Concerning Hell

[grateful heart]

Well I'm just glad you don't decide who are "real Christians."

And you should have rephrased that last bit. The truth is, "Only Christians who take the bible out of the context which you understand would say this."

which is true , not just my understanding, anyone can misquote the scriptures, not everyone can quote in context

I've addressed this argument a thousand times and it never seems to do any good, so I won't go into it in depth. I'd just like to log my EXTREMELY HUGE objection to the above:

If I don't know that God exists to begin with -- which I don't -- then I can't accept the grace of God. That should be ridiculously obvious but for some reason it seems that it's my responsibility to guess right, as if I have any control over whether a random guess is correct.

The problem with this is you are only looking one dimensional, your only using logic and if you cant work it out in your head you dont believe, this who ever is your choice. if i dont believe in inertia it doesnt mean i wont fall if i jump off a cliff, is it still my choice? too right it is

 

[grateful heart]

by the way how do you quote with the persons name in it as well?

 

[WittyBanter]

This is the hardest topic for many people - including myself. The "Unfairness" of the eternal Hell. I am willing to bet a good portion of Christians are folks born to Christian families, giving them a much larger chance of making the 'right' choice. Really, i'll bet many of you if born in a Tibetan mountain town would be Buddhists. Therefore, God picks his favorites based on accidents of birth. The child born to an upper middle class God-loving western-democratic family is way more likely to go to Heaven, whereas the child in the aforementioned mountain town is more likely to go to Hell. This ultimately was the topic that made me start exploring other religions and leave Christianity.

WB

 

[grateful heart]

This is the hardest topic for many people - including myself. The "Unfairness" of the eternal Hell. I am willing to bet a good portion of Christians are folks born to Christian families, giving them a much larger chance of making the 'right' choice. Really, i'll bet many of you if born in a Tibetan mountain town would be Buddhists. Therefore, God picks his favorites based on accidents of birth. The child born to an upper middle class God-loving western-democratic family is way more likely to go to Heaven, whereas the child in the aforementioned mountain town is more likely to go to Hell. This ultimately was the topic that made me start exploring other religions and leave Christianity.

And I bet you have not travelled much in the World to see that the majority of Christians are not in the Western World and have not grown up in so called Christian homes.Also you are judged on what you know , not what you dont know. There has been many testimonies of People seeing Visions of Jesus in the Middle east and asia who would not normally get the chance to hear the message and have come to Christ through that way

 

[joemaloy]

Read Genesis 6,6-7

God did make a mistake.
which leads to the next questions.

Is God perfect, maybe not.

Which leads on to the others

Is he all knowing
Is he all powerful

 

[Sosorius]

I am glad to see that the argument has become aptly heated; discussion is an good thing, and debating is better. Now, for a hypothetical situation:

The time is 800 A.D., before the incredibly large spread of Christianity. You are a villager on a small specific island, which of itself has been isolated from everything but adjacent cultures, each having a similar template to your own. You worship multiple gods zealously, perform animal sacrifices, and when you age you will take on no less than three or four wives depending on your personal fortune and status. Ultimately, you are a very generous and giving person, as are all your people. Why are you polytheistic? The same reason that the Italians so many miles away are monotheistic: it is what you were born into. However, unlike the Italians and other Catholic regions, you are isolated on your island with your people, and there is little outer influence in your society. None the less you are not Christian, so shall you burn in Hell?

Points to ponder:
-It is God's fault, if you will, that you were born where you were when you were.
-You can not possibly know any other religion that that which is present on the island.
-God put you there outside the scope of Christian influence, and you will grow up in a society where you worship the only gods you know.
-Will you, then, be forced to burn in Hell simply because God put you somewhere where His religion was unaccessible?
-If the above is true, then did God not essentially create you simply so that you may spend an eternity in Hell?

 

[Ganymede]

I am glad to see that the argument has become aptly heated; discussion is an good thing, and debating is better. Now, for a hypothetical situation:

The time is 800 A.D., before the incredibly large spread of Christianity. You are a villager on a small specific island, which of itself has been isolated from everything but adjacent cultures, each having a similar template to your own. You worship multiple gods zealously, perform animal sacrifices, and when you age you will take on no less than three or four wives depending on your personal fortune and status. Ultimately, you are a very generous and giving person, as are all your people. Why are you polytheistic? The same reason that the Italians so many miles away are monotheistic: it is what you were born into. However, unlike the Italians and other Catholic regions, you are isolated on your island with your people, and there is little outer influence in your society. None the less you are not Christian, so shall you burn in Hell?

Points to ponder:
-It is God's fault, if you will, that you were born where you were when you were.
-You can not possibly know any other religion that that which is present on the island.
-God put you there outside the scope of Christian influence, and you will grow up in a society where you worship the only gods you know.
-Will you, then, be forced to burn in Hell simply because God put you somewhere where His religion was unaccessible?
-If the above is true, then did God not essentially create you simply so that you may spend an eternity in Hell?

