Comparative Religions

[dclements]

Several years ago when I was first interested in studying philosophy I took a Comparative Religions course at a local community college (couldn't afford to pay for a four year college) and liked quite a bit of what I learned from it. In layman's terms most of what the course was about trying to get people to try to understand other peoples culture and/or beliefs without letting their own biases get tin the way; and to get us to understand that our ways may not always be the right and/or only way or even the best way. While that sounds kind of simple in theory (since we are taught since kindergarten to understand and try to respect others) it can be difficult for teens and adults to respect other peoples beliefs and view of the world as much as they do their own.

In the honor of such endeavors I will say as an atheist I understand that some of the reason that I don't believe in God (or at least God in the way others believe in God) is that my step mother who was abusive to me and my siblings tried to cram her religious beliefs down my throat. So to me at fairly early age, 'God' came to represent hypocrisy and even evil. She was also an extreme alcoholic. I don't know what it is called when you eat a bad piece of food and whether or not this item was what causes you to get sick but forever you get a bad reaction to for the rest of your life but this experience has caused me to have a similar problem with Christianity and more or less all Abrahamic religions.

I guess what I'm trying to say as an atheist my experiences could be far different than someone else (such as someone who knew a Christian who knew a good role model) and some of my beliefs could be caused by those perhaps biased experiences. If anyone has ever seen the movie Clockwork Orange and can remember Alex (the humble narrator/vicious petty criminal of the movie) and how his behaviors are completely different after he went through the state's experimental rehabilitation program, they might have a good idea of what I'm talking about.

I guess part of the reason I say this is to help some Christians reading this understand why nothing short of extreme brainwashing (since a kind of brainwashing is already responsible for what they believe) will get someone to become a Christian and aggressively trying to reach them will likely be counter productive if you try and reach them the wrong way; not that it is a given that there is even a right way to do it. Also it is an example of how a person that doesn't believe in God does it out of ignorance or selfishness. As far as I know, I almost know enough about certain Christian beliefs as some Christians who are not as perhaps active as they should be, and even though I'm likely more hedonistic than some Christians my vices have not completely consumed me or destroyed me; or at least not yet they haven't. Without a Christian moral compass to guide me I merely fashioned my own out of what seem to me reasonable (partly in order to have enough empathy toward others and partly for my own sanity) and as far as I know I'm as close to moral agent of 'good' as most Christians, or at least as close to being a moral agent of good as a person partial to nihilism can be.

I've also done enough mental gymnastics in order to not be bothered by some of the bigger questions ( like what happens after death, what is the purpose of one's life, etc., etc.) in order to not have to fret about it like I use to, and can sometimes even get the warm fuzzes when I read work by Christians who talk about 'God' as a kind of being that is different than other beings that exist.

I guess the problem I'm trying to get at (for those of who haven't gotten bored, fallen a sleep or gone somewhere else) is there seems to be a large gap between atheist (as well other people who sort of think like me) and most theist in understanding in how each other think. Atheist (as well as some agnostics) wish that more theist could understand them and theist wish more agnostics and atheists would take the time to let God into their life; or I guess something along those lines. However it is likely that NEITHER will get what they want because each underestimate how difficult it is for the other side to do what they want them to if they are unable and/or unwilling to put enough effort in it themselves. Also it is almost a given that it is unlikely to work if what one wants requires nothing short of brainwashing for reasons I explained earlier

Although it isn't a given, I think some of the stuff I learned in studying comparative religions as well as other things I learned could help fill this gap between atheism and theism and I'm interested in people on this forums thoughts on this matter and/or even if it is an endeavor worth pursuing. Part of this reason for this thread is that I tried to get another atheist (a member on this forum known as KTS) to sort of see things from the viewpoint of a theist (or at least the best I can understand how a theist thinks) and KTS probably thought my post were not that useful. Also this has been I subject I have tried to talk about on a few philosophy forum websites with mixed results, although some people thought such a subject better than the several of the other topics where theists and atheist endlessly debate and argue with each other.

