Concerns

[MariaJLM]

I know most of my topics on this site as of late are mostly just me ranting, but I've just had many concerns about many different things lately. This time I think I finally got to the root of much of my recent depression.

In short, I honestly wonder why I didn't just go Protestant. I seem to be more in agreement with them regarding social issues and stuff. I am a progressively minded free-thinker and kind of always have been. However, since becoming Orthodox I have had to repress that side of myself because God forbid an Orthodox Christian openly preach against anti-semitism, islamophobia, racism/nationalism, right-wing politics, secular civil unions for same sex couples, creationism, etc. I feel like I'm compromising most of my deeply held values, and all for the sake of disproving I'm some Antifa agent who only joined the church to sabotage it from the inside(yes, that's an actual accusation that has been made about me in the past).

I suppose the real struggle lies in trying to balance my progressive values and my love for liturgical tradition in what is widely considered to be the most conservative Christian church. About the only social issue I fully agree with the church stance on is that women should not be ordained. On others such as same sex marriage I'm fine with it on a secular level. Heck, I even think that if somebody is terminally ill and suffering then they should have euthanasia as an option. I also strongly believe that if we truly want to reduce abortion rates then contraception needs to be widely permitted and that more support programs for expectant parents need to be made available. That is just getting to the tip of the iceberg too. I could go on and on in the countless ways that my social values simply do not match up with those of the church, yet I stick around because I love the rich tradition and I believe we have the Christian faith in its fullest.

Anyway, I'm going to cut this short because I doubt many will read it anyway. I just needed to get it off my chest since it's seriously affecting the quality of my faith.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I know plenty of Orthodox in good standing who would agree with everything you said. plenty of Orthodox have spoken for progressive causes, when those causes are in line with Orthodoxy.

 

[MariaJLM]

I know plenty of Orthodox in good standing who would agree with everything you said. plenty of Orthodox have spoken for progressive causes, when those causes are in line with Orthodoxy.

but that's exactly the issue. Many could argue that some of my views are not in line with Orthodoxy, such as supporting contraception.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Have you ever considered the possibility that your progressive attitude is the issue or your imperfection (don't worry we all have our own imperfections and this might just be yours...) ?

I mean we're called to have our heart transformed by the church not the other way around.

(Please let me know if I should delete my post as I'm catholic and not orthodox)

 

[ArmyMatt]

but that's exactly the issue. Many could argue that some of my views are not in line with Orthodoxy, such as supporting contraception.

well, you have read what I have said concerning contraception. however, we Orthodox also should not hold the non-Orthodox to Orthodox standards. so I am fine with contraception being affordable, available, and effective seeing as how we live in a secular culture.

 

[MariaJLM]

well, you have read what I have said concerning contraception. however, we Orthodox also should not hold the non-Orthodox to Orthodox standards. so I am fine with contraception being affordable, available, and effective seeing as how we live in a secular culture.

Well, Orthodox have sexual urges too so if they're married they should be able to have sex occasionally without the risk of pregnancy, otherwise it's suffer from insatiable lust or be stuck with children one cannot really afford to look after.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well, Orthodox have sexual urges too so if they're married they should be able to have sex occasionally without the risk of pregnancy, otherwise it's suffer from insatiable lust or be stuck with children one cannot really afford to look after.

and whether or not that happens, is up to the bishop and priest. even Fr Josiah Trenham, who is as anti-contraception as they come (and he has 10 kids), has blessed its use.

 

[dzheremi]

I would assume that you have joined Eastern Orthodoxy because you believe it to be the true faith of Christ and His apostles. What social issue could rise above this?

One of the things that was a large relief to me upon finding the Coptic Orthodox Church was the absence of "Coptic Voter's Guide" type literature, unlike in my former faith (the Roman Catholic Church). Of course, I didn't understand at the time that we don't have such things because Egypt has had only one election in most people's lives, and Christians paid dearly for it (and are still paying for it) in the country. So it's not such a good thing, but in an American context, it feels like a huge weight removed.

Have you ever considered that maybe you are in an analogous situation? After all, you are in your Church in whatever parish you are in, in your country where I am assuming that Orthodox are on the whole more conservative on social issues than the general population, so you angst at being the 'liberal' one is relative to that, and probably not therefore a reflection on Eastern Orthodoxy as a whole.

