Condemned already: not just Calvinist

[Clare73]

So, no actual verse, eh.

Those verses are links, clink on them for the verse to appear at the top of the pge.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Heaven is only for those who are believing in and trusting on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous.

But can a person believe and trust yet still not obey? That's what I'm asking. Can the disobedient still inherit God's Kingdom?

 

[Clare73]

Death is the wages of every sin, right, but not eternal death in the outer darkness which is reserved for the unforgivable who are condemned already, Jn 3:18.

They "stand condemned already" by the guilt of Adam (Romans 5:18), which only faith in and trust on Jesus Christ removes.

 

[Clare73]

But can a person believe and trust yet still not obey? That's what I'm asking.
Can the disobedient still inherit God's Kingdom?

Those whose lifestyle is disobedience do not have true faith, for true faith obeys, like true love does no harm.

The kingdom is only by genuine faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning work.

 

[martymonster]

The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

Matthew 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.


Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.


Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Revelation 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:

Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Got ?

hope this helps !!!

It is one thing to be able to quote the letter. It is quite another to understand the spirit behind the letters. Can you please show me where you get your interpretation for fire? What about darkness?

Thanks!

 

[TedT]

Correct. . .Adam's guilt is imputed (accounted to, reckoned) to us (Romans 5:12-15, Romans 5:18), just as Christ's righteousness is imputed (accounted to, reckoned) to us (Romans 5:19), and as Abraham's righteousness was imputed (accounted to, reckoned) to him by faith (Genesis 15:6),
apart from faith's obedient works (Romans 4:2-3).

Imputed righteousness due to Christ's sacrifice is not the same as imputed guilt for no reason. GOD cannot abide evil and does not create anyone to be evil by any headship or imputation or any other means

Christ's sacrifice was so that we could be accepted as righteous in HIS sight so the holy Spirit could legally work with us.

Imputed guilt is so bogus; it has no use in HIS system, no connection to HIS righteousness or loving kindness.
IF sin was not imputed to anyone between Adam and the giving of the law to Moses then no one should have died because death proves the imputation of sin...their own sin because, Rom 5:12, all have sinned, not because all have had Adam's sin imputed to them. This is why so many contend that the law spoken of here must refer to a law that was given to every person created HIS image before Moses, perhaps "...but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die."

We are guilty ONLY for our own free will decisions to so eat ...period. Then sinners are put, sown Matt 13:36-39, into Adam to come into the condemnation of death which all sinners receive so that Christ need die only once for all elect sinners.

No matter how you say it, guilt as proven by death and suffering cannot come from another but only from our own free will or it blasphemes GOD's good name.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Predestination is a doctrine of Paul. It's from the 1st century and is part of the gospel.

It is the continued debate between foreordained vs foreknowledge. That's all.
Blessings

 

[martymonster]

It is the continued debate between foreordained vs foreknowledge. That's all.
Blessings

There is also continued debate about the earth being flat.

 

[TedT]

But can a person believe and trust yet still not obey? That's what I'm asking. Can the disobedient still inherit God's Kingdom?

Of course or Hebrews 12:5-11 is hogwash. The Kingdom will only be established upon the full holiness of the last sinul elect holdout.

Being reborn breaks our enslavement to the addictive quality of sin but it doesn't sanctify us, that is, it doesn't free us from our memories of the pleasures and profits of sin....but harsh discipline sure does!!!

 

[TedT]

They "stand condemned already" by the guilt of Adam (Romans 5:18), which only faith in and trust on Jesus Christ removes.

CONDEMNED FOR THEIR OWN FREE WILL CHOICE TO SIN: Jer 31:30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; not for someone else's sin imputed to them!

Eze 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child (mankind) will WILL NOT SHARE THE GUILT of the parent, (ADAM)!!!

IF I have to choose between a theology with a taint or hint of blasphemy and one that has no such aroma but is not generally accepted, then I go for the sanctity of GOD, the perfection of HIS holiness over that theory which is tainted.

Don't start with theology to define HIS goodness; measure all theology by its support for HIS self revealed perfection! The theology that HIS sovereignty causes anything HE does to be righteous is bogus: HIS sovereignty serves and supports HIS goodness, it does not create it!

 

[Clare73]

It is the continued debate between foreordained vs foreknowledge. That's all.
Blessings

Keeping in mind that when the NT refers to God's foreknowledge, it does not mean God knowing in advance what man is going to do, it means knowing in advance what he is going to do because he has decreed from before the foundation of the world that he shall do it. (Romans 8:29)

 

[Clare73]

CONDEMNED FOR THEIR OWN FREE WILL CHOICE TO SIN:

Not according to Romans 5:12-14.