 

[SkyWriting]

Several years ago when I was first interested in studying philosophy I took a Comparative Religions course at a local community college (couldn't afford to pay for a four year college) and liked quite a bit of what I learned from it. In layman's terms most of what the course was about trying to get people to try to understand other peoples culture and/or beliefs without letting their own biases get tin the way; and to get us to understand that our ways may not always be the right and/or only way or even the best way. While that sounds kind of simple in theory (since we are taught since kindergarten to understand and try to respect others) it can be difficult for teens and adults to respect other peoples beliefs and view of the world as much as they do their own.

In the honor of such endeavors I will say as an atheist I understand that some of the reason that I don't believe in God (or at least God in the way others believe in God) is that my step mother who was abusive to me and my siblings tried to cram her religious beliefs down my throat. So to me at fairly early age, 'God' came to represent hypocrisy and even evil. She was also an extreme alcoholic. I don't know what it is called when you eat a bad piece of food and whether or not this item was what causes you to get sick but forever you get a bad reaction to for the rest of your life but this experience has caused me to have a similar problem with Christianity and more or less all Abrahamic religions.

I guess what I'm trying to say as an atheist my experiences could be far different than someone else (such as someone who knew a Christian who knew a good role model) and some of my beliefs could be caused by those perhaps biased experiences. If anyone has ever seen the movie Clockwork Orange and can remember Alex (the humble narrator/vicious petty criminal of the movie) and how his behaviors are completely different after he went through the state's experimental rehabilitation program, they might have a good idea of what I'm talking about.

I guess part of the reason I say this is to help some Christians reading this understand why nothing short of extreme brainwashing (since a kind of brainwashing is already responsible for what they believe) will get someone to become a Christian and aggressively trying to reach them will likely be counter productive if you try and reach them the wrong way; not that it is a given that there is even a right way to do it. Also it is an example of how a person that doesn't believe in God does it out of ignorance or selfishness. As far as I know, I almost know enough about certain Christian beliefs as some Christians who are not as perhaps active as they should be, and even though I'm likely more hedonistic than some Christians my vices have not completely consumed me or destroyed me; or at least not yet they haven't. Without a Christian moral compass to guide me I merely fashioned my own out of what seem to me reasonable (partly in order to have enough empathy toward others and partly for my own sanity) and as far as I know I'm as close to moral agent of 'good' as most Christians, or at least as close to being a moral agent of good as a person partial to nihilism can be.

I've also done enough mental gymnastics in order to not be bothered by some of the bigger questions ( like what happens after death, what is the purpose of one's life, etc., etc.) in order to not have to fret about it like I use to, and can sometimes even get the warm fuzzes when I read work by Christians who talk about 'God' as a kind of being that is different than other beings that exist.

I guess the problem I'm trying to get at (for those of who haven't gotten bored, fallen a sleep or gone somewhere else) is there seems to be a large gap between atheist (as well other people who sort of think like me) and most theist in understanding in how each other think. Atheist (as well as some agnostics) wish that more theist could understand them and theist wish more agnostics and atheists would take the time to let God into their life; or I guess something along those lines. However it is likely that NEITHER will get what they want because each underestimate how difficult it is for the other side to do what they want them to if they are unable and/or unwilling to put enough effort in it themselves. Also it is almost a given that it is unlikely to work if what one wants requires nothing short of brainwashing for reasons I explained earlier

Although it isn't a given, I think some of the stuff I learned in studying comparative religions as well as other things I learned could help fill this gap between atheism and theism and I'm interested in people on this forums thoughts on this matter and/or even if it is an endeavor worth pursuing. Part of this reason for this thread is that I tried to get another atheist (a member on this forum known as KTS) to sort of see things from the viewpoint of a theist (or at least the best I can understand how a theist thinks) and KTS probably thought my post were not that useful. Also this has been I subject I have tried to talk about on a few philosophy forum websites with mixed results, although some people thought such a subject better than the several of the other topics where theists and atheist endlessly debate and argue with each other.

Focus on others for best results.

 

[South Bound]

I guess part of the reason I say this is to help some Christians reading this understand why nothing short of extreme brainwashing (since a kind of brainwashing is already responsible for what they believe) will get someone to become a Christian and aggressively trying to reach them will likely be counter productive if you try and reach them the wrong way; not that it is a given that there is even a righ

Several years ago when I was first interested in studying philosophy I took a Comparative Religions course at a local community college (couldn't afford to pay for a four year college) and liked quite a bit of what I learned from it. In layman's terms most of what the course was about trying to get people to try to understand other peoples culture and/or beliefs without letting their own biases get tin the way; and to get us to understand that our ways may not always be the right and/or only way or even the best way. While that sounds kind of simple in theory (since we are taught since kindergarten to understand and try to respect others) it can be difficult for teens and adults to respect other peoples beliefs and view of the world as much as they do their own.