Most Christians will respond that God would take your isolation from Christianity into account on judgement day and judge you accordingly. What's intersting about this is that the first missionary to arrive on your island does you a grave dis-service as after he tells you about the one true God your chances of burning in hell must be increased.

 

[grateful heart]

I am glad to see that the argument has become aptly heated; discussion is an good thing, and debating is better. Now, for a hypothetical situation:

The time is 800 A.D., before the incredibly large spread of Christianity. You are a villager on a small specific island, which of itself has been isolated from everything but adjacent cultures, each having a similar template to your own. You worship multiple gods zealously, perform animal sacrifices, and when you age you will take on no less than three or four wives depending on your personal fortune and status. Ultimately, you are a very generous and giving person, as are all your people. Why are you polytheistic? The same reason that the Italians so many miles away are monotheistic: it is what you were born into. However, unlike the Italians and other Catholic regions, you are isolated on your island with your people, and there is little outer influence in your society. None the less you are not Christian, so shall you burn in Hell?

Points to ponder:
-It is God's fault, if you will, that you were born where you were when you were.
-You can not possibly know any other religion that that which is present on the island.
-God put you there outside the scope of Christian influence, and you will grow up in a society where you worship the only gods you know.
-Will you, then, be forced to burn in Hell simply because God put you somewhere where His religion was unaccessible?
-If the above is true, then did God not essentially create you simply so that you may spend an eternity in Hell?

Im sorry i dont do Hyptheticals.

Read Genesis 6,6-7

God did make a mistake.
which leads to the next questions.

Is God perfect, maybe not.

Which leads on to the others

Is he all knowing
Is he all powerful

you should study this in more detail

 

[Sosorius]

Im sorry i dont do Hyptheticals.

Then you really shouldn't have bothered with the response. None the less, it is only a hypothetical situation in so far as I am asking you to put YOURSELF in such shoes. Factually the "hypothetical situation" was real for millions upon millions of people for over one thousand years after the establishment of the Christian religion.

 

[Jeremiah31_3]

Sorry - won't wash. God created hell and as an all knowing, all powerful God, he knew from the start that billions of human souls would end up there - suffering eternal torment for all time. Saying God didn't mean for us to end up there is like saying God made a mistake and I don't think that is something you would except. So my question remains....

Is the everlasting torture of sinners the best solution God could come up with? If it is, God is mind-bogglingly cruel. If not, the bible is wrong about hell, or God is a long way short of perfect.

What do you expect me to say? That is an impossible question to answer, if i say that he did create hell, then you'll go on about him being cruel, if i say he didn't, you'll blast me for going against my beliefs, the fact is that i believe the bible is gods word. Period. it says in there that those who don't believe go to hell. I agree that is incredibly harsh. But god would have had a reason for it, and i'm not going to go into all the possible reasons he may have. It's like being stuck on the titanic when it's sinking and standing in the middle going.... Why is it sinking? Do ya think if we had of been going slightly more to the left? Do ya??? what about??? That's pointless. the point is to get to a life boat and get out of there. once that's done. then ya can go and ask ya questions. I'm not gonna post here again, this thread has reached an official circle and no more i say will make any difference. God bless all. I will be praying for yas.

 

[grateful heart]

Then you really shouldn't have bothered with the response. None the less, it is only a hypothetical situation in so far as I am asking you to put YOURSELF in such shoes. Factually the "hypothetical situation" was real for millions upon millions of people for over one thousand years after the establishment of the Christian religion.

Wow i didnt realise you had such greta insight of millions of peoples lives that they had no revelation of God just Like The apostle Paul did

 

[joemaloy]

Im sorry i dont do Hyptheticals.


you should study this in more detail

I have. He said he made a mistake.

6:6 And it REPENTED the lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

6:7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man who I have created from the face of the earth; both man and beast,and the creeping thing,nd the fowls of the air; for it REPENTETH ME that I have made them.

Repent = regret=mistake

 

[Sosorius]

Wow i didnt realise you had such greta insight of millions of peoples lives that they had no revelation of God just Like The apostle Paul did

Another uselss assertion. Insight? No. Care? Yes. There is a nagging in the back of my mind that makes me wonder about the billions of lives that have passed in places where Christianity never touched, and care about their life in eternity. I apologize if this offends you, and further that it merrits sarcasm from you. I am no scholar of Paul, and for this I came here.

 

[grateful heart]

Another uselss assertion. Insight? No. Care? Yes. There is a nagging in the back of my mind that makes me wonder about the billions of lives that have passed in places where Christianity never touched, and care about their life in eternity. I apologize if this offends you, and further that it merrits sarcasm from you. I am no scholar of Paul, and for this I came here.

I do care as well, but why wonder about people that you will never meet and never know for certain who impacted them or where there are now, shouldnt your concern be for here and now

 

[Ganymede]

What do you expect me to say? That is an impossible question to answer, if i say that he did create hell, then you'll go on about him being cruel, if i say he didn't, you'll blast me for going against my beliefs, the fact is that i believe the bible is gods word. Period. it says in there that those who don't believe go to hell. I agree that is incredibly harsh. But god would have had a reason for it, and i'm not going to go into all the possible reasons he may have. It's like being stuck on the titanic when it's sinking and standing in the middle going.... Why is it sinking? Do ya think if we had of been going slightly more to the left? Do ya??? what about??? That's pointless. the point is to get to a life boat and get out of there. once that's done. then ya can go and ask ya questions. I'm not gonna post here again, this thread has reached an official circle and no more i say will make any difference. God bless all. I will be praying for yas.

