Comparative Religions

[FireDragon76]

But if I bow down to a being just because he is powerful, doesn't it make me even worse that those who choose to stick to their beliefs even though other people told them it might be against God's will?

Like Albion said, deserving has nothing to do with it. Good, bad, it's simply not relevant spiritually. God causes the rain to fall on the just and unjust. The realm of grace and salvation has nothing to do with justice in the human sense.

I may be wrong but I believe that in order for me or anyone else to be one of the faithful, I must first put away some of the consequences that may happen to me and do what is right;

As the Proverbs say, there is a way that seems good to man, and it leads to death.

In the Lutheran tradition, we believe, teach, and confess that faith is a supernatural gift that is unearned. It is not a result of our intelligence or strength of our will. It is not based on our willingness to do good. So no, you don't have to have a willingness to do what is right. The idea that salvation is something that is merited, earned, or deserved through a life of good deeds is not Christian. You may have been raised with that idea, as it is a popular sentiment in American folk Christianity, but it is not a classically Protestant or even Roman Catholic notion.

The good works that Christians should do is a result of being shown grace and mercy from God. But our acceptance by God is not dependent on how moral we manage to be. Especially in the Lutheran tradition, this distinction is critical. It's about a life based on appreciation and gratitude vs. some kind of calculating moralism. There is no grace or forgiveness in moralism. And my guess is that moralism is your big hangup regarding Christianity. You haven't managed to forgive your mom for being a hypocrite.

 

[BubbaJack]

So are you a Christian, or one of those who consider themselves spiritual but not religious. I'm just curious since your id doesn't really specify what you believe as far as I can tell.

edit: neither.

 

[Sketcher]

In the honor of such endeavors I will say as an atheist I understand that some of the reason that I don't believe in God (or at least God in the way others believe in God) is that my step mother who was abusive to me and my siblings tried to cram her religious beliefs down my throat. So to me at fairly early age, 'God' came to represent hypocrisy and even evil. She was also an extreme alcoholic. I don't know what it is called when you eat a bad piece of food and whether or not this item was what causes you to get sick but forever you get a bad reaction to for the rest of your life but this experience has caused me to have a similar problem with Christianity and more or less all Abrahamic religions.

I guess what I'm trying to say as an atheist my experiences could be far different than someone else (such as someone who knew a Christian who knew a good role model) and some of my beliefs could be caused by those perhaps biased experiences. If anyone has ever seen the movie Clockwork Orange and can remember Alex (the humble narrator/vicious petty criminal of the movie) and how his behaviors are completely different after he went through the state's experimental rehabilitation program, they might have a good idea of what I'm talking about.

I guess part of the reason I say this is to help some Christians reading this understand why nothing short of extreme brainwashing (since a kind of brainwashing is already responsible for what they believe) will get someone to become a Christian and aggressively trying to reach them will likely be counter productive if you try and reach them the wrong way; not that it is a given that there is even a right way to do it. Also it is an example of how a person that doesn't believe in God does it out of ignorance or selfishness.

Sorry to hear about your stepmother, no child should be abused. That said, from what I'm seeing here, it seems that you are rejecting Christianity because of your experience with her, rather than anything Christianity teaches. And I'm sure you know that what she said and did in no way invalidates anything that Christianity does teach - a bad person who claims Christianity (or one of a number of other faiths) does not invalidate said faith. Was that experience growing up really so intense as to keep you from believing even if Christianity could be reasonably shown to be true?

 

[BubbaJack]

S

Especially if you believe the Resurrection occurred?

wut?

 

[Sketcher]

wut?

Edited, sorry. I confused you with OP, I was glancing and not looking carefully.

 

[dclements]

I am only saying that this is what you need to do
for success given what's you've said so far.

Maybe, but if I'm one of many that it might be necessary for me to try and get other people to be mindful as well which is at least as difficult as being mindful myself. I guess doing either one of these works up to a certain point and then becomes too much for one person, but I guess the point is to do the best that one can do.

 

[dclements]

Oh, certainly not. I didn't get that slant from your earlier post.

It was actually more about the your point about believing in God while not necessarily bothering to be nice to other people. I may be wrong but I believe there is a problem if someone that believes in God uses other people as mere tools instead of treating them like people. While this may not be what you mean when you say that people don't have to be 'nice', I'm not sure what you mean other than they don't have to be moral agents if they at least believe in God. A person who isn't the best at being a moral agent can still be considered a moral agent even if they are not 'nice' all the time if they are willing to do the right thing because their conscience tells them it is what they 'ought' to do but a sociopath who is unable to have any empathy may be a danger to the rest of society (just as a cancer cell is a danger to other healthy cells) even if this person happens to believe in God.