In the honor of such endeavors I will say as an atheist I understand that some of the reason that I don't believe in God (or at least God in the way others believe in God) is that my step mother who was abusive to me and my siblings tried to cram her religious beliefs down my throat. So to me at fairly early age, 'God' came to represent hypocrisy and even evil. She was also an extreme alcoholic. I don't know what it is called when you eat a bad piece of food and whether or not this item was what causes you to get sick but forever you get a bad reaction to for the rest of your life but this experience has caused me to have a similar problem with Christianity and more or less all Abrahamic religions.

I guess what I'm trying to say as an atheist my experiences could be far different than someone else (such as someone who knew a Christian who knew a good role model) and some of my beliefs could be caused by those perhaps biased experiences. If anyone has ever seen the movie Clockwork Orange and can remember Alex (the humble narrator/vicious petty criminal of the movie) and how his behaviors are completely different after he went through the state's experimental rehabilitation program, they might have a good idea of what I'm talking about.

I guess part of the reason I say this is to help some Christians reading this understand why nothing short of extreme brainwashing (since a kind of brainwashing is already responsible for what they believe) will get someone to become a Christian and aggressively trying to reach them will likely be counter productive if you try and reach them the wrong way; not that it is a given that there is even a right way to do it. Also it is an example of how a person that doesn't believe in God does it out of ignorance or selfishness. As far as I know, I almost know enough about certain Christian beliefs as some Christians who are not as perhaps active as they should be, and even though I'm likely more hedonistic than some Christians my vices have not completely consumed me or destroyed me; or at least not yet they haven't. Without a Christian moral compass to guide me I merely fashioned my own out of what seem to me reasonable (partly in order to have enough empathy toward others and partly for my own sanity) and as far as I know I'm as close to moral agent of 'good' as most Christians, or at least as close to being a moral agent of good as a person partial to nihilism can be.

I've also done enough mental gymnastics in order to not be bothered by some of the bigger questions ( like what happens after death, what is the purpose of one's life, etc., etc.) in order to not have to fret about it like I use to, and can sometimes even get the warm fuzzes when I read work by Christians who talk about 'God' as a kind of being that is different than other beings that exist.

I guess the problem I'm trying to get at (for those of who haven't gotten bored, fallen a sleep or gone somewhere else) is there seems to be a large gap between atheist (as well other people who sort of think like me) and most theist in understanding in how each other think. Atheist (as well as some agnostics) wish that more theist could understand them and theist wish more agnostics and atheists would take the time to let God into their life; or I guess something along those lines. However it is likely that NEITHER will get what they want because each underestimate how difficult it is for the other side to do what they want them to if they are unable and/or unwilling to put enough effort in it themselves. Also it is almost a given that it is unlikely to work if what one wants requires nothing short of brainwashing for reasons I explained earlier

Although it isn't a given, I think some of the stuff I learned in studying comparative religions as well as other things I learned could help fill this gap between atheism and theism and I'm interested in people on this forums thoughts on this matter and/or even if it is an endeavor worth pursuing. Part of this reason for this thread is that I tried to get another atheist (a member on this forum known as KTS) to sort of see things from the viewpoint of a theist (or at least the best I can understand how a theist thinks) and KTS probably thought my post were not that useful. Also this has been I subject I have tried to talk about on a few philosophy forum websites with mixed results, although some people thought such a subject better than the several of the other topics where theists and atheist endlessly debate and argue with each other.

t way to do it. Also it is an example of how a person that doesn't believe in God does it out of ignorance or selfishness. As far as I know, I almost know enough about certain Christian beliefs as some Christians who are not as perhaps active as they should be, and even though I'm likely more hedonistic than some Christians my vices have not completely consumed me or destroyed me; or at least not yet they haven't. Without a Christian moral compass to guide me I merely fashioned my own out of what seem to me reasonable (partly in order to have enough empathy toward others and partly for my own sanity) and as far as I know I'm as close to moral agent of 'good' as most Christians, or at least as close to being a moral agent of good as a person partial to nihilism can be.

