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Concerning Hell

podriscoll

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I have had that thought before when I am depressed: Why did God call me out of oblivion, put me in a flawed world with a flawed and lust racked body only to condemn me to hell when I fail to live up to his standards? I face an Eternity of torment, why didn’t he just leave me in oblivion?



Then I realize that he is still there, and will always forgive me and anyone else who realizes their sin and looks to him.



I will fall, I will sin, but no matter how many times I do fail, God is there to pick me up and help me on.



The real question is what did I do to deserve such unconditional love, especially when I keep messing things up by sinning?
 
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ImmortalTechnique

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the fact is that an omniscient creator DOES preclude free will... there is simply no way around it... it is not just that he knows what we will choose... he created us in whatever manner he created us knowing what we would choose, and knowing all the different ways he could have created us that we would have chosen differently, and having the power to do so.

god, knowing that by creating us he would bring sin into the world, sinned... we had no choice, since he knew from the beginning what our choices would be and created us in that manner anyways. god knew from day one of creation that i would post this. god knew from day one of creation that hitler would do what he did. yet god created his creation in a way that would allow all those things to happen, and he had the knowledge AND power to create it differently.

an omniscient creator god is responsible for hitler, stalin, murder, lying, immorality... he created the world in a way that all these things would come about, and had the knowledge and power to create it otherwise...
 
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Catholicism

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If God is responsible for the evil we choose to do, then we in turn are responsible for the evil our children choose to do. We know in advance that everyone does some amount of evil at the least they lie, insult people or hurting their feelings, et cetera, and that includes our children.

We could choose to not bring this additional evil into the world by, say, getting ourselves sterilized. So in a sense we could prevent it. Thus we're in the same boat as God. We know that evil will occur in the world by bringing children into the world, and we are able to prevent this, but we don't. Yet we don't hold the parents of adults responsible for what their children choose to do.

God did not make you post on any forum, you still had the power of free will to choose whether or not you were and are going to post, regardless if God already knows if you will post or not. You are not forced to do anything.

The fact that a world without evil would be a world without good is one reason that God might allow evil.

Another reason is that it is possible that God can have reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand.

A third and yet another reason is that God may be letting evil run its course. In order to prove to us that evil is evil and that suffering, which is the product of evil, is proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death.

A fourth possible reason that God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust. God is not stopping people from exercising their free will. Think about this for a moment: If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering? If God only stopped some of it, then we would still be asking the same question of why it exists. So, if we want God to stop evil and suffering He must stop all of it. We have no problem with this when it means stopping a natural disaster, or a murder, or a war or two. But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is evil whether it is acted out or not. Hatred and anger in someone’s heart is evil. Since it is evil, and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove our freedom of thought. Then you must ask yourself, which person on the earth has not thought of something evil? God would be required to stop all people from exercising their free will. This is something God has chosen not to do. Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is because of man’s free will.

Fifth, it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. A good example of this is Joseph of many colors.

God gave Adam dominion over the world. When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise, but bore suffering upon us. And men still rebelling against God cause wars. So in a sense we cause suffering ourselves.

I’m not sure if this answers any of your questions, and I’m not even sure if this makes any sense. I’m sorry if it doesn’t!!!



 
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Carri20

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1.) How can an All-Loving God cast His creations into fire?

2.) Why eternal torture? Death is vicious, but torture is cruel. Murder is criminal, but torture is disgusting. There are many choices to be had other than eternal torture, and yet God settled on this. In the words of a dear friend of mine, "They have a word for anyone who would torture a human being for long periods of time: evil."

3.) If God knows ahead of time how we shall behave, and that our destiny is eternal torture in Hell, why does he create those destined for such? Is this not akin to giving birth simply so that you may slowly and painfully kill your baby, or to planting a garden simply so that you may burn the field when harvest comes?

1. How can a God who suffered and died without an utterance of complaint for your sake not be all-loving?

2. Why eternal life? We humans have committed all manners of filthy sin imaginable and deserve eternal punishment. We are not worthy, so why should we be allowed a chance at eternal life with God, who is holy?

