Compiling a list of potentially heterodox churches and denominational outliers

FireDragon76 · Aug 16, 2023

Blatant interference by foreign missionaries in China is not a good idea if you care about a Christian witness there. It is a settled matter among longstanding Christian groups in China, that foreign missionaries endanger Christian mission. That is why the national Protestant church is called the "Three Self Church". This predates Communism, and has to do with the Chinese peoples' desire to uphold self-sufficiency in all matters, including religion.

bbbbbbb · Aug 16, 2023

The Liturgist said:
Indeed, Xi Jinping is a monster. Have you ever watched The China Show podcast on YouTube?

I have not, but will now that you have brought it to my attention. Thank you!

bbbbbbb · Aug 16, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
Blatant interference by foreign missionaries in China is not a good idea if you care about a Christian witness there. It is a settled matter among longstanding Christian groups in China, that foreign missionaries endanger Christian mission. That is why the national Protestant church is called the "Three Self Church". This predates Communism, and has to do with the Chinese peoples' desire to uphold self-sufficiency in all matters, including religion.

That is the official line of the Department of Religious Affairs of the Peoples Republic of China. At present there are no foreign missionaries known to be in China. I went there at the express invitation of Chinese Christians and spent my time in teaching them and not in proselytization. I have been asked by many well-meaning American Christians how many Chinese folks I led to Christ while I was there. They are disappointed when I explain to them that the Chinese Christians are doing an amazing work of evangelization on their own and they do not need more Bibles or more evangelists. The need for training, however, is virtually as great as the need for language teachers in China. A little-known fact is that there are two national languages in China - putonghua (which means, common tongue, or, as we would say, Mandarin Chinese) and English. English is a required subject in all of the schools of China, but most English teachers are woefully ignorant of the language. The Chinese government welcomes native English-speaking English teachers, especially Americans, to teach in its schools.

The Liturgist · Dec 24, 2023

I have added the Urban Village Church in Chicago, which ironically I discovered while researching the reaction to Fiducia Supplicans.

RileyG · Jan 5, 2024

The Liturgist said:
I have added the Urban Village Church in Chicago, which ironically I discovered while researching the reaction to Fiducia Supplicans.

They are affiliated with the UMC Church. Looking at their website blows my mind. I will end it there.

The Liturgist · Jan 19, 2024

With great sadness, I have been compelled by circumstances to add the first Roman Catholic parish to this list, as a denominational outlier: St. Paul Catholic Church in Lexington, Kentucky, which has a priest whose actions appear to exceed even what the disturbing Fiducia Supplicans permits, insofar as a blessing of a Lesbian couple was done by a priest wearing a rainbow stole in the nave of this parish, which clearly makes the blessing liturgical, although I believe my stalwart Catholic friends @RileyG @chevyontheriver and @Michie are in agreement with me that all blessings are liturgical by nature.

Please note, however, that I am adding this parish specifically as a denominational outlier and not as potentially heterodox, since if it is like most Catholic churches, it has multiple priests who conduct services there, and it is entirely possible, and indeed I hope, that there might be other priests there who are more in line with traditional Roman Catholic Orthodoxy. I do not regard the Roman Catholic Church as heterodox, and am very pleased that so many of its clergy and laity are heroically working to overturn Fiducia Supplicans and I am praying continually for their success. I think the same spirit that enabled Pro-Life Catholics to play such a huge role in the recent triumph over Roe v. Wade can prevail in this instance as well.

The Liturgist · Jan 19, 2024

I also added Sunshine Cathedral, which boasts itself as “The Largest Queer Church” and is the largest part of the Metropolitan Community Church after coming across a sermon delivered by its pastor in which he denied the relevance or importance of the miracles our Holy and Apostolic Tradition attributes to God, such as the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ.

bbbbbbb · Jan 19, 2024

The Liturgist said:
With great sadness, I have been compelled by circumstances to add the first Roman Catholic parish to this list, as a denominational outlier: St. Paul Catholic Church in Lexington, Kentucky, which has a priest whose actions appear to exceed even what the disturbing Fiducia Supplicans permits, insofar as a blessing of a Lesbian couple was done by a priest wearing a rainbow stole in the nave of this parish, which clearly makes the blessing liturgical, although I believe my stalwart Catholic friends @RileyG @chevyontheriver and @Michie are in agreement with me that all blessings are liturgical by nature.

Please note, however, that I am adding this parish specifically as a denominational outlier and not as potentially heterodox, since if it is like most Catholic churches, it has multiple priests who conduct services there, and it is entirely possible, and indeed I hope, that there might be other priests there who are more in line with traditional Roman Catholic Orthodoxy. I do not regard the Roman Catholic Church as heterodox, and am very pleased that so many of its clergy and laity are heroically working to overturn Fiducia Supplicans and I am praying continually for their success. I think the same spirit that enabled Pro-Life Catholics to play such a huge role in the recent triumph over Roe v. Wade can prevail in this instance as well.