I've also done enough mental gymnastics in order to not be bothered by some of the bigger questions ( like what happens after death, what is the purpose of one's life, etc., etc.) in order to not have to fret about it like I use to, and can sometimes even get the warm fuzzes when I read work by Christians who talk about 'God' as a kind of being that is different than other beings that exist.

I guess the problem I'm trying to get at (for those of who haven't gotten bored, fallen a sleep or gone somewhere else) is there seems to be a large gap between atheist (as well other people who sort of think like me) and most theist in understanding in how each other think. Atheist (as well as some agnostics) wish that more theist could understand them and theist wish more agnostics and atheists would take the time to let God into their life; or I guess something along those lines. However it is likely that NEITHER will get what they want because each underestimate how difficult it is for the other side to do what they want them to if they are unable and/or unwilling to put enough effort in it themselves. Also it is almost a given that it is unlikely to work if what one wants requires nothing short of brainwashing for reasons I explained earlier

Although it isn't a given, I think some of the stuff I learned in studying comparative religions as well as other things I learned could help fill this gap between atheism and theism and I'm interested in people on this forums thoughts on this matter and/or even if it is an endeavor worth pursuing. Part of this reason for this thread is that I tried to get another atheist (a member on this forum known as KTS) to sort of see things from the viewpoint of a theist (or at least the best I can understand how a theist thinks) and KTS probably thought my post were not that useful. Also this has been I subject I have tried to talk about on a few philosophy forum websites with mixed results, although some people thought such a subject better than the several of the other topics where theists and atheist endlessly debate and argue with each other.

If your plane is crashing, gravity doesn't care how much you don't like parachutes.

 

[BubbaJack]

I understand where you are coming from. I was terrorized as a young child by the doctrine of eternal torment. It stayed with me for years and had the effect of making me seek relief through submitting to Christianity while simultaneously being repulsed by it (or at least the image of God I was presented).

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't know what it is called when you eat a bad piece of food and whether or not this item was what causes you to get sick but forever you get a bad reaction to for the rest of your life

Garchinski Effect or Conditioned Taste Aversion.

Christianity is a very diverse movement. Atheists and "nones" are going to be able to dialogue with some groups more than others. Most of the dialogue doesn't seem to be happening, as religion seems to become increasingly culturally irrelevant. Instead what I see is tribalism, people sticking to their own kind, combined with privatization of faith. This is symptomatic of a wider cultural problem.

Also it is almost a given that it is unlikely to work if what one wants requires nothing short of brainwashing for reasons I explained earlier

It doesn't necessarily involve brainwashing. Intelligent, psychologically healthy people are capable of seeing other peoples points of view, even if they don't agree with them.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I think the atheist / theist gap comes from brain dynamics, the faith re-wires routine brain activity, such that we only get a glimpse of each others psychological lives. Also different theists will have different interpretations of the basic theist "spiritual warmth" experience... I call this "spiritual spectral inversion".

 

[dclements]

Focus on others for best results.

What if that isn't good enough? While I believe that if one is willing to adhere to certain beliefs or doctrines such Jain's No One Sidedness, it will enable them to overcome some of the problems I'm mentioning. However even if I DO THIS it is not a given that my actions will help me explain how to deal with such problems to other people nor is it easy to focus on others as you might think it to be.

While I don't know if my biases still causes me too many problems while dealing with theist beliefs, I'm somewhat comfortable in the knowledge that I have made some effort in trying to get around such biases and focus on others enough to get the best results I can, even if that is just for myself.

 

[dclements]

If your plane is crashing, gravity doesn't care how much you don't like parachutes.

Could you slightly expand on that as there are too many ways for me to interpret it for me to make a reply that isn't filled with fallacies or having to make numerous replies for each of the potential meaning you could have be thinking while writing the post.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What if that isn't good enough? While I believe that if one is willing to adhere to certain beliefs or doctrines such Jain's No One Sidedness, it will enable them to overcome some of the problems I'm mentioning. However even if I DO THIS it is not a given that my actions will help me explain how to deal with such problems to other people nor is it easy to focus on others as you might think it to be.

