Concerned/Trying to Understand the Logic

[geocajun]

OK, I am goign to open this thread back up for posting - lets be sure we prayerfully consider our words before posting please.

Thanks

geocajun
OBOB Moderator
Team Love

 

[PeterPaul]

Logic say he exists, as well as science. If you walk around with your eyes closed are you going to be able to see where you are walking? No, of course not. If they open there eyes and lidten to there own science they see it.

Your request to prove God is exactly what the OP was talking about.

If logic proved God existed, He would be evident. You are suggesting "proof is all around you" which is not logical. So, explain to me how proof of God exists, in your point of view, as most theologians and philosophers have come close but failed, and you have come to this "proof".

 

[Disciple 3]

If logic proved God existed, He would be evident. You are suggesting "proof is all around you" which is not logical. So, explain to me how proof of God exists, in your point of view, as most theologians and philosophers have come close but failed, and you have come to this "proof".

My stance on this the whole time is the fact that matter is niether created or destroyed, it is never destroyed it only changes. I have repeatedly said this. I said that the proof of God comes with this scientific fact. If matter never is destroyed but only changes how are we to say there is no God? If matter can only change and can not be created by human hands how did it get here? Over and over I said this. My point the whole time is that the proof of God comes in the things around us. This was also Paul's stance. If I am correct about matter, that proves God. Why? How did it all get here.

The premise of the atheistic Big Bang theory is that there was nothing and then there was Gas. The Gas rubbed together and super heated into plasma. This plasma became so condensed and explosive, that it finally did explode. Out of all of this we came to evolve on this earth. The same goes for evolution. the atheistic evolutionist says that bacteria evolved from the gasses in the atmosphere. To make things short that bacteria turned into a tadpole, then lizards, then rats, then monkeys and finally they turned into a man wearing a suit and carrying a brief case. This whole theory when applied to atheism contrtadicts science. Some atheists would say the the gasses the turned to plasma were always there. The same thing we can say about God. Either way you look at it God is proven. The atheist with his arguments against God further proves him by contradicting himself and his science.

This has been my point the whole time. I feel that all the people who have disagreed with me have completley misunderstood my view. I hope this can clarify.

 

[Debi1967]

My stance on this the whole time is the fact that matter is niether created or destroyed, it is never destroyed it only changes. I have repeatedly said this. I said that the proof of God comes with this scientific fact. If matter never is destroyed but only changes how are we to say there is no God? If matter can only change and can not be created by human hands how did it get here? Over and over I said this. My point the whole time is that the proof of God comes in the things around us. This was also Paul's stance. If I am correct about matter, that proves God. Why? How did it all get here.

The premise of the atheistic Big Bang theory is that there was nothing and then there was Gas. The Gas rubbed together and super heated into plasma. This plasma became so condensed and explosive, that it finally did explode. Out of all of this we came to evolve on this earth. The same goes for evolution. the atheistic evolutionist says that bacteria evolved from the gasses in the atmosphere. To make things short that bacteria turned into a tadpole, then lizards, then rats, then monkeys and finally they turned into a man wearing a suit and carrying a brief case. This whole theory when applied to atheism contrtadicts science. Some atheists would say the the gasses the turned to plasma were always there. The same thing we can say about God. Either way you look at it God is proven. The atheist with his arguments against God further proves him by contradicting himself and his science.

This has been my point the whole time. I feel that all the people who have disagreed with me have completley misunderstood my view. I hope this can clarify.

Ok but and take this in the nature it is being given Steven it is not to be rude....
I understand where you are going with that but they will not accept it and the reason for that is they can say if God did it then our way is also applicable....and just so that you know you will not find many that actually use the Big Bang theory anymore as an argument....They also have to be open to the Holy Spirit as you have been so open to be able to see this and they are not that is the difference here, so it is not that logical or clearcut....It is to you and it makes sense to you but to them because they do not have the Holy Spirit to guide them then they are right and your way of thinking is illogical. Just as they accuse us of being unwaivering in our Faith, and that Faith is illogical when in actuality it is not because everyone in one way or another has to have faith in something at some time in their lives. But then they will say that they do not have any faith....this is not true everyone has to have some sooner or later about something in their lives even if it just your mother having Faith that you are going to do what you are supposed to when she is not with you because we as parents have to..

 

[Disciple 3]

and just so that you know you will not find many that actually use the Big Bang theory anymore as an argument

I understand that no one use it but it has been proven. We found what we suspect is it's echo. Now, getting to the point. I used the Big Bang to show what atheists believe and how illogical it was for there not to be a God.

It is to you and it makes sense to you but to them because they do not have the Holy Spirit to guide them then they are right and your way of thinking is illogical

I don't mean to come off rude commenting on and disecting everything you said. But what I am saying Is the same stance Paul took on this. It is also the same stance Solomon took in Proverbs when he said "ask the birds of the air they will tell you, or the beasts of the field for they will also tell you".

Just as they accuse us of being unwaivering in our Faith, and that Faith is illogical when in actuality it is not because everyone in one way or another has to have faith in something at some time in their lives.