Which is exactly the paradox I am trying to highlight. The idea that a loving, powerful, intelligent God would behave in such a way is just not reasonable.

Your solution is to assume the bible is right and say, "God has his reasons".

My solution was to say "No reasonable God would do that, so bible must be wrong.

 

[joemaloy]

The idea that a loving, powerful, intelligent God would behave in such a way is just not reasonable.

Your solution is to assume the bible is right and say, "God has his reasons".

My solution was to say "No reasonable God would do that, so bible must be wrong.

I agree, That is a correct statement.

But I still believe in God and still believe that Im going to Heaven, but there is much going on that is not being told.
But you can come to resonable conclusion if you start from the FOUNDATION up.
And God is the FOUNDATION.

First you have to define what God is and isnt.
God is not anything evil or sinfull, which includes

Hippocrite
Liar

He is a Loving caring God.
Perfect
All knowing
All powerful

And to say god is a failure would be an incorrect statement. Right.? Right

So to "let-have" ONE person go to hell would say God Failed.

So maybe nobody is.....

 

[Ledifni]

And I bet you have not travelled much in the World to see that the majority of Christians are not in the Western World and have not grown up in so called Christian homes.

I'm afraid that's not true. The majority of Christians live in predominantly Christian societies.

 

[Simonline]

I have spoken to many people of many faiths, and there seems to be one arising concern amongst non-christians in relation to Christianity. This concern, it seems, is rooted in the Christian proclamation of an all-loving God who casts His creations into Hell for an eternity of torture, though He created them knowing what they would do. Several things have, in response to this, been communicated to me by those who find this to be a somewhat questionable act:

1.) How can an All-Loving God cast His creations into fire?

2.) Why eternal torture? Death is vicious, but torture is cruel. Murder is criminal, but torture is disgusting. There are many choices to be had other than eternal torture, and yet God settled on this. In the words of a dear friend of mine, "They have a word for anyone who would torture a human being for long periods of time: evil."

3.) If God knows ahead of time how we shall behave, and that our destiny is eternal torture in Hell, why does he create those destined for such? Is this not akin to giving birth simply so that you may slowly and painfully kill your baby, or to planting a garden simply so that you may burn the field when harvest comes?

God, as Isaiah speaks, truly works all things: good and evil, light and dark.

Anyways, any feedback will be joyously recieved. Questions like this, as one Christian author wrote, "....are the questions which turn men into heretics."

Reading this post I have noticed several things.

Firstly, that God is not regarded in any absolute sense as the Creator to whom we, as his creatures, must all give an account for the way in which we have conducted ourselves throughout our existence but rather like some kind of tyrannical despot such as Stalin or Hitler who is simply imposing his will upon us as 'sovreign' human beings. This reveals a humanistic world view that 'Man is the measure of all things' and as such is absolutely sovreign over everything (including his Creator God)?

Secondly that God's absolute foreknowledge is the same as 'pre-programming' all his creatures so that they are simply incapable of making any kind of free moral choice and therefore of being morally responsible for their own actions. The truth however is quite different. Although God is omniscient this would only have an adverse effect upon our choices (moral or otherwise) if we also had access to God's omniscient foreknowledge, but since we don't it is absolutely irrelevent to our choice as finite creatures whether God is omniscient or not. God's omniscient foreknowledge neither adversely nor 'pro-versely' (?!) influence our choices. The knowledge may well be God's but the moral choice is ours and it is for that reason that God is totally justified in holding us as his creatures morally accountable for our actions.

Thirdly, separation from God for any creature is everlasting rather than Eternal since, as finite creatures, we do not have the capacity for Eternal existence. Only an Infinite Being (i.e. God) has the capacity to have Eternal existance (i.e existence without time or change). All finite creatures can only have everlasting temporal existence.

To be continued...

Simonline.

 

[Ganymede]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that we are not morally responsible for our own actions. Just as God is responsible for his actions, which include the everlasting torment of those who fail to make the grade and get into heaven.

 

[Ledifni]

Reading this post I have noticed several things.

Firstly, that God is not regarded in any absolute sense as the Creator to whom we, as his creatures, must all give an account for the way in which we have conducted ourselves throughout our existence but rather like some kind of tyrannical despot such as Stalin or Hitler who is simply imposing his will upon us as 'sovreign' human beings. This reveals a humanistic world view that 'Man is the measure of all things' and as such is absolutely sovreign over everything (including his Creator God)?

I don't think that was the point. The point is that the accounting you propose is utterly unfair -- a large majority of humanity will fail the accounting simply because of an accident of birth. It is not an accounting if God chooses for us whether we will pass or fail.