I guess what I'm saying is that being a moral agent ought to have just as much importance as whether one believes in God because God may be able to forgive a sociopath in the next life, but in this one we can not let them be part of society without risking harm to others. I hope you understand what I mean on this.

Also with any sort of morality besides believing in God and/or being a Christian there is a risk of morality becoming a bit arbitrary. For example in the middle east there people that believe in God and are willing to kill others who also believe in God but not the way they do. For me it is not a problem with believing in God but not bothering to have enough empathy or respect for other human being that they do this; and or they are too interested in getting have power to bother with such things. Without any sort of morality people can sort of lose their compass as to what it is they ought to do, so for me morality is necessary if nothing else than one's own sanity and safety.

If you see things differently than please explain...

 

[Albion]

It was actually more about the your point about believing in God while not necessarily bothering to be nice to other people. I may be wrong but I believe there is a problem if someone that believes in God uses other people as mere tools instead of treating them like people. While this may not be what you mean when you say that people don't have to be 'nice', I'm not sure what you mean other than they don't have to be moral agents if they at least believe in God.

Well, I didn't say anything like and certainly didn't mean what you've suggested here. Just the opposite. This is what I wrote:

Christianity isn't fundamentally based upon the idea that we need to be nice, period.

Your comments continue with the following--

I guess what I'm saying is that being a moral agent ought to have just as much importance as whether one believes in God

That isn't what our religion believes, however, nor what God has told us through his word, the Bible. Of course, a believer should be kind and generous, but nowhere are we told that this is the essence of the faith. That's to put the cart (a good or ethical lifestyle) ahead of the reason for living that way (Christ).

Also with any sort of morality besides believing in God and/or being a Christian there is a risk of morality becoming a bit arbitrary. For example in the middle east there people that believe in God and are willing to kill others who also believe in God but not the way they do. For me it is not a problem with believing in God but not bothering to have enough empathy or respect for other human being that they do this; and or they are too interested in getting have power to bother with such things. Without any sort of morality people can sort of lose their compass as to what it is they ought to do, so for me morality is necessary if nothing else than one's own sanity and safety.

If you see things differently than please explain...

This sounds to me like you're explaining the shortcomings of religion and believers--of any religion. However, we ought not to put all theists into the same category now when we had been focused on the nature of Christianity instead.

 

[dclements]

Like Albion said, deserving has nothing to do with it. Good, bad, it's simply not relevant spiritually. God causes the rain to fall on the just and unjust. The realm of grace and salvation has nothing to do with justice in the human sense.

God may be mysterious in some ways, but if God is completely unknowable and/or arbitrary in what he does it could create a certain kind of madness and make it difficult for people to actually call him 'God' if there really is no rhyme or reason to what he does.

For example, in Gnostic teachings (and schism of Christianity) there are two God like beings where as one (who is more like the devil than anything else) who created our world and another (who supposedly is the real God) and she exist in a spiritual realm separate from the reality we know. I'm sure this is all heresy to normal Christian doctrine, but if for some reason a person is approach by both agents of God and the devil how would they resolve which beliefs to follow without resorting to some sort of metric and/or morality to speak of? Is someone supposed to just take out a coin and flip it (or the equivalent of that) in such circumstances if morality isn't important or is it all predecided and whatever choice they make was already a given so it isn't even relevant as to the choice they make?

As the Proverbs say, there is a way that seems good to man, and it leads to death.

In the Lutheran tradition, we believe, teach, and confess that faith is a supernatural gift that is unearned. It is not a result of our intelligence or strength of our will. It is not based on our willingness to do good. So no, you don't have to have a willingness to do what is right. The idea that salvation is something that is merited, earned, or deserved through a life of good deeds is not Christian. You may have been raised with that idea, as it is a popular sentiment in American folk Christianity, but it is not a classically Protestant or even Roman Catholic notion.

The good works that Christians should do is a result of being shown grace and mercy from God. But our acceptance by God is not dependent on how moral we manage to be. Especially in the Lutheran tradition, this distinction is critical. It's about a life based on appreciation and gratitude vs. some kind of calculating moralism. There is no grace or forgiveness in moralism. And my guess is that moralism is your big hangup regarding Christianity. You haven't managed to forgive your mom for being a hypocrite.

