stuart lawrence
Well-Known Member
Well if scholars and theologians declared anything heretical I wouldn't take much notice.
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age.......
1cor1:20
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Well if scholars and theologians declared anything heretical I wouldn't take much notice.The "them" with whom Paul reasoned were the Jews in the town of Berea. You're not Jewish by religion - your info says "christian" - so Paul's practise with Jews doesn't directly apply in this circumstance. As for why I think it is heresy, that would be because the Christians of long ago investigated it and declared it heresy.
The "them" with whom Paul reasoned were the Jews in the town of Berea. You're not Jewish by religion - your info says "christian" - so Paul's practise with Jews doesn't directly apply in this circumstance. As for why I think it is heresy, that would be because the Christians of long ago investigated it and declared it heresy.
I am not an evangelical. And what Christians said in the past has just as much validity as what Christians say now if it is true.Which ancient creed forbids annihilationism? Besides, if you are Evangelical arguing not to reason from Scripture because that verse is about Paul and the Jews is irrelevant. Evangelicals always try to establish what the Scriptures do teach on a given doctrine. If you aren't Evangelical then please note Mark Corbett is Evangelical which means any creed or previous church attitude regarding hell is moot if he can show annihilationism is better attested in Scripture than other doctrines in hell. To Evangelicals Scripture trumps creed. If you want to offer a persuasive argument to Mark you are going to have to address the Scriptures.
A minister once said: . . . Live forever with God, or without him
Found a typo: you accidentally put the word "immorality" instead of "immortality".Now, we might wonder about the “negative side” of conditional immorality. God holds out hope through gracious promises for those who believe in Christ. He also gives warnings of the tragic consequences for those who do not believe:
Thing is, the Bible is a big book. We can all quote scripture to support our particular view can't we.Stuart, thanks for sharing some thoughts.
Us ministers (I happen to be one) say a lot of things. A minister saying something does not make it automatically true. We should be like the Bereans, who "examined the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so" (Acts 17:11 CSB).
You refer to a minister saying "Live forever with God, or without him." In the OP I shared many scripture passages which show why this type of statement is wrong. Where does the Bible ever state that anyone will live forever without God?
I don't mean to say that it's wrong to quote other Christians, including ministers and teachers. I am inviting you to examine the Scriptures together with me and others to see if what "they" say is true (and to see if what I say is true!).
Biblical truth isn't determined by majority vote. According to Jesus, the majority of people professing to be His followers are not on the right track....what Christians said in the past has just as much validity as what Christians say now if it is true.
Found a typo: you accidentally put the word "immorality" instead of "immortality".
Great post, by the way! I fully agree with your conclusion that the Bible teaches conditional immortality.
What do you think?
Do you believe that everyone is immortal no matter what?
How does your view on immortality influence your view on Hell?
Do you believe the Bible teaches Annihilationism, Eternal Conscious Torment, or Universalism?
Why?
God’s Word teaches us what to believe. We learn specific truths from the Bible, sometimes called “doctrines”, or more simply “beliefs”. The Bible also teaches us to think like God thinks. The more we read and listen to His Word, the more our thought patterns become like His. In this opening post I will write about a specific belief called “conditional immortality” and will also try to help you see how the Bible trains us to think in patterns consistent with this belief.
Conditional immortality is a doctrine based on the Bible which says that people will live forever only under certain conditions. This doctrine can be seen quite clearly in many verses which discuss eternal life. In these verses a condition is either explicitly stated or else strongly implied. After this paragraph are some examples. Don’t rush through them. This is God’s Word and you will benefit by reading them slowly and thinking about them even if they are familiar to you:
We can see from these examples that God, through His Word, conditions us to think of eternal life (immortality) not as something that all humans automatically have no matter what, but rather as a special gift from God which depends on us meeting a condition: namely faith in Jesus Christ.