That is really quite surprising. I did a quick visit to the church website. I was not surprised to find only one priest serving in this church. In the not-so-distant past this church probably would have been staffed by two or more priests. As is typical today it provides a Saturday evening mass and a Sunday morning mass, both in English and two subsequently masses in Spanish on Sunday in addition to daily masses, presumably in English. There are two deacons and the director of music who is also the director of LGBQT+ ministries. It seems to be a true stereotype that homosexual men gravitate to the professions of interior design and church organist and, some would say, monastic life.

bbbbbbb · Jan 19, 2024

The Liturgist said:
I also added Sunshine Cathedral, which boasts itself as “The Largest Queer Church” and is the largest part of the Metropolitan Community Church after coming across a sermon delivered by its pastor in which he denied the relevance or importance of the miracles our Holy and Apostolic Tradition attributes to God, such as the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ.

Although the MCC as a whole, unlike the UUC and the UCC, at least has given lip service to orthodox Christian doctrines, it comes as no surprise to find that, despite the welcoming stance of these other denominations, the MCC is now attracting a heterodox membership.

chevyontheriver · Jan 19, 2024

The Liturgist said:
With great sadness, I have been compelled by circumstances to add the first Roman Catholic parish to this list, as a denominational outlier: St. Paul Catholic Church in Lexington, Kentucky, which has a priest whose actions appear to exceed even what the disturbing Fiducia Supplicans permits, insofar as a blessing of a Lesbian couple was done by a priest wearing a rainbow stole in the nave of this parish, which clearly makes the blessing liturgical, although I believe my stalwart Catholic friends @RileyG @chevyontheriver and @Michie are in agreement with me that all blessings are liturgical by nature.

Please note, however, that I am adding this parish specifically as a denominational outlier and not as potentially heterodox, since if it is like most Catholic churches, it has multiple priests who conduct services there, and it is entirely possible, and indeed I hope, that there might be other priests there who are more in line with traditional Roman Catholic Orthodoxy. I do not regard the Roman Catholic Church as heterodox, and am very pleased that so many of its clergy and laity are heroically working to overturn Fiducia Supplicans and I am praying continually for their success. I think the same spirit that enabled Pro-Life Catholics to play such a huge role in the recent triumph over Roe v. Wade can prevail in this instance as well.

My response is not to add a bunch of places to the list, though sadly I could. It is to give people a prospect of finding a solid Catholic church. I use masstimes.org, enter in the relevant zip code, and search for parishes that have perpetual (or at least significant regular) adoration times. Those are the winner parishes for the most part.

The Liturgist · Jan 19, 2024

bbbbbbb said:
church organist and, some would say, monastic life

I’ve never met a gay organist or a gay monk, and I know a few hundred of each. Gay interior designers, fashion designers, flight attendants and even a minority pilots, sure.

Actually in the Orthodox Church it is forbidden by an ancient canon for anyone to become a monk “because they abhor womankind,” which is an old fashioned way of conveying the concept of homosexuality. Additionally, it has been forbidden since the late fourth century for boys to live in Orthodox monasteries, whereas it took much longer for this to be adopted in the West with regards to oblates, but adopted it was.

Paidiske · Jan 19, 2024

The Liturgist said:
I’ve never met a gay organist

Have you not? I know many. It seems to be a niche in which same-sex attracted people are able to flourish.

The Liturgist · Jan 19, 2024

bbbbbbb said:
Although the MCC as a whole, unlike the UUC and the UCC, at least has given lip service to orthodox Christian doctrines, it comes as no surprise to find that, despite the welcoming stance of these other denominations, the MCC is now attracting a heterodox membership.

You are mistaken - the UCC historically has given more than mere lip service to Christian doctrines, and there is even a small group of traditionalist UCC parishes called the Faithful and Welcoming Group.

The Liturgist · Jan 19, 2024

Paidiske said:
Have you not? I know many. It seems to be a niche in which same-sex attracted people are able to flourish.

I’ve never met one, and I can’t even think of any well known historical church organists who swung that way. Herbert Howells, Healey Willan, Sir Francis Jackson, JS Bach, and the numerous personal friends I have behind the keyboard were and are all married with children. And Jurgen Wolf, who is the most talented organist I have heard in person, at the Nicholaskirche in Leipzig, which also has my favorite organ and was also a central site of protest against the DDR in the weeks leading up to the fall of the Berlin Wall, where the Stasi at one point attempted unsuccessfully to force their way in with a battering ram, but the faithful blocked the huge wooden doors on the other side in one of the more epic moments of 1989, well, suffice it to say his wife assists him as a page turner and also arranged for me to meet him, in 2001.

For that matter, the really annoying organist at St. Francis of Assisi Episcopal Church whose music was often so bad I made a point of attending the 8 AM said service, was also completely straight.

Now I don’t deny there are gay organists, since I have met plenty of gay musicians, but its not a profession I think of when I think of professions which attract persons of that, shall we say, inclination.

