Condemned already: not just Calvinist

[enoob57]

Show me the verse that says we are all deserving of being tortured without end?

Is hell real? Is hell eternal? | GotQuestions.org
A good treatise on the subject... but I have found when humanist thinking has prevailed enough to try to justify God in what He does with His stuff are already hardened in mind set beyond truth ever having an affect upon ...

 

[enoob57]

The problem with EDD (exhaustive divine determinism) is it came out of a 4th century Manichean gnostic monk Augustine... The first four centuries of church writing it is not found... this which breeds calvinism...

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I don't do ism's. I am a Paulist.

The issue is correct Biblical understanding of free will.

"Free will" is actually a notion of man (Pelagius), based on the assumption that responsibility for sin requires that man have free will.
The Bible does not teach the free will of man.
The word is used only once, in relation to one of the sacrifices, where it means voluntary.

However, man's notion of "free will," as it actually operates Biblically, means
"the power to choose voluntarily what one prefers, without external force or constraint."
Likewise, free will does not operate in a vacuum, it is not autonomous, it is governed by the disposition--what one likes or prefers.
Fallen man prefers self and sin, and that is what he chooses. His will is free.

God accomplishes his purposes by working in the dispositions of men, giving them to prefer his will, which they then freely choose without external force or constraint--the definition of free will.

So God's will is accomplished in accordance with the free will of man.
That is circular; i.e., the chosen are chosen because they chose.
The effect becomes the cause of the effect, cutting the Holy Spirit's work completely out of the loop.
They choose him because of God's work in their disposition giving them to prefer him.
"Chosen" means for God's working in their disposition.

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)

It is God who works in you both to will and to do (Philippians 2:13).

Not sure how free will and being elected through our choice cuts out the Holy Spirit. Our very first step is to repent from unbelief to belief. He then makes His home in us through his Holy Spirit . We are regenerated and made part of the Body of Christ.
Maybe we're just splitting hairs, not so sure though.
Thanks for engaging!
Blessings

 

[enoob57]

Not sure how free will and being elected through our choice cuts out the Holy Spirit. Our very first step is to repent from unbelief to belief. He then makes His home in us through his Holy Spirit . We are regenerated and made part of the Body of Christ.
Maybe we're just splitting hairs, not so sure though.
Thanks for engaging!
Blessings

Calvinist claim that a person must first be regenerated in order to respond to God's Truth. By believing as I do that God's Word is sufficient in Gospel presentation to effect belief in Jesus and in response to that Gospel truth a repentance of what one's self truly is sinner in need of salvation... this is cutting out the Holy Spirit in their estimation... yet the Scripture itself is a work of The Holy Spirit! Go figure!

 

[Clare73]

Not sure how free will and being elected through our choice cuts out the Holy Spirit.
Our very first step is to repent from unbelief to belief.

That requires a major work of the Holy Spirit to do.

He then makes His home in us through his Holy Spirit .
We are regenerated and made part of the Body of Christ.

Jesus places regeneration (new birth) before being able to even see/apprehend the kingdom of God.
(John 3:3)
The apostle teaches that the man without the Holy Spirit (without the new birth) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned (which Holy Spirit he does not have) and are, therefore, foolishness to him. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Maybe we're just splitting hairs, not so sure though.
Thanks for engaging!

Actually the differences are major.

 

[Clare73]

Calvinist claim that
a person must first be regenerated in order to respond to God's Truth.

Does that not put him in perfect agreement with Paul, who teaches that the man without the Holy Spirit (without the new birth) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned (which Holy Spirit he does not have) and are, therefore, foolishness to him? (1 Corinthians 2:14)

By believing as I do that God's Word is sufficient in Gospel presentation to effect belief in Jesus and in response to that Gospel truth a repentance of what one's self truly is sinner in need of salvation... this is cutting out the Holy Spirit in their estimation... yet
the Scripture itself is a work of The Holy Spirit! Go figure!

Indeed!
But there is also no understanding and acceptance of it without the work of the Holy Spirit in the individual (1 Corinthians 2:14).

So responding to God's truth requires the work of the Holy Spirit.
There is no doing it on your own without him.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The problem with EDD (exhaustive divine determinism) is it came out of a 4th century Manichean gnostic monk Augustine... The first four centuries of church writing it is not found... this which breed calvinism...

The problem with EDD is that it describes what simple logic says, that all things except First Cause are effects of causes. The first cause being God, then, all other things are effects (and no, that does not deny that effects also can cause further effects). The problem with EDD is that it assumes something true, that people don't like. It denies that any of our choices overrules God's plans. It does not deny that we choose.

So far, nowhere I have seen has shown how it can be that anything else besides God can be first cause, nor that mere chance has any causatory ability.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Calvinist claim that a person must first be regenerated in order to respond to God's Truth. By believing as I do that God's Word is sufficient in Gospel presentation to effect belief in Jesus and in response to that Gospel truth a repentance of what one's self truly is sinner in need of salvation... this is cutting out the Holy Spirit in their estimation... yet the Scripture itself is a work of The Holy Spirit! Go figure!

Yes I know. Seems strange to me that believing in Jesus Christ of Nazareth comes after He regenerates you with His Holy Spirit. Dosen't make a bit of sense. But I guess this is why the debate continues.
Thanks for sharing!
Blessings

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Does that not put him in perfect agreement with Paul, who teaches that the man without the Holy Spirit (without the new birth) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned (which Holy Spirit he does not have) and are, therefore, foolishness to him? (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Indeed!
But there is also no understanding and acceptance of it without the work of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:14).