Like in my old parish, there was an Ethiopian woman -- socially liberal, Americanized, in her 20s or thereabouts -- who voted for Obama in one of the recent US elections, and was teased pretty mercilessly for it by the Egyptians after liturgy, when we gathered to bond over the Agape meal (the only time when this kind of discussion could occur). They said things like "It's okay, (Name), it is because you are young and don't know any better." She took that as a personal offense, obviously, as she was born in this country and knew it better than some Egyptian dope who came here 8 years ago and still behaves with one foot in Egypt, if you know what I mean. But not every parish is like that (and it never got beyond teasing, anyway, as serious disagreements within the flock are mediated by the clergy and other community elders), and the parish that I was actually baptized in was much less insulated (larger, more different kinds of people from different places, etc.), and hence there was none of that kind of teasing. Every place may be different like that, right? So maybe you could benefit from looking for another parish to visit, not necessarily so that it might be more 'socially liberal' (I would imagine that the EO don't really do that kind of dichotomy when it comes to church worship, as liturgy is liturgy regardless of who believes in what concerning social issues), but maybe so that you could meet different people whose personalities are not so given to that sort of behavior towards 'social outsiders'.

The same parish in which the people made fun of the Ethiopian girl (who I tried to defend initially, because when I was in college during Obama's first run for the presidency, I voted for him too; that got me labeled appropriately: "Ahh, you are just like (Ethiopian girl), then! You both don't know anything!", and that's when I realized that it wasn't about substantial discussion -- these guys were just being jerks because they thought it was funny to pick on young, 'liberal' idealists) also had some people who were the exact opposite: quiet, contemplative, and only raising their voice to speak when they really had something to say. These people were the ones I admired the most and most wanted to take after. I remember after one liturgy I was putting my shoes back on and I guess I was taking too long for some of the others (I have medical issues with my leg muscles that make them very inflexible, so simple things like putting shoes on can be a challenge sometimes), and one of them came in from the common eating room and yelled "Come on! We are all waiting for you so that abouna can pray over the food and we can eat! Hurry up!", so I said I was and would only be a minute more. Then he left and another one of the men, a very quiet man who had maybe only said three sentences to me in the year I had been there so far came in, sat down next to me and said "When someone yells at you like that, you just ignore them, okay? This is your church, too, and so you do things your own way. It is okay." I thanked him and said it was okay, but I think internally I was relieved to know that if I was to join this Church, I would not have to conform to the way that the more strident, frankly kind of obnoxious men could be. That's a cultural thing, and I have the right to remain as I am and not have to pretend that Egyptian cultural norms are what is best for me when they aren't (at least not in every case; I don't know...I like their food, mostly...does that count?), so long as we all share the same faith and profess it in the liturgy. All the rest is just what some guy or gal has brought with them from Egypt, Sudan, Libya, or wherever. I don't disrespect it, but it is not Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is the faith, and around it we all gather, sharing the same cup. Everything else is secondary at best.

Surely there must be some people in your congregation whose way of being can help you 'tune out' or otherwise make peace with the others who might be causing you to stumble? I don't know. I hope that is the case, anyway, because these kinds of disagreements are really not a reason to leave your Church. And I'm not even a member of it to begin with, so I don't have any ulterior motives here. I just know that Christ tells us through His speech to the Samaritan woman that the time is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers of God will gather to worship God in spirit and truth, and so when you have found the place where you have been called to do that, what else is there but these secondary issues which can be dealt with without touching the primary reason why you gather in community in the first place, with the Lord Jesus Christ among you. Lord have mercy.

 

[MariaJLM]

I would assume that you have joined Eastern Orthodoxy because you believe it to be the true faith of Christ and His apostles. What social issue could rise above this?

One of the things that was a large relief to me upon finding the Coptic Orthodox Church was the absence of "Coptic Voter's Guide" type literature, unlike in my former faith (the Roman Catholic Church). Of course, I didn't understand at the time that we don't have such things because Egypt has had only one election in most people's lives, and Christians paid dearly for it (and are still paying for it) in the country. So it's not such a good thing, but in an American context, it feels like a huge weight removed.

Have you ever considered that maybe you are in an analogous situation? After all, you are in your Church in whatever parish you are in, in your country where I am assuming that Orthodox are on the whole more conservative on social issues than the general population, so you angst at being the 'liberal' one is relative to that, and probably not therefore a reflection on Eastern Orthodoxy as a whole.