3. Since God knew how horribly we would ALL behave ahead of time, what made him care enough to take our punishment?

Conclusion: God IS all-loving. =)
 
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Carri20

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I forgot to add something. God gave us free will to choose whether we go to heaven or hell because he wants us to serve him by choice, not because we're forced to. Would you rather be a mindless robot that does only what it's told? I sure wouldn't.

Also don't forget the existance of Satan. If it weren't for Satan there wouldn't even be a hell. Hell was created for Satan and his demons alone. It was not made for man. But if a man chooses to follow Satan instead of God--and those are the only two options there are--where do you think he's going to go? He can't go to heaven because no sin can enter there, and he has not accepted Jesus' payment for his sins, so he must pay for them himself, in hell, where sin belongs. He has thrown himself into hell, not God.
 
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MuAndNu

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Carri20 said:
I forgot to add something. God gave us free will to choose whether we go to heaven or hell because he wants us to serve him by choice, not because we're forced to. Would you rather be a mindless robot that does only what it's told? I sure wouldn't.

On the other hand, what if God had made us so overwhelmingly brilliant and perceptive that we'd always be able to anticipate every eventuality and see immediately the right choice and how it would benefit us and others? (Isn't that what we're supposed to be like in Heaven?) We wouldn't have to be robots. We'd have free will and a disinclination to sin. Thus, Hell wouldn't be necessary. Not for us, anyway.
 
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Carri20

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On the other hand, what if God had made us so overwhelmingly brilliant and perceptive that we'd always be able to anticipate every eventuality and see immediately the right choice and how it would benefit us and others? (Isn't that what we're supposed to be like in Heaven?) We wouldn't have to be robots. We'd have free will and a disinclination to sin. Thus, Hell wouldn't be necessary. Not for us, anyway.

Will wise do? God promises to give wisdom to anyone who asks for it. He also promises that if you seek the truth you'll find it.
 
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ImmortalTechnique

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none of these points take into account that god created everything. god created me knowing EXACTLY what i would do, and had the knowledge and power to create me otherwise. he essentially programmed me, if he is indeed all knowing and all powerful... this is different from us having children because we do not have all knowledge of what they would do OR the power to change what they will eventually do (not all power anyways)

hitler's mother is not responsible for hitler. if, however, she knew before he was conceived everything he would do, she is somewhat responsible. if she knew everything he would do, but also had the power to change that and make a much less evil child, and she chose to have hitler anyways, she would be fully responsible
 
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Carri20

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I don't have all the answers, but consider this. If you keep holding God at arm's length until he reveals to you all the secrets of the universe, you'll end up sad and alone in a place you definitely don't want to be. All he asks for is a mustard seed of faith to work with. If you won't give him that much, then he won't give you anything.
 
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MuAndNu

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Carri20 said:
I don't have all the answers, but consider this. If you keep holding God at arm's length until he reveals to you all the secrets of the universe, you'll end up sad and alone in a place you definitely don't want to be. All he asks for is a mustard seed of faith to work with. If you won't give him that much, then he won't give you anything.

I don't need all the answers. I don't need all the points around the perimeter of a circle to recognize it's a circle, either. However, if somebody throws out a buch of points in space and tells me they describe as circle, I'm perfectly within my rights to see if that's really so. If some of them clearly lie outside the circle, then I'm more than justfied in assuming they do not, in fact, describe a circle, no matter how much the "circle believer" insists they do.

The issue under consideration here is one of those points that are inconsistent with the kind of God Christians describe. As per my suggestion, it would have been easy enough for God to create men such that we were neither robots nor had any inclination to sin. I think we're entitled to a believable explanation why he didn't rather than just being fed an unsupported, "Believe or else."
 
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Sosorius

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I don't have all the answers, but consider this. If you keep holding God at arm's length until he reveals to you all the secrets of the universe, you'll end up sad and alone in a place you definitely don't want to be. All he asks for is a mustard seed of faith to work with. If you won't give him that much, then he won't give you anything.

It is unfortunate, then, that believing in an invisible being that can not be comprehended by His own greatness, that created everything and is the supreme infallible Architect, is far from being a "small" leap of faith. Then again, the one who spoke that particular instruction was Jesus, who spoke to a culture that automatically accepted the existence of said Being.
 
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