Flight attendants, on the other hand - I’m not sure I’ve met a male flight attendant who was straight. I’m sure they exist, and statistically I probably have encountered some.

Also a significant portion of cast members at Disneyland are gay, but at Walt Disney World, not so many, particularly because a great many are university students who are able to take a semester or two off to work there as part of a program, and indeed at EPCOT World Showcase the cast members at the pavilions are all university students from the countries they represent. And because there are no formal Africa pavillions, last time I was there there was an informal Africa pavilion with shops on a walkway near the Mexico, Norway and Japan pavillions.

bbbbbbb · Jan 19, 2024

Paidiske said:
Have you not? I know many. It seems to be a niche in which same-sex attracted people are able to flourish.

I agree. I have a good friend who is a heterosexual organist and he has known numerous homosexual organists. In addition, my cousin's cousin recently retired as a church pianist and he is quite gay.

RileyG · Jan 20, 2024

The Liturgist said:
With great sadness, I have been compelled by circumstances to add the first Roman Catholic parish to this list, as a denominational outlier: St. Paul Catholic Church in Lexington, Kentucky, which has a priest whose actions appear to exceed even what the disturbing Fiducia Supplicans permits, insofar as a blessing of a Lesbian couple was done by a priest wearing a rainbow stole in the nave of this parish, which clearly makes the blessing liturgical, although I believe my stalwart Catholic friends @RileyG @chevyontheriver and @Michie are in agreement with me that all blessings are liturgical by nature.

Please note, however, that I am adding this parish specifically as a denominational outlier and not as potentially heterodox, since if it is like most Catholic churches, it has multiple priests who conduct services there, and it is entirely possible, and indeed I hope, that there might be other priests there who are more in line with traditional Roman Catholic Orthodoxy. I do not regard the Roman Catholic Church as heterodox, and am very pleased that so many of its clergy and laity are heroically working to overturn Fiducia Supplicans and I am praying continually for their success. I think the same spirit that enabled Pro-Life Catholics to play such a huge role in the recent triumph over Roe v. Wade can prevail in this instance as well.

Lord have mercy! How sad

RileyG · Jan 20, 2024

The Liturgist said:
I also added Sunshine Cathedral, which boasts itself as “The Largest Queer Church” and is the largest part of the Metropolitan Community Church after coming across a sermon delivered by its pastor in which he denied the relevance or importance of the miracles our Holy and Apostolic Tradition attributes to God, such as the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ.

The MCC was founded for "gay people to worship God" (their words not mine). That doesn't surprise me. The first straight member was the leading founder's mother who was "canonized" as a "saint" in the Church.

MarkRohfrietsch · Jan 20, 2024

The Liturgist said:
I’ve never met one, and I can’t even think of any well known historical church organists who swung that way. Herbert Howells, Healey Willan, Sir Francis Jackson, JS Bach, and the numerous personal friends I have behind the keyboard were and are all married with children. And Jurgen Wolf, who is the most talented organist I have heard in person, at the Nicholaskirche in Leipzig, which also has my favorite organ and was also a central site of protest against the DDR in the weeks leading up to the fall of the Berlin Wall, where the Stasi at one point attempted unsuccessfully to force their way in with a battering ram, but the faithful blocked the huge wooden doors on the other side in one of the more epic moments of 1989, well, suffice it to say his wife assists him as a page turner and also arranged for me to meet him, in 2001.

For that matter, the really annoying organist at St. Francis of Assisi Episcopal Church whose music was often so bad I made a point of attending the 8 AM said service, was also completely straight.

Now I don’t deny there are gay organists, since I have met plenty of gay musicians, but its not a profession I think of when I think of professions which attract persons of that, shall we say, inclination.

Flight attendants, on the other hand - I’m not sure I’ve met a male flight attendant who was straight. I’m sure they exist, and statistically I probably have encountered some.

Also a significant portion of cast members at Disneyland are gay, but at Walt Disney World, not so many, particularly because a great many are university students who are able to take a semester or two off to work there as part of a program, and indeed at EPCOT World Showcase the cast members at the pavilions are all university students from the countries they represent. And because there are no formal Africa pavillions, last time I was there there was an informal Africa pavilion with shops on a walkway near the Mexico, Norway and Japan pavillions.

I knew one. I also knew a couple who were "effeminate" but who were in heterosexual marriages with children. I would say, not all that common.

RileyG · Jan 31, 2024

Paidiske said:
Have you not? I know many. It seems to be a niche in which same-sex attracted people are able to flourish.

Speaking as someone with experience, many same-sex attracted celibate Christians do not identify as "gay" or identify with the LGBT community because it's too political. We do not like those terms.

Blessings

Paidiske · Jan 31, 2024

RileyG said:
Speaking as someone with experience, many same-sex attracted celibate Christians do not identify as "gay" or identify with the LGBT community because it's too political. We do not like those terms.

Fair point, but the people I was thinking of aren't necessarily celibate.

Compiling a list of potentially heterodox churches and denominational outliers

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