Like in my old parish, there was an Ethiopian woman -- socially liberal, Americanized, in her 20s or thereabouts -- who voted for Obama in one of the recent US elections, and was teased pretty mercilessly for it by the Egyptians after liturgy, when we gathered to bond over the Agape meal (the only time when this kind of discussion could occur). They said things like "It's okay, (Name), it is because you are young and don't know any better." She took that as a personal offense, obviously, as she was born in this country and knew it better than some Egyptian dope who came here 8 years ago and still behaves with one foot in Egypt, if you know what I mean. But not every parish is like that (and it never got beyond teasing, anyway, as serious disagreements within the flock are mediated by the clergy and other community elders), and the parish that I was actually baptized in was much less insulated (larger, more different kinds of people from different places, etc.), and hence there was none of that kind of teasing. Every place may be different like that, right? So maybe you could benefit from looking for another parish to visit, not necessarily so that it might be more 'socially liberal' (I would imagine that the EO don't really do that kind of dichotomy when it comes to church worship, as liturgy is liturgy regardless of who believes in what concerning social issues), but maybe so that you could meet different people whose personalities are not so given to that sort of behavior towards 'social outsiders'.

The same parish in which the people made fun of the Ethiopian girl (who I tried to defend initially, because when I was in college during Obama's first run for the presidency, I voted for him too; that got me labeled appropriately: "Ahh, you are just like (Ethiopian girl), then! You both don't know anything!", and that's when I realized that it wasn't about substantial discussion -- these guys were just being jerks because they thought it was funny to pick on young, 'liberal' idealists) also had some people who were the exact opposite: quiet, contemplative, and only raising their voice to speak when they really had something to say. These people were the ones I admired the most and most wanted to take after. I remember after one liturgy I was putting my shoes back on and I guess I was taking too long for some of the others (I have medical issues with my leg muscles that make them very inflexible, so simple things like putting shoes on can be a challenge sometimes), and one of them came in from the common eating room and yelled "Come on! We are all waiting for you so that abouna can pray over the food and we can eat! Hurry up!", so I said I was and would only be a minute more. Then he left and another one of the men, a very quiet man who had maybe only said three sentences to me in the year I had been there so far came in, sat down next to me and said "When someone yells at you like that, you just ignore them, okay? This is your church, too, and so you do things your own way. It is okay." I thanked him and said it was okay, but I think internally I was relieved to know that if I was to join this Church, I would not have to conform to the way that the more strident, frankly kind of obnoxious men could be. That's a cultural thing, and I have the right to remain as I am and not have to pretend that Egyptian cultural norms are what is best for me when they aren't (at least not in every case; I don't know...I like their food, mostly...does that count?), so long as we all share the same faith and profess it in the liturgy. All the rest is just what some guy or gal has brought with them from Egypt, Sudan, Libya, or wherever. I don't disrespect it, but it is not Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is the faith, and around it we all gather, sharing the same cup. Everything else is secondary at best.

Surely there must be some people in your congregation whose way of being can help you 'tune out' or otherwise make peace with the others who might be causing you to stumble? I don't know. I hope that is the case, anyway, because these kinds of disagreements are really not a reason to leave your Church. And I'm not even a member of it to begin with, so I don't have any ulterior motives here. I just know that Christ tells us through His speech to the Samaritan woman that the time is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers of God will gather to worship God in spirit and truth, and so when you have found the place where you have been called to do that, what else is there but these secondary issues which can be dealt with without touching the primary reason why you gather in community in the first place, with the Lord Jesus Christ among you. Lord have mercy.

I suppose it's kind of silly because even when I first decided to join the church I knew exactly what I was getting into and that it would definitely contradict with my personal values. Sure enough, I found that out the hard way. I got attacked as being a modernist heretic and all manner of other insults. In reality I'm simply an ordinary person navigating the world as I see it. I am a product of a liberal society because, as most know, Canada is an extremely liberal society. I was born and raised in that society and people usually adopt the values they are raised around.

That being said, yes the Orthodox(and really Christians in general) are more conservative than the general population. I've even seen people in my parish praise Trump during Coffee Hour and that's a rarity in Canada. Here it's seen as something only right-wing extremist nutters and white supremacists do. Of course I don't fit any of that at all since I despise Trump.

Lastly, the majority of Orthodox in my city are cradle Orthodox. The values they were raised with are clearly drastically different from the ones I was raised with in my secular/non-religious family. Naturally, that puts me at odds with a lot of people. There's not too many other fellow converts I can confide in either since frankly there's so few of them in the local community. It's also hard for me to even get close to people do to my own issues like mental illness and stuff.

 

[ttcmacro]

I'm not sure that many of your views are necessarily in conflict with Orthodox teaching. Hopefully we are not teaching antisemitism and racism, for example. While we may think of Orthodoxy as "conservative," it doesn't quite fit the neat little boxes of the modern American political scene (thank God!).