This is true. But it takes much more faith to not believe in God than it does to believe. Again, this was the Bibles stance on this. It was the stance all of the great minds of the wisdom books and teachings took.

Again, I think people should read into my post more before commenting.

 

[PeterPaul]

I still say, what do molecules care what other molecules think?

 

[Disciple 3]

I still say, what do molecules care what other molecules think?

 

[PeterPaul]

I understand that no one use it but it has been proven. We found what we suspect is it's echo. Now, getting to the point. I used the Big Bang to show what atheists believe and how illogical it was for there not to be a God.

No it hasn't. That is why its a theory. A theory may resemble truth but it doesn't make it true.

Paul did say those things. Certainly they are very wise. Paul also lived in a different age. He never experienced the rise of reason as was to come, but relied on the experience, not intellect of the time.

Today's man is a complex creature. True, this day there are still Christians who don't need to "know" but just "believe". God bless them. However, most of our system in the world is based on reason, which doesn't contradict Christianity as we love God with all our minds as well as our hearts.

I agree we must have patience when dealing with atheists, and not take a hard stance as considering them "against Me". Some atheists certainly are, and others never knew.

 

[Disciple 3]

We found what we suspect is it's echo. Now, getting to the point

Paul also lived in a different age. He never experienced the rise of reason as was to come, but relied on the experience, not intellect of the time.

If we are to believe that Paul was influenced by the Holy Spirit and that God was speaking through him, how can this make sense?

 

[kel32]

Hi All,

I have a problem to pose and would like some input. I have been wondering for several days now how a publically professed anti-Christian, anti-God forum could be part of Christian forums? Now, I do understand that the idea to evangelize is prevalent here and that the intent is to do good. However, I feel it is grossly inappropriate to include it as a full fledged part of a wonderful, ecumenical Christian message board.

Ok, now the obvious answer is it is not MY message board so the decision is not mine to make. That's a given. But what is also a given is that we in some small way "appear" to be aligning ourselves with atheists, ignostics, pagans and a few I suspect by their comments to be plain ol' satanists. I feel this is a serious problem for a few reasons.

Primarily, I would like to mention the fact that "evil" is very real. If it were not so then there would be no such place as Hell. Opening a conduit to evil (devil worshippers) can and probably has had serious ramifications. Don't know if there is such a thing as cyper space possession, but I bet there is!

I am just wondering if there is not a safer way to share the Good News? Please understand, I am not questioning the sincere motive to evangelize. What I am wondering is if there is not another, more appropriate medium to use that is less potentially harmful.

Besides the very real danger of opening the door to evil, there is the subliminal message we are sending out. I mean, listen, so many people out there are sincerely searching for The Truth that is Our Lord Jesus. I can only imagine what they might think if they were to stumble upon that board first! Just imagine trying to share Christ with a Jew after having Hitler to dinner on a nightly basis. Do you think our message would be believable?

Again, I really would like to say that the motive of the board admin is indeed admirable. I am in no way slamming them or their very real desire to evangelize. I just worry about the greater good.

Thanks for listening,
Donna

Although the forum mentioned may have many who are there with the sole intent to defy and dispute Christianity, we must also realize that many there may be, in fact, in the process of being drawn to God. Not all people there were once Christians-turned-Atheists. And even if only one eventually came to the realization of the magnificance of God, and turned to Him, would this not be an awesome blessing? Even Jesus Himself said "...for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Matthew 9:13

~peace always~

 

[PeterPaul]

Surely Jesus could baffle us all with his intellect yet he chose to speak in a manner understandable to people of the time and to us. As Christians we can relate completely to what Paul's message is. Telling an atheist to look at the birds or the trees is not a suficient argument. Today we live in times of reason and science.

Could an atheist become moved by Paul's words? Certainly. Is it likely that many would just look at someone who said those words and not think they are living in a fantasy world. Most likely.

I come from Spain where atheists abound. That doesn't make me an expert or an exorcist of atheism, however in debate with most lay atheists, not professional mind you, I have found that debating natural law, order and Divine Intellect to be most effective.

IMO

PP

 

[Disciple 3]

Telling an atheist to look at the birds or the trees is not a suficient argument

That is true. But, my posting this is just an argument that the Bible is clear that "God's invisible atributes have been clearly seen since the beggining of time".

however in debate with most lay atheists, not professional mind you, I have found that debating natural law, order and Divine Intellect to be most effective.

That is true, it has been my whole point through out the debate.

 

[Debi1967]

Again, this was the Bibles stance on this. It was the stance all of the great minds of the wisdom books and teachings took.

Steven Hon The point I am trying to make is that they do not believe in the Bible.......So therefore this stance that you have as logical to you and as logical to us is invalid to them....

 

[Disciple 3]

Steven Hon The point I am trying to make is that they do not believe in the Bible.......So therefore this stance that you have as logical to you and as logical to us is invalid to them....

I'm not talking to an atheist. If I were I would use the worldy knowledge they have come to "know".

 

[Debi1967]

I'm not talking to an atheist. If I were I would use the worldy knowledge they have come to "know".