So responding to God's truth requires the work of the Holy Spirit.
There is no doing it on your own without him.

Thanks for sharing. His Holy Spirit is absolutely necessary to enter the Kingdom of God. His Holy Spirit conforms us daily. I say repentance from unbelief to belief is first and that is in our control. The Holy Spirit certainly draws us in however one can reject His calling. So ultimately the choice is still ours.
Blessings

 

[Clare73]

Thanks for sharing. His Holy Spirit is absolutely necessary to enter the Kingdom of God. His Holy Spirit conforms us daily. I say repentance from unbelief to belief is first and that is in our control. The Holy Spirit certainly draws us in however one can reject His calling. So ultimately the choice is stil ours.
Blessings

Are you giving appropriate weight to what one actually prefers when they are making choices?

 

[bling]

Not sure how free will and being elected through our choice cuts out the Holy Spirit. Our very first step is to repent from unbelief to belief. He then makes His home in us through his Holy Spirit . We are regenerated and made part of the Body of Christ.
Maybe we're just splitting hairs, not so sure though.
Thanks for engaging!
Blessings

Our first step is, to just believe it is possible for an all Loving Creator could forgive us unconditionally and just be willing to humbly accept that forgiveness as undeserved charity.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Are you giving appropriate weight to what one actually prefers when they are making choices?

Do you mind rephrasing the question. Not quite understanding it.
Thanks.

 

[Clare73]

Our first step is, to just believe it is possible for an all Loving Creator could forgive us unconditionally

Which would be a contradiction of the whole sacrificial system, the gospel of faith and repentance for the forgiveness of sin, and would make Jesus' horrifying atoning work on the cross unnecessary.

and just be willing to humbly accept that forgiveness as undeserved charity.

Nope. . .our first step is to believe the word of God written, and not our own notions which contradict it.

 

[Clare73]

Do you mind rephrasing the question. Not quite understanding it.
Thanks.

Sure. . .you're usually so spot-on in everything.

Was just wondering if you were discounting to some extent the power of the Holy Spirit working in the preferences he gives for the things of God, whereby we have no desire to choose otherwise.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Sure. . .you're usually so spot-on in everything.

Was just wondering if you were discounting to some extent the power of the Holy Spirit working in the preferences he gives for the things of God, whereby we have no desire to choose otherwise.

Lol! I'm so sorry I still dont know what your question is. I guess you'll need to dumb it down further for me on this one.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes I know. Seems strange to me that believing in Jesus Christ of Nazareth comes after He regenerates you with His Holy Spirit. Dosen't make a bit of sense. But I guess this is why the debate continues.
Thanks for sharing!
Blessings

Hahaha! Makes me think of once, when I said to my wife, "Honey, wouldn't it be more acceptable to say, 'It doesn't make sense to me" than to say simply, "It doesn't make sense"?

And she said, "Of course I mean, 'to me'. I'm the one who said it —who else would I be referring to?"

 

[TedT]

No
Freewill does not exist. Man has self will ,but it is bound by sin.
Free will is invented by carnal philosophy of unsaved men

Free will is an absolute necessity for two things; true guilt and true marriage.
1. People are guilty for sin. Without mens rea there is no guilt. No judgement can condemn someone who is not a sinner because they cannot chose to sin. Being created enslaved to sin means no one is guilty for that sin except the creator.

2. The story of GOD's interaction with mankind ends with the marriage of GOD to HIS creation, the heavenly marriage. Since it is the culmination of the story it is very probable that this marriage was the purpose of our creation. It also seems very probable to me that this is the meaning of our being created in HIS image, ie, that we are, by creation, able to be a proper bride for HIM.

No forced marriage is a real marriage and love cannot be forced either. GOD is not a Borg who would be satisfied with a robotic Stepford wife so, for HIS marriage to be real, we had to accept HIS marriage proposal by our free will.

Since as you pointed out all mankind is sinful and our wills are enslaved by the addictive power of sin so we are not in any state to properly accept HIS marriage proposal, it is logical to accept that the hints of our having had an existence previous to the creation of the earth in which we did have a free will uncoerced by sinfulness in which we made our free will decisions to accept HIM, becoming HIS chosen ones, or to deny HIM, becoming eternally unfit to ever be a proper bride.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes I know. Seems strange to me that believing in Jesus Christ of Nazareth comes after He regenerates you with His Holy Spirit. Dosen't make a bit of sense. But I guess this is why the debate continues.
Thanks for sharing!
Blessings

Perhaps it wouldn't seem so strange to you, if you realized that both the regeneration and the belief (faith), are the work of the Spirit of God and cannot be accomplished by man.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Perhaps it wouldn't seem so strange to you, if you realized that both the regeneration and the belief (faith), are the work of the Spirit of God and cannot be accomplished by man.

If two people " hear" the exact same message of the Gospel and one belives and the other does not, are you saying God only allowed His Holy Spirit to work in only one of those two people? Or could it be that one chose God's truth and the other rejected His truth? (All in the power within each person's free will. )

 

[Clare73]

Lol! I'm so sorry I still dont know what your question is. I guess you'll need to dumb it down further for me on this one.

It's really more of a comment in response to your statement that we can reject the Holy Spirit's "calling."

I'm putting forth the nature of the Holy Spirit's power in the change in our disposition to the things of God, which leaves no taste for anything contrary to them that would lead us to reject them.

The rebirth transforms our disposition, just as falling in love "transforms" our heart, extinguishing all desire for anything contrary to that love.