Sometimes, the condition given is that we live the kind of life and make the kind of decisions which demonstrate that we really do believe in Jesus. In these cases, there is still a “condition” and there is still “immortality”, but the condition is stated as an evidence of faith in Christ rather than simply faith itself. Here are two examples:
If you would like to see a few more verses where this pattern of conditional immortality can be seen, look up these verses and see if you can identify the condition and the immortality:
John 3:15, John 4:14, John 6:47, Romans 2:7, Romans 5:21, Titus 3:7, 1 John 5:11
There are other verses, but you have seen enough to see how clear and consistent this pattern is. We will live forever only by God’s grace which we receive only if we have faith in Jesus. Our faith is in a Savior who changes how we live.
Now, we might wonder about the “negative side” of conditional immorality. God holds out hope through gracious promises for those who believe in Christ. He also gives warnings of the tragic consequences for those who do not believe:
Consistency and Inconsistency
One of the many signs that the Bible is inspired by God is that it is consistent in what it teaches. This is true even though, from a human point of view, the Bible was written by many authors over a period of more than 1,400 years. The doctrine of conditional immortality is an example of Biblical consistency. On the one hand, from Genesis to Revelation the Bible never says that all people are immortal. It never says that the unrighteous will live forever. On the other hand, the Bible consistently offers eternal life to those who put their faith in Christ. “Conditional Immortality” is seen consistently throughout Scripture.
While the Bible is 100% consistent, we are not. The Bible is perfect, but our understanding of it is flawed. Even as Christians who really believe the Bible is God’s inerrant Word, and who really have put our faith in Jesus, and who really seek God’s truth, we still have errors mixed into our understanding. One sign of an imperfect understanding of the Bible is when part of what we believe is not consistent with the rest of what we believe. Another sign of misunderstanding is when something we believe requires us to talk in ways that are different from the way the Bible talks. Here is an example:
Can you see how the slogan on the t-shirt is inconsistent with the consistent Bible teaching about conditional immortality?
It’s not just t-shirts and bumper stickers that contain this inconsistent way of thinking. Good, godly, Christian pastors, authors, teachers, and others often think in terms of UN-conditional immortality. In other words, they believe and talk as if all people will live forever whether they are saved or not.
Seeing the relationship between the doctrine of conditional immortality and the doctrine of the final fate of the unrighteous clarifies the problem:
What do you think?
Do you believe that everyone is immortal no matter what?
How does your view on immortality influence your view on Hell?
Do you believe the Bible teaches Annihilationism, Eternal Conscious Torment, or Universalism?
Why?
This post is slightly modified from a post on my blog.
I should not obsess about eternity, but keep my mind on today's tasks. Matthew 6:34 (KJV) Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
The unsaved spirit is not immortal, because it has not been born again, but it does not die when the body does. It goes to the grave. So the Rich Man and Lazarus story is a moot point seeing as they have not gone through the resurrection yet. But it does show the consciousness of the spirit. Another term is outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The resurrection is when they will be judged before God, and cast into the everlasting lake of fire that was made for the immortal Satan and his angels. But because man is mortal until born again, those who are cast into the lake of fire will simply perish. IMO
Forgive me, but I'm not sure I understand how this answers the question you are attempting to answer. As the text you've bolded indicates, this story, whether to be taken literally or otherwise, is set in Hades—the underworld, the above of the dead, the so-called intermediate state—not in hell as the place of final punishment following the resurrection and judgment of the wicked.
Annihilationionism is a sweet sounding doctrine but the Bible is clear that those who are cast into the eternal lake of fire will be in torment for ever and ever..
We read in the Book of revelation . . .
The word "forever" doesn't always mean without end. How long was Jonah in the belly of the fish? According to the Bible, it was three days and nights (Jonah 1:7). Yet Jonah used the word "forever" in describing what he had experienced (2:6). And how about Sodom, it is said that it suffered the punishment of eternal fire (Jude 1:7). Do you still see it burning today?Annihilationionism is a sweet sounding doctrine but the Bible is clear that those who are cast into the eternal lake of fire will be in torment for ever and ever..
I must quote myself, "All important tenets are documented by
multiple authors spread over time."
Well the gospel of grace, which reveals much of Gods character interests me. But on these kind of websites, I find many focus on other subjects of lesser importance. They seem to struggle understanding the more important topicDoes knowing the truth about the character of God interest you?
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