When I became Orthodox, I was a right winger/libertarian. Guess what? Over time, my views have changed somewhat, as a I result of being Orthodox. I remember hearing Abbot Tryphon mentioning in one of his podcasts that this is not unusual- it takes time to acquire the "mind of the Church." Also, I have noticed that my concern for politics has declined substantially, as my identity is no longer tied to a political party and I'm able to focus on what I believe is truly important.

 

[MariaJLM]

I'm not sure that many of your views are necessarily in conflict with Orthodox teaching. Hopefully we are not teaching antisemitism and racism, for example. While we may think of Orthodoxy as "conservative," it doesn't quite fit the neat little boxes of the modern American political scene (thank God!).

When I became Orthodox, I was a right winger/libertarian. Guess what? Over time, my views have changed somewhat, as a I result of being Orthodox. I remember hearing Abbot Tryphon mentioning in one of his podcasts that this is not unusual- it takes time to acquire the "mind of the Church." Also, I have noticed that my concern for politics has declined substantially, as my identity is no longer tied to a political party and I'm able to focus on what I believe is truly important.

My concerns mainly lie in the fact that I have been condemned as a modernist heretic and other things simply for holding the views I do.

 

[truefiction1]

I suppose it's kind of silly because even when I first decided to join the church I knew exactly what I was getting into and that it would definitely contradict with my personal values. Sure enough, I found that out the hard way. I got attacked as being a modernist heretic and all manner of other insults. In reality I'm simply an ordinary person navigating the world as I see it. I am a product of a liberal society because, as most know, Canada is an extremely liberal society. I was born and raised in that society and people usually adopt the values they are raised around.

That being said, yes the Orthodox(and really Christians in general) are more conservative than the general population. I've even seen people in my parish praise Trump during Coffee Hour and that's a rarity in Canada. Here it's seen as something only right-wing extremist nutters and white supremacists do. Of course I don't fit any of that at all since I despise Trump.

Lastly, the majority of Orthodox in my city are cradle Orthodox. The values they were raised with are clearly drastically different from the ones I was raised with in my secular/non-religious family. Naturally, that puts me at odds with a lot of people. There's not too many other fellow converts I can confide in either since frankly there's so few of them in the local community. It's also hard for me to even get close to people do to my own issues like mental illness and stuff.

Maria, have you ever thought that if we spend as much time washing the feet of others as our Lord wills us to, concerns such as these would seldom if ever cross our minds, because our minds would of necessity be centered on our unceasing prayer, and our hearts filled with the joy of the Holy Spirit rather than useless doubts. This world is passing away, and everything in it, But Christ has overcome the world.

 

[MariaJLM]

Maria, have you ever thought that if we spend as much time washing the feet of others as our Lord wills us to, concerns such as these would seldom if ever cross our minds, because our minds would of necessity be centered on our unceasing prayer, and our hearts filled with the joy of the Holy Spirit rather than useless doubts. This world is passing away, and everything in it, But Christ has overcome the world.

Well, it's not like I pray much either. I rarely get to attend church and then personal prayer at home has become a struggle because I consistently have doubts about whether God even listens or cares at all.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I know most of my topics on this site as of late are mostly just me ranting, but I've just had many concerns about many different things lately. This time I think I finally got to the root of much of my recent depression.

In short, I honestly wonder why I didn't just go Protestant. I seem to be more in agreement with them regarding social issues and stuff. I am a progressively minded free-thinker and kind of always have been. However, since becoming Orthodox I have had to repress that side of myself because God forbid an Orthodox Christian openly preach against anti-semitism, islamophobia, racism/nationalism, right-wing politics, secular civil unions for same sex couples, creationism, etc. I feel like I'm compromising most of my deeply held values, and all for the sake of disproving I'm some Antifa agent who only joined the church to sabotage it from the inside(yes, that's an actual accusation that has been made about me in the past).

I suppose the real struggle lies in trying to balance my progressive values and my love for liturgical tradition in what is widely considered to be the most conservative Christian church. About the only social issue I fully agree with the church stance on is that women should not be ordained. On others such as same sex marriage I'm fine with it on a secular level. Heck, I even think that if somebody is terminally ill and suffering then they should have euthanasia as an option. I also strongly believe that if we truly want to reduce abortion rates then contraception needs to be widely permitted and that more support programs for expectant parents need to be made available. That is just getting to the tip of the iceberg too. I could go on and on in the countless ways that my social values simply do not match up with those of the church, yet I stick around because I love the rich tradition and I believe we have the Christian faith in its fullest.

Anyway, I'm going to cut this short because I doubt many will read it anyway. I just needed to get it off my chest since it's seriously affecting the quality of my faith.

