Concensus

[mike1reynolds]

I like this verse best lol

Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice;

for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.


Peace

Fireinfolding

Uh, my dear, you have the context of the whole scene turned upside down. Sarah had chosen Hagar to be Abrahams second wife so that he could have a son, but then she had Isaac.

Now Sarah was demanding the DEATH of Hagar and her son by Abraham. God was telling him that his second wife and his son were not going to die, despite Sarah's cruel demand that they be cast out into the desert, and that Ishmael too would grow to become the father of a nation, despite the fact that Sarah was trying to kill him.

It was a very unusual situation, which was why God had to step in. Under ordinary circumstances if a woman demanded the death of a man's children by a previous wife, what would you think of her in that context?

This is really quite a sickening example to try and rest your case on.

 

[Fireinfolding]

WA, thanks for the case study in why women should not be allowed any authority in giving spiritual advice.

1Titus 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Usurp authority authenteo

1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3) an absolute master 4) to govern, exercise dominion over one



A Woman shouldnt kill the man with her own hands.

Ever hear a woman say, "I want to strangle him"?

Shes not to do that, though she be tempted lol

But the Lord did not give THAT KIND of authority to MEN either. Its written ONCE in all of scripture. Its not speaking of the kind of Authority Christ gives (which has nothing to do with that. Ever do an authority study? Thats interesting.

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Fireinfolding]

Uh, my dear, you have the context of the whole scene turned upside down. Sarah had chosen Hagar to be Abrahams second wife so that he could have a son, but then she had Isaac.

Now Sarah was demanding the DEATH of Hagar and her son by Abraham. God was telling him that his second wife and his son were not going to die, despite Sarah's cruel demand that they be cast out into the desert, and that Ishmael too would grow to become the father of a nation.

It was a very unusual situation, which was why God had to step in. Under ordinary circumstances if a woman demanded the death of a man's children by a previous wife, what would you think of her in that context?

This is really quite a sickening example to try and rest your case on.

Gen 21:10 answers to Gal 4:30 with a NEVERTHELESS by it.

Mike... These things are allegories PLEASE READ Were you not rejoicing over the death of others and thinking it was sane? Well HERE it ACTUALLY IS

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[mike1reynolds]

A Woman shouldnt kill the man with her own hands.

Ever hear a woman say, "I want to strangle him"?

An ironic follow-up to your quote of Sarah's attempts to murder Abraham's baby boy.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Not all of Genesis is allegory. This part is history, not allegory.

What did Ishmael do wrong, he was a baby?

Yes, I am happy that the harlot capitol of the US was wiped out. How does that compare to Sarah demanding the death of a baby?

 

[Fireinfolding]

An ironic follow-up to your quote of Sarah's attempts to murder Abraham's other child.

MIKE its an ALLEGORY, PAUL SAYS, its a spiritual truth as it pertains to things written in the New Covenant. Have you not checked the verses I just gave you concerning it?

Besides ... She wasnt killing THE MAN, only casting out the bondwoman

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[mike1reynolds]

I should add that while Genesis 21 is history and not allegory, Gal 4:21-30 is explicitly allegory, quite in contrast.

Galatians 4:24 These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Not all of Genesis is allegory. This part is history, not allegory.

What did Ishmael do wrong, he was a baby?

Yes, I am happy that the harlot capitol of the US was wiped out. How does that compare to Sarah demanding the death of a baby?

Its an ALLEGORY PAUL SAYS SO, unless you dont believe Paul? Not only so, God says HEARKEN TO HER IN REGARDS TO THIS.

Then you call me sick over an allegory but pronounce yourself HAPPY over others in reality being wiped out? I'll never understand that.


Fireinfolding

 

[mike1reynolds]

Where does it say that Genesis 21 is allegory and not history? It does not say that anywhere, it says that what he is doing is using that as an allegorical image.

If it is pure allegory, how come no one knew it till Paul, and how come the Jews and the Muslims STILL don't?

And yes, the whole image of infanticide is profoundly sickening. It certainly made Abraham sick. The only reason he allowed the banishing was because God assured him they would not die. Otherwise, he would have told Sarah to go take a hike.