I thought that is what we have been talking about her is talking to Atheists and how to deal with them ......They certainly don't deal with us well trust me I am debating one right now that is not appreciating my bluntness .....

 

[Disciple 3]

Oh yeah I know. When I talk to atheists I use there own science against them. Atheistic evolution is so far fetched the only possible thing that one of them can say is "your ignorant". I was speaking in terms of just being able to prove God's existance. And what I have been saying is a concoction of simple science and logic. You know what the whole deal with matter is, now look at where everything is. If the earth is a little to far left, we don't exist, to far right, we don't exist. Our planet is in the PERFECT spot for life. No other place in the universe is known to be able to sustain life. What I have been saying is How I deal with them, just without the Bible verses. It usually works because the only thing they can say is that I'm ignorant and then they yell at me. They can never counter, so I'm gonna say that the logic used is sufficient to get even the worst atheist stuck and mad. I even got a blessing from one for this very same logic.

 

[VigilanteHamster]

This reminds me of something that happened with me just today... I was talking with a couple of friends of mine (both atheists) and we were having an interesting amalgamated discussion of science and religion... evolution, talking about Bible translations, etcetera and so forth. But then one of them made a comment that I will most definitely NOT repeat here because it was QUITE blasphemous... now, I do NOT offend easily (my posts in the RPG areas to the contrary-- I'm starting to lighten up), but if the teacher hadn't been watching I would've smacked him one. HARD.

I was STEAMED... it's like a burning rage rose overwhelmingly within me and made me want to kick this guy's can. I'm not gonna be talking to him for a few days... sure, he didn't mean to offend, but I need to calm down so I can speak rationally to him again.

Unfortunately, he's in four of my six classes. He's bloody hard to avoid. :/

 

[Gen 22:14]

Ok, in later posts we "made our peace" so to speak, but I do have a couple points to make! (In the name of fairness to the joust so to speak!)

So, if I'm not for Bush I'm against him? If I'm not for the plumber down the street I'm against him? Is it possible I just don't care one way or the other about the issue?

Sorry, but you must have missed my earlier post that stated the Biblical reference to the words of Jesus. He said this, not I and I would venture to say He's a whole lot more knowledgeable on who is for or against God than you or I! (reference Luke 9:50 and Mark 9:40)

I know many atheists, and most of them don't care one way or another about God. He simply doesn't register on their radars. While I admit that this isn't right, I think that you eliminating the grey area is highly unnecessary.

Ok, let's tackle this from another perspective that I have always found effective. I point out to them that if there is no God then we are both in the same boat anyway, neither of us any better nor worse than the other. When we die we die and that's the end of it. But on the off chance there IS indeed a God, don't you think it would be safer on your (the atheist I mean) part to ask God to reveal Himself to you? I mean, look at it this way, if I'm right and you're wrong then there will be a judgement day and I, through the grace of the God you say doesn't exist, will be waving to you from inside the gates. (Remember I am talking to the atheist here, not you....)


At this point I am going to break up and post the rest in part two because it is getting long.

Donna

 

[nyj]

If the earth is a little to far left, we don't exist, to far right, we don't exist. Our planet is in the PERFECT spot for life.

And they'll simply tell you that it was all a simple matter of mathematical probability.

 

[Gen 22:14]

Okay... salvation is good. I believe that we can all accept this. I fail to see what this has to do with you and I, and our discussion. Please elucidate.

Um, let my aging brain cells think a moment here. Ah, yes! We were debating who is or is no qualified to evangelize! Ok, my point is this. It is unfair to the one being evangelized to give him/her erroneous or half truths. Rather I contend we show them the goodness of God by sharing what He has and is doing in our lives. Remember, to speak a false tenet of our faith is by far worse than speaking none at all! Would that we all could be Mother Teresa and be a living testimony of our belief system.

Like I said. You, and many others, are so afraid of their own inabilities to convince others of the goodness of Christ that you're unafraid to show people any other alternatives.

All I meant to opine is that you don't seem to have had any interaction with atheists besides the few militant ones on these forums and what your priests have told you about them.

Again, I reference my education. Guess I didn't share that my major in Religious Studies was done with an emphasis on missions? And, unfortunately, no, I am a bad bad Catholic here because I take what most priests say with a grain of salt. I look to my professors and what various theologans have to say before basing my assumptions on anything. You have no idea where I have lived in my life, how many states or countries I have witnessed in, so please refrain from assuming what I am afraid or unafraid to do. This is really a pitfall in today's youth. Well, I remember my mother telling me the same thing when I was your age and I couldn't get over how little she knew. The older I got the more impressed I was with her experiencial wisdom. How I wish I still had her to impart this wisdom on me to this very day.

I assure you, statistics is not nearly as grand as guidance counselors would have you believe.

Again, my point exactly! It has been over 30 years since I have had the dubious pleasure of interacting with these unique beings. I graduated high school in all probability before your mother was even born! Hence, I can't even recollect what they said! LOL (funning here, so stay cool!)

My Guidance Counselor lives upstairs and He is the Counselor I seek in times of need.


It's been fun jousting!
Donna