Communion Question

[filosofer]

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Still too many unknowns in the circumstances presented in OP. And there are some implications beyond the individual that have not been considered.

In Christ's love,
filo
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[DaRev]

I'm not sure where it comes from but it is becomming "status quo" in a very large amounts of LCMS churches. I've visitied many in my travels and they all advocate corporate hierarchy where the pastor is basicaly the CEO, the elders as "yes men" and the laity who don't have voting priviledges. If anybody thinks I'm kidding then just see is your church constitution has changed in the past few years.

I know Jeusu First has advocated it for years but I'm not sure if it's part of PLI or Ablaze.

What you have described is PLI, not Ablaze.

And I am a fan of neither.

 

[porterross]

In the same light, at what point do you see a pastor err and do something about it?

It is wrong not to listen and only assume.

The information you've provided here does not seem to be pastoral error. Unless you know the pastor's perspective and reasons (if he'd even share them with you) beyond those required of everyone else, I don't know how you can insist he's being unfair.

It's not as though the pastor refused his membership after receiving pastoral instruction. That would bring up a few questions, but I don't see any reason for concern here based on what you've offered.

You indicated that you and your family have given him enough information to be considered catechized. Don't you think that maybe you're taking the situation a bit too personally? Isn't this matter between your pastor and the individual in question?

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

I'm confused now.. are you saying that Ablaze! is advocating that pastors give up their call to Sacrament and Word? I've read some of the Ablaze! stuff and went to last summer's district conference on it. I don't agree with all of it, but I didn't notice pastors being told to just be CEOs. That's what it sounds like you're suggesting. Or are you talking about the Ablaze! focus on personal evangelizing, thus telling the laity to preach the Word?

Can you clarify for me? I'm still new to this whole thing, and trying to understand. I know my Pastor doesn't like Ablaze! because he thinks it focuses on "decision theology". But if there's something more I'd like to know.

THis is the link to the PLI site. It has some innocuous eplanations about what it's aims are and what the program is. But in my personal experience I have seen first hand what it is doing to the church. As I've said I know that it is taking on momentum in LCMS and there are hundreds of churches ascribing to this program and it is grwoing everyday. I don't see any of what I mentioned as far as the hierarch but it definitely is part of the program. The pastor is chief officer and the elders are "yes" men and the congregation is only notified once a year about precedures and policy and has no vote on the consequences. THe whole church constitution is changed. Totally unscriptural becasue the keys are given to the congregation and passsed to the pastor through a call and then he is only responsible for preaching and the sacraments. The congregation and elders responsible for governing. Too many pastors want to be CEO and love this program because of the power it gives them. More on the order of the RC and it's even worse because they are the only head of their own hierarchy and there isn't anybody above them. Not even synod. That is dangerous.

Most of these churches succumb to Ablaze after the new constitution is in effect because the pastor is the only one making the decision.

http://www.plinstitute.org/

 

[DaRev]

THis is the link to the PLI site. It has some innocuous eplanations about what it's aims are and what the program is. But in my personal experience I have seen first hand what it is doing to the church. As I've said I know that it is taking on momentum in LCMS and there are hundreds of churches ascribing to this program and it is grwoing everyday. I don't see any of what I mentioned as far as the hierarch but it definitely is part of the program. The pastor is chief officer and the elders are "yes" men and the congregation is only notified once a year about precedures and policy and has no vote on the consequences. THe whole church constitution is changed. Totally unscriptural becasue the keys are given to the congregation and passsed to the pastor through a call and then he is only responsible for preaching and the sacraments. The congregation and elders responsible for governing. Too many pastors want to be CEO and love this program because of the power it gives them. More on the order of the RC and it's even worse because they are the only head of their own hierarchy and there isn't anybody above them. Not even synod. That is dangerous.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Radidio again.

Concerning PLI, I agree with you 100%.

But there is a little more involved in the role and responsibility of the pastor than simply preaching and administering the Sacraments.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

Still too many unknowns in the circumstances presented in OP. And there are some implications beyond the individual that have not been considered.

In Christ's love,
filo

Could you explain please filo. I'd be interesting in hearing what you have to say.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

PLI to Receive Accreditation


Dr. Norbert Oesch, PLI's staff executive states that those who wish to pursue a Doctor of Ministry degree, Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, is preparing to give 27 credit units of the 54 required for that degree. It will have academic and practical excellence.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

sorry

 

[filosofer]

Could you explain please filo. I'd be interesting in hearing what you have to say.

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Cosmic stated well some of the wider implications.

The key is that discipleship has been reduced to a class or even a statement of faith. Part of the development as disciples is an ongoing relationship with the other disciples and consistency in worship, Bible study, service, use of spiritual gifts.

In Christ's love,
filo
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[filosofer]

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Well, nuts! Cosmic has such an excellent response, and I tried to quote, and now it is gone.

Oh well, read his mind to get the gist of it ... :

In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

This is starting to look like a peacock farm with all the struttin to boot.