 

[Yeznik]

I didnt say equal in their roles...
BUT we are equal in God's eyes. AS I quoted that scripture ....that we receive grace equally....etc

I also said that women are to choose at the behest of Pauls words to submit in order to please God.

But men are to be humble and submissive too.

Roles may differ, especially in the Church, since Jesus was a man and choose men for this particular ministry, has nothing to do with a marriage. OR for that matter...calling women evil.

As I said, men are also [IN marriage] to submit and please their wives, not insisting on their own ways.

See;
Women please God by choosing to submit to their husbands. IE, thats between them and God.

Men are not told they must make their wives submit.
They are told to LOVE their wives.

INSISTING on their own way....is not love. Mistreating women and demanding compliance IS NOT LOVE.









I suggest you get past your past any way you can.

I am seeing red.

We agree we are not equal. In God eyes in regards to Grace yes, everyone is equal, no one is better. I don't consider myself equal to others in Gods eye, look at Saint Mary, or any Saint of the Church, I admit that there are people who were capable of doing and have done Gods Will better that I can. There are women better than men in regards to serving God and there are men better than women serving God. Yes, my point is that the man has to be a God fearing man, not just any man. Agreed men are suppose to be humble as well, look at Saint Joseph. I don't believe women are evil. I don't understand your point in regards to making women submit, to what? Yes husbands are suppose to love their wives.

Here is a story I once heard from a priest from a marriage service. After the service the priest said a couple of words to the bride and groom. The priest turned to the bride and said, "Remeber that the man is the head of the family," then the priest turned to the groom and told the groom, "Remember that the women is the heart of the family, and I tell you, you have promised that you will never break her heart," and the priest turns to the bride and says, " Remember that you being the heart promised not to give too many headaches to the head," (get it, heart, pressure headache). Everyone laughed.
Mistreating and insisting to ANYONE is not love, not just our spouses.

The only thing that gets me is people getting divorced because they have found Jesus in their lives. Western culture, have alot of self centered idealogy that unfortunately creeps into religions.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I should add that while Genesis 21 is history and not allegory, Gal 4:21-30 is explicitly allegory, quite in contrast.

Galatians 4:24 These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants.

Gen 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

God says do NOT let what she says BE GREIVOUS IN THY SIGHT its an ALLEGORY

Gen 21:12 God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

And ofcourse... HEARKEN UNTO HER VOICE

Because God was going to do mighty things through her saying

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.


Fireinfolding

 

[mike1reynolds]

FiF, do you believe that Abraham never really existed?

 

[mike1reynolds]

God says do NOT let what she says BE GREIVOUS IN THY SIGHT its an ALLEGORY

You are claiming that God said not to let it bother Abraham because it was all just a fantasy?

You are really out to lunch.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Where does it say that Genesis 21 is allegory and not history? It does not say that anywhere, it says that what he is doing is using that as an allegorical image.

If it is pure allegory, how come no one knew it till Paul, and how come the Jews and the Muslims STILL don't?

And yes, the whole image of infanticide is profoundly sickening. It certainly made Abraham sick. The only reason he allowed the banishing was because God assured him they would not die. Otherwise, he would have told Sarah to go take a hike.

Adam was a FIGURE, and the LAW having a SHADOW was not the VERY IMAGE OF THINGS.

In my prior post I posted to you. God says in Hosea that He multiplied visions and USED SIMILITUDES. Paul CONFIRMS THIS

God struck Davids Child sick and he died on THE SEVENTH DAY, LET US REJOICE DAVID DID

Ofcourse if your seeing it carnally it would make no sense. I might know one who bear OUR SICKNESSES DO YOU?

The image makes you less sick then the REALITY of such things?

Fireinfolding

 

[mike1reynolds]

Welcome to my ignore list. It is a list of one.

 

[Fireinfolding]

You are claiming that God said not to let it bother Abraham because it was all just a fantasy?

You are really out to lunch.

Wheres my quote? I quoted God. God also says He spoke in similitudes I dont question God.

Paul was the one who said the Holy Spirit teaches us. When he teaches us its in comparing SPIRITUAL THINGS WITH SPIRITUAL.

