Concensus

[icedtea]

Never knew my grandfathers. My father was quite abusive and never wanted me near a guy. What did he think? Who knows. Thankfully, I am not married anymore.

 

[mike1reynolds]

My reading of the account (KJV), including Paul's revelation that "the woman was in the transgression", but, "the man was not deceived", indicates that Eve received the 'knowledge of good and evil' first and used this powerful knowledge to convince Adam to share in her sin. Of course this gave her a tremendous advantage over Adam-perhaps the same advantage that Satan had had over her.

That Adam was not deceived by her arguements and pleadings leads me to believe that Eve probably played her best card, that of sexuality, to finally convince Adam to share in her sin. That they were both 'ashamed' seems to indicate that they recognized later that they had misused this gift.

Actually it is Timothy, but you hit all the major points of the sequence of verses that you referred to:

Women Instructed​

9 Likewise, I want (U)women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,

Misues of power issues, as you said.

11 (V)A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.

12 (W)But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

13 (X)For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.

14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but (Y)the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in (Z)faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

 

[Yeznik]

Ha ha! That is an interesting point. The question of who was more culpable is rather moot, since the person in authority is always more culpable. Given the argument that primary authority in society should ultimately be masculine, naturally such an argument would dictate that Adam was more culpable in the Fall.

This again supports the difference of the role of men in women in society.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You seem to be reading more into it than is written.

I think that scripture should be carefully studied for deeper and fuller meanings.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Never knew my grandfathers. My father was quite abusive and never wanted me near a guy. What did he think? Who knows. Thankfully, I am not married anymore.

Well, my mother was extremely negligent, so much so that she lost custody of me when I was 4. So I am no stranger to how this makes future relationships much more difficult. I was lucky to have my grandmother, great grandmother and aunt to take my mother's place as feminine roll models in my life, but I've still had some serious problems. When you have issues with your opposite gender parent it sets you up for all sorts of problems in your adult romantic relationships.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Back to the main topic:

[bible]1 Corinthians 14:34[/bible]

 

[icedtea]

Well, then they should wear head coverings then too, right?

 

[mike1reynolds]

[bible]1 Peter 3:1-7[/bible]

 

[Fireinfolding]

Well, then they should wear head coverings then too, right?

Yes a woman is to cover HER HEAD, so just throw a blanket OVER HIM

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[mike1reynolds]

Well, then they should wear head coverings then too, right?

Jewish women still do. Married Jewish women all wear wigs. Some things are cultural distinctions, in their day for an unmarried woman to go around without a scarf was an open invitation to adultry. It isn't the same at all now, so that is one of those things that does not translate across cultures.

However, that is a very narrow and isolated example. How much of the New Testament in general do you think is now invalid? The more general admonitions about whether women should be allow to have authority in spiritual matters, the most important matters of all, is not something that is so radically altered by a change in cultural context.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I believe that men and women are not equal. This is an inventation of Western Idealism that starts to break down roles in family and society. Now, I am not saying that men are better than women, I am saying that we are designed for 2 different roles, in society and in family. This doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any women doctors, or leaders. Again look at Mary, "May it be done to me according to your word", this applies to both men and women. But her ROLE was the Mother of our Lord, and she brought holiness to motherhood, which in the Armenian tradition, the mother of the family tries to carry this (Mary) mentality.

I didnt say equal in their roles...
BUT we are equal in God's eyes. AS I quoted that scripture ....that we receive grace equally....etc

I also said that women are to choose at the behest of Pauls words to submit in order to please God.

But men are to be humble and submissive too.

Roles may differ, especially in the Church, since Jesus was a man and choose men for this particular ministry, has nothing to do with a marriage. OR for that matter...calling women evil.

As I said, men are also [IN marriage] to submit and please their wives, not insisting on their own ways.

See;
Women please God by choosing to submit to their husbands. IE, thats between them and God.

Men are not told they must make their wives submit.
They are told to LOVE their wives.

INSISTING on their own way....is not love. Mistreating women and demanding compliance IS NOT LOVE.

Well, my mother was extremely negligent, so much so that she lost custody of me when I was 4. So I am no stranger to how this makes future relationships much more difficult. I was lucky to have my grandmother, great grandmother and aunt to take my mother's place as feminine roll models in my life, but I've still had some serious problems. When you have issues with your opposite gender parent it sets you up for all sorts of problems in your adult romantic relationships.

I suggest you get past your past any way you can.

 

[Fireinfolding]

A woman should not kill the man with her own hands

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Fireinfolding]

I didnt say equal in their roles...
BUT we are equal in God's eyes. AS I quoted that scripture ....that we receive grace equally....etc

I also said that women are to choose at the behest of Pauls words to submit in order to please God.

But men are to be humble and submissive too.

Roles may differ, especially in the Church, since Jesus was a man and choose men for this particular ministry, has nothing to do with a marriage. OR for that matter...calling women evil.

As I said, men are also [IN marriage] to submit and please their wives, not insisting on their own ways.

See;
Women please God by choosing to submit to their husbands. IE, thats between them and God.

Men are not told they must make their wives submit.
They are told to LOVE their wives.

INSISTING on their own way....is not love. Mistreating women and demanding compliance IS NOT LOVE.

VERY GOOD!!


Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[WarriorAngel]

VERY GOOD!!


Peace

Fireinfolding

I do not think the Apostles ever taught that we were no longer free to choose....just because we should submit.

Men are not to make us submit.

Often overlooked.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Lets try this again. 1 Peter 3:1-7, this time with highlights for the obstanent and contumacious who don't want to see:



1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel

 

[Fireinfolding]

Im right there with ya sis

1Cr 7:3 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[mike1reynolds]

I suggest you get past your past any way you can.

Wow, that is profound!

HowardDean, whose advise to you do you like better, WarriorAngel's or mine?

WA, thanks for the case study in why women should not be allowed any authority in giving spiritual advice.

 

[icedtea]

1. I wasn't aware that was for me.
2. I like her attitude better.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I like this verse best lol

Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice;

for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.


Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[mike1reynolds]

1. I wasn't aware that was for me.
2. I like her attitude better.

I put myself in your shoes dear, and then she replied to me with regards to your issue.

Now read it again understanding that it was indeed given as advice for your situation, rather than merely evaluating it as a personal insult to me.