (immortality) not as something that all humans automatically have no matter what, but rather as a special gift from God which depends on us meeting a condition: namely faith in Jesus Christ.
Us ministers (I happen to be one)....
I don't trust that many either!Living people rarely go to Hell. In fact, I've never met a living person who ever had. You make the case that those who go to Hell are not granted everlasting life, which is true, and you construe it to mean that the soul of a dead man that will never be raised to life is somehow a living thing, even though it is quite clearly dead, and therefore it cannot exist if it is not granted everlasting life. By your understanding, even death isn't death. It seems to have a similar premise to the Gnostic heresy that believed that we are not raised to life after we die, but that we remain dead, in Heaven, forever. Who is it that returns with Christ to walk the Earth again? It is his church, his body of believers, who are raised to life. They don't return to haunt the place as a host of ghouls. By contrast, who isn't raised and will never walk the Earth again? Those who are in Hell will never walk the Earth again. They are dead, and they remain quite dead. There is no life in Hell.
I understand that some people can only accept a one-dimensional God, who seems to be extreme in every way except when it comes to wrath and judgment. They see him as a giant love-muffin. He is extreme in power, extreme in knowledge, extreme in his timelessness, extreme in wisdom, but downright finite when it comes to wrath. He must be totally baffled by human emotion, because he has no concept of negative emotion. Is this really the God you see when you read the Bible cover-to-cover? I don't.
You just lost me. I never trust a minister.
You just lost me. I never trust a minister.
Ok, but there is no weeping or gnashing or darkness in the story. Any other ideas?
Revelation 21: NKJV
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Reading your post leads me to think you don't believe we have souls.
I understand that some people can only accept a one-dimensional God, who seems to be extreme in every way except when it comes to wrath and judgment. They see him as a giant love-muffin. He is extreme in power, extreme in knowledge, extreme in his timelessness, extreme in wisdom, but downright finite when it comes to wrath. He must be totally baffled by human emotion, because he has no concept of negative emotion. Is this really the God you see when you read the Bible cover-to-cover? I don't.
if any one should give [the utterly wretched] an immortality, in which their misery should be deathless, and should offer the alternative, that if they shrank from existing eternally in the same misery they might be annihilated, and exist nowhere at all, nor in any condition, on the instant they would joyfully, nay exultantly, make election to exist always, even in such a condition, rather than not exist at all.
Not where people are sleeping then? It's getting complicated. The trip to hell has layovers. Why is that?
Yet the parable @SkyWriting posted is an illustration of pre judgement day suffering of the wicked. Where is there an illustration by Christ in support of annihilation as final punishment?
I am not an evangelical. And what Christians said in the past has just as much validity as what Christians say now if it is true.
I wonder why Jesus neglected to mention that the wailing and gnashing of teeth would end at some point?... Sure, the wicked will weep in sorrow and gnash their teeth in anger (Matt 13:42) upon realizing they have been excluded from God's kingdom and will not inherit eternal life, but nowhere is this weeping and gnashing said to go on forever.
I wonder why Jesus neglected to mention that the wailing and gnashing of teeth would end at some point?
The relevance is the illustration Christ gives in the parable:Conditionalism does not entail dying the pre-judgment-day suffering of the wicked, so I do not understand the relevance of the parable to this discussion.
Yet the illustration we have from Lazarus and the rich man shows the rich man tormented by flames, very thirsty but not consumed by the flames.In answer to your question, there are many. As just one example we can discuss, in his parable of the weeds Jesus says the weeds will be gathered and burned up, the Greek word κατακαίω meaning to burn down completely (Matt 13:30). Then in interpreting the parable, he says that like those weeds which are burned up, so his angels will throw the wicked into a fiery furnace (vv. 40–42). In so doing, Jesus alludes to Malachi 4:1–3 in which God promises that the wicked will be reduced to ashes beneath the feet of the righteous.
The importance of this parable teaching a literal truth is that before judgment day, souls are either comforted or tormented. No mercy is given the rich man as he was judged based on his wicked deeds on earth.
The illustration given by Christ here in Luke 16 shows a conscious soul in torment looking for relief and not being offered help. This should inform us of the Justice God has for those who reject His Son Jesus Christ.
Yet the illustration we have from Lazarus and the rich man shows the rich man tormented by flames, very thirsty but not consumed by the flames.
Burning, flames, melting etc. are indicative of Judment in the Bible. Burning down to ashes as in the tares reveals the works for what they are...of no substance or use to God. It does not have to mean total destruction or extinction as after the judgment the sentence is served.
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