I read your post (obviously), and I have absolutely no issue with what you have expressed. The central issue, whether Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, or Pentecostal, have we received Christ into our hearts along with joining the church of our choice. I spent a couple of years in an Anglican church and enjoyed the liturgy. I was able to enter into it with my heart as well as my mouth. It was quite a change from the Charismatic church I came from. The ministry in the Anglican church was not based on personalities and there was no controlling spirit there. Anglicans believed in accepting anyone without judgmentalism, but also believed that one needed to receive Christ in their heart.

As far as your personal views and opinions are concerned, these are in the area of sanctification which is developing. Paul said that he was not going to allow any person to judge him; in fact, he was not even going to judge himself, and would leave any judgment to his Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. If people judged us by their measure, then by their measure they will be themselves judged. We are not the Holy Spirit, and so we cannot do His work in the lives of people. We give everyone the benefit of the doubt and let the Holy Spirit do his work to sort out the issues as He wills.

I remember asking God once how to be a real Christian. He said just to be myself. I said that I can't do that because everyone will see all my sins and shortcomings. He said, "If I don't like you, I will change you." That was in 1969, 50 years ago, and there were significant changes happened for good in me that I didn't accomplish myself. It was just that some things just happened to fall away from me, and other things seemed to be added. So, resting in Jesus and His grace and love is the best thing we can do.

 

[ArmyMatt]

My concerns mainly lie in the fact that I have been condemned as a modernist heretic and other things simply for holding the views I do.

the rector of my seminary, who was also my Scripture professor, once pointed out that bishops determine heretics. not priests, not deacons, not laity.

and people have called me a raging fundamentalist. it's all good.

 

[truefiction1]

Well, it's not like I pray much either. I rarely get to attend church and then personal prayer at home has become a struggle because I consistently have doubts about whether God even listens or cares at all.

Oh, that would likely be a problem then. Perhaps if you could at least try to be present with Christ - and let Him be present with you - for just a little while each day, through use of the Jesus prayer, or just some simple, needful sighs for help directed at Him on occasion. I know that our lives are often a struggle of themselves and that our worldly responsibilities are important, but everyone needs to be alone with God sometimes. Even Jesus, in His human nature, needed this. God does care, with a level of care that is unimaginable to us.

Prayers.

 

[ttcmacro]

My concerns mainly lie in the fact that I have been condemned as a modernist heretic and other things simply for holding the views I do.

Isn't there an Orthodox saying that even Saints are allowed to hold one heretical view?

Just kidding. I can see how the situation you described in your Parish would be problematic. I'm fortunate that my Parish is relativity free of political discussions. I was raised evangelical, and in the U.S., many evangelical churches get very political. It made me uncomfortable, even though I was on the political right.

Perhaps it is best to focus on those areas where you are in agreement with the church (racism, concern for the poor, etc.) The Church needs people like you that have concern for and are passionate about these issues.

 

[MariaJLM]

Oh, that would likely be a problem then. Perhaps if you could at least try to be present with Christ - and let Him be present with you - for just a little while each day, through use of the Jesus prayer, or just some simple, needful sighs for help directed at Him on occasion. I know that our lives are often a struggle of themselves and that our worldly responsibilities are important, but everyone needs to be alone with God sometimes. Even Jesus, in His human nature, needed this. God does care, with a level of care that is unimaginable to us.

Prayers.

I guess I just really struggle since I have a logical mind and God is not at all logical. It takes quite a lot of suspension of disbelief to believe in God.

 

[MariaJLM]

Isn't there an Orthodox saying that even Saints are allowed to hold one heretical view?

Just kidding. I can see how the situation you described in your Parish would be problematic. I'm fortunate that my Parish is relativity free of political discussions. I was raised evangelical, and in the U.S., many evangelical churches get very political. It made me uncomfortable, even though I was on the political right.

Perhaps it is best to focus on those areas where you are in agreement with the church (racism, concern for the poor, etc.) The Church needs people like you that have concern for and are passionate about these issues.

My parish is normally not super political. It has really only gotten that way since the mess in Ukraine. Being a Ukrainian parish in Canada we obviously side with the EP and the now autocephalous church in Ukraine. However, that alone makes one targeted for attack in the Orthodox world.

 

[John0987]

Perhaps your problem is using anachronisms and identifying with them, such as "progressive" and "conservative".
If Orthodoxy agrees with "american conservatism" it's by sheer chance only. I think we should take the teachings with good heart, regardless of what political minions who do not care or know about Orthodoxy think about them.