There are some things you can forgive and some that it really isn't possible. I don't think that many Christians can forgive a person that abused their kids the way she abused me and my siblings so I think it is fair that you not judge me before actually knowing what really happened..and with that I really don't want to speak any more of such matters.

I can believe in believing in something higher than oneself, dedicating oneself to a cause(whether it be about god or something else), and I can believe in some sort of collective conscience but a God that is followed for completely non-rational escapes me. If one should be careful of falling prey to demonic forces, what means should they resist such agents of evil then some kind of morality? Maybe it is all going to happen that way it is supposed to happen regardless of what we think or believe, but that would kind of throw 'free will' out the window and negate such things as an argument as to why God even allows 'evil' in our world if we don't even have enough free will to make 'wrong' decisions. In such a world there really would be no up/down good/evil to speak of as far as I can tell.

 

[Albion]

God may be mysterious in some ways, but if God is completely unknowable and/or arbitrary in what he does it could create a certain kind of madness and make it difficult for people to actually call him 'God' if there really is no rhyme or reason to what he does.

Frankly, there's not much danger of that happening with Christianity.

It is based upon an easily understood sequence of events producing certain consequences...and the solution to them that was offered by God. The "reasons why" are well described in the Bible which itself is a remarkable account of the fall and redemption of a people over a long period of time.

I can believe in believing in something higher than oneself, dedicating oneself to a cause(whether it be about god or something else), and I can believe in some sort of collective conscience but a God that is followed for completely non-rational escapes me.

I'm pretty sure the rest of us would find that to be as much a
"non-starter" as you do.

 

[dclements]

Well, I didn't say anything like and certainly didn't mean what you've suggested here. Just the opposite. This is what I wrote:

Your comments continue with the following--

That isn't what our religion believes, however, nor what God has told us through his word, the Bible. Of course, a believer should be kind and generous, but nowhere are we told that this is the essence of the faith. That's to put the cart (a good or ethical lifestyle) ahead of the reason for living that way (Christ).

This sounds to me like you're explaining the shortcomings of religion and believers--of any religion. However, we ought not to put all theists into the same category now when we had been focused on the nature of Christianity instead.

I may be still misreading this, but being a moral agent is part of being a Christian but faith itself is something that is often even more required of a person than being a moral agent. Also you seem to be saying that a person that has enough faith but is not the best moral agent would likely have a better chance at find God, than a person who is better at being an agent of morality but has some trouble in having faith.

I can kind of accept that as it is the kind of Christian doctrine I have heard as a kid, but I have also occasional come across those that say that if one either tries enough to be 'good' or tries hard enough to find faith and God the other is likely to become part of their path as well. Obviously as an atheist I'm kind of fond of the latter belief than the former, but I willing to accept that for others that faith may have to take a more important role than morality itself.

 

[Albion]

I may be still misreading this, but being a moral agent is part of being a Christian but faith itself is something that is often even more required of a person than being a moral agent.

In Christianity, the two are not so separable from each other as you seem to want to think.

Also you seem to be saying that a person that has enough faith but is not the best moral agent would likely have a better chance at find God

According to what you have written, that person already has found God.

I can kind of accept that as it is the kind of Christian doctrine I have heard as a kid, but I have also occasional come across those that say that if one either tries enough to be 'good' or tries hard enough to find faith and God the other is likely to become part of their path as well.

I think that what you've read is only that some people have been known to become receptive to the Christian religion though admiring the moral lifestyle they see in Christians whom they know and have observed. I wouldn't theologize overly much about that; we all tend to gain a better image of whatever cause it may be if its followers are seen to be admirable people.

Obviously as an atheist I'm kind of fond of the latter belief than the former, but I willing to accept that for others that faith may have to take a more important role than morality itself.

Again, I think you're generalizing about people who are religious. What you've written here would never pass muster with anyone who's really versed in the meaning of the (Christian) Gospel.

 

[SkyWriting]

Maybe, but if I'm one of many that it might be necessary for me to try and get other people to be mindful as well which is at least as difficult as being mindful myself. I guess doing either one of these works up to a certain point and then becomes too much for one person, but I guess the point is to do the best that one can do.

You can give your life for others. I'm not sure how much more you'd like to give.