I am still not sure if this young man is in adult confirmation or in a regular confirmation class. That is why I removed what I had posted.

We still do not know his age.

We still do not know who even teaches the class.

I think someone is trying to raise a bias against the pastor on limited information. Haven't we seen this before?

But if your position is going to be "the pastor just can't do that because he's the pastor".......you really need to hear what you are saying.

Before you make the Lord's Supper some SuperNova fest, the Festival of All Knowledge, read Luther's Communion sermon from 1525. I no longer have the link. But in it, he shares that our Lord also consumes us. We are being eating and swallowed up in this one Bread. There is no room for "me before you" which is so much the business of the church these days.

Next time you approach the table, bring some humility and pray "more of You - less of me". When you walk away, walk away from your self promotions and you may just find that all the things that bother you so much before are GONE. If they still bother you, get back in line!

Waiting for Sunday,
Cosmic

 

[synger]

Before you make the Lord's Supper some SuperNova fest, the Festival of All Knowledge, read Luther's Communion sermon from 1525. I no longer have the link. But in it, he shares that our Lord also consumes us. We are being eating and swallowed up in this one Bread. There is no room for "me before you" which is so much the business of the church these days.

Next time you approach the table, bring some humility and pray "more of You - less of me". When you walk away, walk away from your self promotions and you may just find that all the things that bother you so much before are GONE. If they still bother you, get back in line!

Waiting for Sunday,
Cosmic

I found a Luther sermon on communion, but it didn't speak of us being eaten and swallowed up. It did make me think long and hard about how I approach the table, though.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

I am not against the learning. I am against the disrespectful attitude of a pastor who rejects hearing a man's confession of faith.

I am also against the idea that confirmation completion = the Lord's Supper. That is not the practice of the LCMS officially, rather it is a common practice that congregations feel comfortable with.

Confess,

I hope you are also teaching him some humility in all of this. Even our Lord attended instruction. He did not Lord it over his teacher or class. He took His examinations and did not stamp them "exempt - I am God".

I think the greater harm can be that you are making your relative someone "special" because he can recite the catechism. Maybe this is the reason the pastor refuses to hear his confession. He knows you will then "demand" immdiate rites to the Lord's Supper. This may be what he is trying to prevent.

If you are venting in the presence of this young man about his pastor, please realize what you may be doing to him in the long run.

Confirmation should not be equated as "graduation". Yet, this is sadly the case. Early graduation does not help with that either. It would raise questions and even possible resentment towards this young man. Is this what is in his best interest?

God places authorities over us according to the 4th Commandment for our good. He does not require that we agree with them but above all, respect that it is God who has placed them over us. For now, God has placed this pastor over you for your good.

Peace,
Cosmic

 

[DaRev]

There have been a few congregations in the Synod that have gone to an early communion prior to confirmation. At our last circuit meeting I was asked to present a paper on this matter. I never really agreed with communion before confirmation because it tends to contradict our close communion practice.
The main teaching regarding reception of the Sacrament is the personal relationship with God and belief in the Real Presence and the words "given and shed for you." But there is also the fellowship issue that is mandated by Scripture in 1 Corinthains 10 which requires a common confession of faith. Even though someone may believe in the Real Presence and the words of the Lord, they may also be coming to the Table with false teachings or misunderstandings. Unless one is instructed in the Confessions of the Church, they cannot come to the Table in the fellowship of the altar, which is why first communion should be after confirmation.

The problem is that in many cases the Sacrament is held up as a carrot dangled in front of the confirmands to encourage them to continue to confirmation. The argument against early communion is that catechumens no longer have reason to continue to confirmation (in their minds, anyway). My preference would be to have confirmation earlier, say on Reformation Day, and then reserve First Communion for the Spring (around Easter/Holy Week), using that time in between to concentrate on the teachings and the importance of the Sacrament.

 

[walloffire]

Ok.
This is the scenario:

You have a young man who is not a member of any Lutheran denomination, but has been going to a Lutheran church for the past 9 years.

He has the 10 commandments memorized, their meanings.
He has the Lord's Prayer memorized and it's meaning.
He has the Creed, Lord's Supper, Absolution, and Baptism memorized and their meanings.

Not many people are like this young man who has memorized their Catechism like this.

Now, he desires the Lord's Supper and his pastor says that he cannot do so until he finishes one more year of classes as all new members must do. He already has completed 4 months of classes. The pastor also says that wrote memorization does not mean that you have understanding. In my opinion, this young man appears to understand more then many pastors I have met.

Is the pastor right is doing this?

I guess the pastor would have to ask themself this question
Who would Jesus turn away?

Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Its amazing how many people call themselves Christians yet turn away people. It is a sin, because it is not merciful.

 

[RadMan]

People take communion to there damnation when they don't know what the bible says. I wouldn't want to be a part of that.

 

[mrshoperose]

Why is walloffire resurrecting old ghosts?

 

[porterross]

 

[mrshoperose]

OK, but what does it mean to be a troll?

 

[porterross]

Wikipedia definition of a TROLL .