The wages of sin is death.
Where there is no law, there is no sin.
There was no law between Adam and Moses, therefore, no one sinned by disobeying God's explicit commands (as did Adam).
Yet they all died because of sin.

What sin?
The sin of Adam imputed to them (Romans 5:18).

 

[RickReads]

Keeping in mind that when the NT refers to God's foreknowledge, it does not mean God knowing in advance what man is going to do, it means knowing in advance what he is going to do because he has decreed from before the foundation of the world that he shall do it. (Romans 8:29)

Wrong.

Hebrews 4:3
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[Clare73]

Wrong.

Hebrews 4:3
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although
the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Not sure what your point is there, would you please explain.

However, the works there refer to creation and God's full-time sabbath rest from his creation works.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

TedT,

{People only become sinful by choosing by their free will to rebuke YHWH as a liar or by rebelling against HIS commands if they accepted HIM as their GOD.}
No...All sinned and died in Adam
Romans 5:12-21
No one inherits another's sin.
romans3:23

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

We all deserve to be subject to the eternal wrath of God. That is why John meant by those who don't believe in Christ are condemned already. God is totally holy, and cannot abide sin of any form. This means that there will be nothing or no one unholy in heaven. The Scripture says that without holiness no one will see the Lord.

Solid post Oscarr
Many fail to understand the fall into sin and death

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Keeping in mind that when the NT refers to God's foreknowledge, it does not mean God knowing in advance what man is going to do, it means knowing in advance what he is going to do because he has decreed from before the foundation of the world that he shall do it. (Romans 8:29)

Curious....Are you a Calvinist? There is no decreeing with free will otherwise it falls into foreordained. Romans 8:29 still leaves room for free will. The plan for salvation was from the beginning and those who choose Him are the elect therefore chosen.
Thanks for sharing.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Curious....Are you a Calvinist? There is no decreeing with free will otherwise it falls into foreordained. Romans 8:29 still leaves room for free will. The plan for salvation was from the beginning and those who choose Him are the elect therefore chosen.
Thanks for sharing.

No
Freewill does not exist. Man has self will ,but it is bound by sin.
Free will is invented by carnal philosophy of unsaved men

 

[Clare73]

Curious....Are you a Calvinist?

I don't do ism's. I am a Paulist.

There is no decreeing with free will otherwise it falls into foreordained.
Romans 8:29 still leaves room for free will.

The issue is correct Biblical understanding of free will.

"Free will" is actually a notion of man (Pelagius), based on the assumption that responsibility for sin requires that man have free will.
The Bible does not teach the free will of man.
The word is used only once, in relation to one of the sacrifices, where it means voluntary.

However, man's notion of "free will," as it actually operates Biblically, means
"the power to choose voluntarily what one prefers, without external force or constraint."
Likewise, free will does not operate in a vacuum, it is not autonomous, it is governed by the disposition--what one likes or prefers.
Fallen man prefers self and sin, and that is what he chooses. His will is free.

God accomplishes his purposes by working in the dispositions of men, giving them to prefer his will, which they then freely choose without external force or constraint--the definition of free will.

So God's will is accomplished in accordance with the free will of man.

The plan for salvation was from the beginning and
those who choose Him are the elect therefore chosen.

That is circular; i.e., the chosen are chosen because they chose.
The effect becomes the cause of the effect, cutting the Holy Spirit's work completely out of the loop.
They choose him because of God's work in their disposition giving them to prefer him.
"Chosen" means for God's working in their disposition.

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)

It is God who works in you both to will and to do (Philippians 2:13).

 

[Mark Quayle]

Imputed righteousness due to Christ's sacrifice is not the same as imputed guilt for no reason. GOD cannot abide evil and does not create anyone to be evil by any headship or imputation or any other means

Christ's sacrifice was so that we could be accepted as righteous in HIS sight so the holy Spirit could legally work with us.

Imputed guilt is so bogus; it has no use in HIS system, no connection to HIS righteousness or loving kindness.
IF sin was not imputed to anyone between Adam and the giving of the law to Moses then no one should have died because death proves the imputation of sin...their own sin because, Rom 5:12, all have sinned, not because all have had Adam's sin imputed to them. This is why so many contend that the law spoken of here must refer to a law that was given to every person created HIS image before Moses, perhaps "...but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die."

We are guilty ONLY for our own free will decisions to so eat ...period. Then sinners are put, sown Matt 13:36-39, into Adam to come into the condemnation of death which all sinners receive so that Christ need die only once for all elect sinners.

No matter how you say it, guilt as proven by death and suffering cannot come from another but only from our own free will or it blasphemes GOD's good name.

You are conflating guilt, and debt.