While I don't know if my biases still causes me too many problems while dealing with theist beliefs, I'm somewhat comfortable in the knowledge that I have made some effort in trying to get around such biases and focus on others enough to get the best results I can, even if that is just for myself.

And, I for one appreciate your approach, dclements, even if we may not see eye to eye philosophically.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[South Bound]

Could you slightly expand on that as there are too many ways for me to interpret it for me to make a reply that isn't filled with fallacies or having to make numerous replies for each of the potential meaning you could have be thinking while writing the post.

It means that God isn't interested in your excuses

 

[dclements]

I understand where you are coming from. I was terrorized as a young child by the doctrine of eternal torment. It stayed with me for years and had the effect of making me seek relief through submitting to Christianity while simultaneously being repulsed by it (or at least the image of God I was presented).

So are you a Christian, or one of those who consider themselves spiritual but not religious. I'm just curious since your id doesn't really specify what you believe as far as I can tell.

 

[Albion]

I guess part of the reason I say this is to help some Christians reading this understand why nothing short of extreme brainwashing (since a kind of brainwashing is already responsible for what they believe) will get someone to become a Christian

Are you sure you want this to be your contention? While the experience you had is not unknown and certainly not to be dismissed, there are plenty of people who have come to Christ without that being part of their experience.

Without a Christian moral compass to guide me I merely fashioned my own out of what seem to me reasonable (partly in order to have enough empathy toward others and partly for my own sanity) and as far as I know I'm as close to moral agent of 'good' as most Christians, or at least as close to being a moral agent of good as a person partial to nihilism can be.

Could be. But OTOH, Christianity isn't fundamentally based upon the idea that we need to be nice, period.

It rests upon the idea that since none of us is as good as we ought to be, salvation is unattainable through our own efforts but rather that we are in need of, and have, a Savior.

 

[dclements]

Garchinski Effect or Conditioned Taste Aversion.

I was confused by what you meant by this until I remembered that part of my post about eating something bad that can make a person adverse to it later. I'll try to remember to Google and make note of it as soon as I get a chance. And Thanks

Christianity is a very diverse movement. Atheists and "nones" are going to be able to dialogue with some groups more than others. Most of the dialogue doesn't seem to be happening, as religion seems to become increasingly culturally irrelevant. Instead what I see is tribalism, people sticking to their own kind, combined with privatization of faith. This is symptomatic of a wider cultural problem.

Maybe but it seems to me that there are some atheists who are just as stubborn as theist. However I think you come close to the mark on the problem of tribal mentality or 'us'/'them' mindset. I think there was a episode on 60 minutes about us being partly hardwired at birth to think this way.

It doesn't necessarily involve brainwashing. Intelligent, psychologically healthy people are capable of seeing other peoples points of view, even if they don't agree with them.

For some people 'brainwashing' brings up horrible images in their mind but to me it almost means the same thing as hard wiring that goes on even if we don't think about it; or at lest it means that to me when used in a certain context.

I may be wrong, but from what I can remember in psych 101, the human mind must grapple with a world that is more complex than we can handle and in order to deal with some of this complexity we use 'rule of thumb' actions (sort of like how a tech uses basic rules to fix a machine they have worked on before before actually resorting to troubleshooting it the problem) or simple unconscious hard wired rules that we may not even think about such as moral axioms. With out such measures we could fry our brain from too much stress and anxiety if we didn't use such measures to make our lives more simple; or at least that is how I think it works.

 

[jacks]

I guess what I'm trying to say as an atheist my experiences could be far different than someone else (such as someone who knew a Christian who knew a good role model) and some of my beliefs could be caused by those perhaps biased experiences.

Yes, it sounds like you had an unfortunate experience. I was also an atheist, because I was raised to be one. We weren't militant atheists, we just felt sorry for religious people because we saw them as deluded. Opiate of the masses idea. Further that science was the ultimate window into true reality.

Once I was away from that environment, it didn't take long for me figure out something major was lacking in my belief system and many things were left unexplained. I also took comparative religion classes and studied many diverse theological teachings. You are right any fire and brimstone arguments, did nothing to convince me and in fact I was driven away from Christianity for quite awhile because of them.

To make a long story short, it was the actions of people (not what they said) and a continual study of Christianity that finally led to my giving it a chance. Then direct experiences, brought me to becoming a Christian.

Keep seeking and you will find, no matter what point you are starting from.