Not my words

Fireinfolding

 

[Fireinfolding]

Welcome to my ignore list. It is a list of one.

 

[Fireinfolding]

FiF, do you believe that Abraham never really existed?

Not that you can SEE my reply (lest you peek)

but it was Jesus who said Abraham rejoiced to SEE MY DAY and was GLAD.

We just dont know these things after the FLESH Paul says. His words are SPIRIT and LIFE

Fireinfolding

 

[WarriorAngel]

Jewish women still do. Married Jewish women all wear wigs. Some things are cultural distinctions, in their day for an unmarried woman to go around without a scarf was an open invitation to adultry. It isn't the same at all now, so that is one of those things that does not translate across cultures.

However, that is a very narrow and isolated example. How much of the New Testament in general do you think is now invalid? The more general admonitions about whether women should be allow to have authority in spiritual matters, the most important matters of all, is not something that is so radically altered by a change in cultural context.

Ahhhh, then, so athiest men have the rule of thumb in spiritual matters??

You paint with a broad brush.

Lets try this again. 1 Peter 3:1-7, this time with highlights for the obstanent and contumacious who don't want to see:



1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel

Lets try this again.....
Women may be subject, but the Bible never tells a man it is his place to make her as such!!!

The part about loving a woman means NOT INSISTING on your own way.
All too often men think these verses mean they can lord over a woman to be subject.

Thus they break the commandment of love. The greatest commandment of all, BTW!!!!!

Insisting a woman comply is not love. You are not taking her free will into account. TO which is why Paul [the man of God], not the men, are teaching the woman what pleases GOD!!!

Im right there with ya sis

1Cr 7:3 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.


Peace

Fireinfolding

Women are not servants to be treated as an evil person or a sub human. But to be loved as a man loves himself.
Does a man wish to be put into subjection and made to feel like the least??

By no means do they desire this.
Thus they are to treat their wives as THEY THEMSELVES WOULD LIKE TO BE TREATED.

1. I wasn't aware that was for me.
2. I like her attitude better.

It wasnt to you.

I put myself in your shoes dear, and then she replied to me with regards to your issue.

Now read it again understanding that it was indeed given as advice for your situation, rather than merely evaluating it as a personal insult to me.

Actually you said due to lack of a mother figure you do not know how to act with women.
If you do not know, its best to take advice and NOT treat women with contempt.
BUT ANOTHER verse in scriptures...
Men are NOT allowed to even look at their wives with contempt.

I am seeing red.

We agree we are not equal. In God eyes in regards to Grace yes, everyone is equal, no one is better. I don't consider myself equal to others in Gods eye, look at Saint Mary, or any Saint of the Church, I admit that there are people who were capable of doing and have done Gods Will better that I can. There are women better than men in regards to serving God and there are men better than women serving God. Yes, my point is that the man has to be a God fearing man, not just any man. Agreed men are suppose to be humble as well, look at Saint Joseph. I don't believe women are evil. I don't understand your point in regards to making women submit, to what? Yes husbands are suppose to love their wives.

Here is a story I once heard from a priest from a marriage service. After the service the priest said a couple of words to the bride and groom. The priest turned to the bride and said, "Remeber that the man is the head of the family," then the priest turned to the groom and told the groom, "Remember that the women is the heart of the family, and I tell you, you have promised that you will never break her heart," and the priest turns to the bride and says, " Remember that you being the heart promised not to give too many headaches to the head," (get it, heart, pressure headache). Everyone laughed.
Mistreating and insisting to ANYONE is not love, not just our spouses.

The only thing that gets me is people getting divorced because they have found Jesus in their lives. Western culture, have alot of self centered idealogy that unfortunately creeps into religions.

 

[IamAdopted]

We as woman are to be subject to our own husbands. Submissive to them as we are to the Lord. In everything. If our own husbands are unloving does not mean that we can be unsubmissive. Now if there is abuse then we can go to the church and God has set up the law also to protect people from this abuse. whether it be male or female or child. But if the husband is loving as Christ commands it is much easier to be submissive. But even if they are not loving we are to submit to them. For this is our command from our Lord. Sarah even called Abraham Lord and obeyed what He said to do. Abraham was a mighty man of Faith and He loved God.