 

[dclements]

It means that God isn't interested in your excuses

But if I bow down to a being just because he is powerful, doesn't it make me even worse that those who choose to stick to their beliefs even though other people told them it might be against God's will?

I may be wrong but I believe that in order for me or anyone else to be one of the faithful, I must first put away some of the consequences that may happen to me and do what is right; regardless of what doing what is right may bring. Someone who bows before God due to what they fear God will do to them would also bow down before any demon or petty tyrant if such being tried to control them.

If it is God decision to punish me for whatever I believe or done than I imagine I'm more or less in the same boat as everyone else in that if I'm a cancer instead of a health cell than I accept that being extinguished may be for a greater good; even if my efforts to be good where done to the best of my ability. While such ideas may be a bit a contradiction to what some of us think of as an all loving and all knowing God, at least it might allow for there to be a way for good to exist. However it such situations it might become tricky to explain what is 'good' if choose to say 'good' is merely what an all powerful being chooses it to be whether or not there is really any rhyme or reason to it. Perhaps if such a universe did exist it might not be that different that what the Gnostic (as well as some Dharmic) believe and that it is better to be released from this world and move on to the next. Of course that is if this world is merely an evil one and being released from it is the best that one can hope for. For me it is merely something I have very little knowledge or control of so fretting over it won't help much; but I think this is true of any person that tries to be moral agent and understands what they are really up against.

 

[South Bound]

But if I bow down to a being just because he is powerful, doesn't it make me even worse that those who choose to stick to their beliefs even though other people told them it might be against God's will?

I may be wrong but I believe that in order for me or anyone else to be one of the faithful, I must first put away some of the consequences that may happen to me and do what is right; regardless of what doing what is right may bring. Someone who bows before God due to what they fear God will do to them would also bow down before any demon or petty tyrant if such being tried to control them.

If it is God decision to punish me for whatever I believe or done than I imagine I'm more or less in the same boat as everyone else in that if I'm a cancer instead of a health cell than I accept that being extinguished may be for a greater good; even if my efforts to be good where done to the best of my ability. While such ideas may be a bit a contradiction to what some of us think of as an all loving and all knowing God, at least it might allow for there to be a way for good to exist. However it such situations it might become tricky to explain what is 'good' if choose to say 'good' is merely what an all powerful being chooses it to be whether or not there is really any rhyme or reason to it. Perhaps if such a universe did exist it might not be that different that what the Gnostic (as well as some Dharmic) believe and that it is better to be released from this world and move on to the next. Of course that is if this world is merely an evil one and being released from it is the best that one can hope for. For me it is merely something I have very little knowledge or control of so fretting over it won't help much; but I think this is true of any person that tries to be moral agent and understands what they are really up against.

Like I said God isn't interested in your excuses

 

[dclements]

Are you sure you want this to be your contention? While the experience you had is not unknown and certainly not to be dismissed, there are plenty of people who have come to Christ without that being part of their experience.

It is more than just that experience, but i should kind of leave it at that so that I just don't go on about stuff that may not be important.

Could be. But OTOH, Christianity isn't fundamentally based upon the idea that we need to be nice, period.

Maybe but I don't think it is about asking for God for forgiveness and then using other people however you see fit. As I mention to another forum member, if morality is merely arbitrary in the eyes of God then there is little we can do about it.

It rests upon the idea that since none of us is as good as we ought to be, salvation is unattainable through our own efforts but rather that we are in need of, and have, a Savior.

That is kind of a difficult one since I'm not sure what salvation is and because I might be on the other side of the elephant from where you are standing, I'm not sure if I want to agree or disagree since the process of salvation could be different than what some (or perhaps most) of us expect. For me if I somehow manage to do what I need to get done in this world before I go to wherever we go after we leave here, then that would be good enough for me. I'm sure there is a possibility of me to change my position as I get older, but I'm 'ok' with that position for now.

 

[dclements]

Like I said God isn't interested in your excuses

Fair enough for me.

 

[SkyWriting]

nor is it easy to focus on others as you might think it to be.

I am only saying that this is what you need to do
for success given what's you've said so far.

 

[Albion]

Maybe but I don't think it is about asking for God for forgiveness and then using other people however you see fit.

Oh, certainly not. I didn't get that slant from your earlier post.