Common ground

[SeraphimSarov]

From reading through these threads, one might get the idea that Protestants and EO/CC can't agree on anything concerning this topic (most specifically the Blessed Virgin). Surely this cannot be the case.

Let's try to keep debate to a minimum on this thread, eh? List off things that we can agree to.

(This may not fly what with the Nicene Creed being thrown by the wayside as a definition of orthodox Christianity, but whatever... let's see what happens.)

 

[IamAdopted]

I do agree with the fact that Mary was the mother of Jesus. I also agree that She was a virgin until after Jesus was born.

 

[kepha31]

Great idea. Lets start with the reformers.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin." Martin Luther, op. cit., Volume 11, 319-320.

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..." Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St.Louis], Volume 4, 694.


"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart." Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works (Translation by William J. Cole) 10, III, p.313.


"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis], Volume 51, 128-129.


Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".


"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 35.


"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
Bernard Leeming, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies, January 1967, p.9.


"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 424.

Ulrich Zwingli : "I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary." E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.
http://www.mariology.com/sections/reformers.html

 

[kepha31]

Paradoxically, some of the most important expositions of Marian doctrine in this century have come to us from Protestant scholars from a variety of denominations. Mary does not belong to any church or denomination. She is the mother of those who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ". Here we will present some brief statements on Mary from various Protestant and Anglican thinkers:

Eric Mascall [Anglican]:
The relation of Mary to the Church is (as the modern logicians would say) the relative product of two more fundamental relations. The first of these is Mary's relation to her Son; he is still man and she is still his mother. The second is his relation to us and to the Church; we are his members and the Church is his body. Therefore Mary is our mother and we are her children by adoption into her Son. This is not an exuberance of devotion but a fact of theology.

http://www.allsaintssanfran.org/Virgin%20Mary/Protestants_on_Mary.htm

John Macquarrie [Anglican]:
A genuinely personal and biblical view [sees each human being] as made in the image of God and destined for God, a being still capable of responding to God and of serving God in the work of building up the creation. This hopeful view of the human race is personified and enshrined in Mary.

John De Satge [Evangelical]:
I believe that just as we may see in the theological life of the Virgin Mary, as the Scriptures describe her, a model of justification by faith so we may view the beginning and the end of her story which later traditions, held in different ways by Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic have added on to the scriptural deposit, not a distortion from it, but as congruent with it and so as legitimate extensions.

Neville Ward [Methodist]:
It does seem clear that the first-century people who put together the four gospels found that they could not do justice to the mixture of the divine and human in Jesus without saying some very remarkable things about his mother. Their minds were continually drawn to her. Because they felt that to Jesus was given the name that is above every other name, these early Christians sensed an extraordinary mystery about her. They knew as well as we do that the influence of a mother over a child is absolutely incalculable for good or ill. If Jesus was who they thought he was, then who was she?
The earliest Christian communities did not stay long in this realm of question and mystery. Very soon they found themselves surrounding Mary's memory and her presence in the communion of saints with a unique love and thankfulness. Nowadays the birth and infancy narratives, dated in the first century by scholars, are seen as a kind of paean of praise to God and to Mary for Jesus. Since then there has poured through the life of the Christian church an amazing flood of gratitude and love for her whose existence was the slender thread on which, for believers, hangs so much of life's joy and meaning.

Donald Dawe [Presbyterian]:
The place of Mary must be understood not only in the unfolding dialogue of the Church with traditions, confessions and dogmatics but in relation to the unfolding of piety with its affective and actional affirmations of faith.
In the joyful celebration of what God has done through the Virgin Mary, we come back into contact with affective dimensions of faith that have been blunted by modernity. Mary in her femininity expresses those dimensions of faith that have been lost in a male dominated piety. Mary as the Mother opens the emotionally profound realm of family life and home to divine renewal by being the faithful mother. Mary in the communion of saints points all saints to that obedience that is the true measure of faith with her words, 'Do whatever he tells you' (John 2:5). Mary in all these aspects is not the substitute for Christ, she is the bearer of Christ in this time, just as she was in first century Palestine. Mary is a continuing witness to the mystery of that intertwining of divine initiative and human response out of which redemption is formed. When this mystery is no longer contemplated, where her openness to God does not nourish and enlarge our openness to God, faith in her Son wanes. Mary in her virginity is not simply the protection of the confession vere Deus vere homo as an intellectual formula but as an affective reality for faith. She is the eternal Bearer of Christ.
In the Virgin Mary, we hear the needed word of truth. God has taken the initiative for human salvation. It is not our doing but his gift. Yet it is a gift that has entered our time and place. Mary Virgin is the continuing witness to the divine initiative while Mary Mother makes of this divine initiative a flesh and blood fact in our lives. Mary is God's 'No' to the secular religion of human apotheosis. She received by the Holy Spirit the gift of the salvation that no human power could create. As such she is the living expression of sola gratia. She is the prototype of every believer. Her, 'Yes' to God's call is the opening of the way to salvation. So we join in saying, 'Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb.' But this is not a fact sealed off in the first century. She still stands before us, through the witness of Scripture, in the power of the Spirit as the Mother who bears and protects her Son. Just as in her womb, and in her home she bore and protected her Son from the forces of a despising society and a murderous king, she now bears and protects the mystery of his being in our midst. Without her the redemptive mystery of her Son is lost. With her it is received with joy.

Charles Dickson [Lutheran]:
Luther referred to Mary as "God's workshop" and went on to say, "As the Mother of God, she is raised above the whole of humankind" and "has no equal". Contrast this with the modern Protestant attitude that criticizes Marian devotion in the belief that it detracts from the central and unique place Christ occupies in human salvation and you begin to get a picture of the current crisis of division.

What Protestants have had difficulty understanding are the intentions of Catholic teachings about Mary. In the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption teachings it has not been the intention of the Catholic Church to elevate the Blessed Virgin Mary to deity status but rather to show her as the shining model of genuinely Christian hope. It is the hope for all humankind. Such a rereading and enlightened understanding on the part of the Protestant community will help to refocus the attention of the entire Christian world on Mary, not as a point of division, but as the real bridge to unity for us all.

 

[IamAdopted]

Matt. 28:29 - I am with you "until the end of the world."
If we apply IamAdopted's method of interpreting "heos", Jesus would be saying, "I am with you (heos) until, but not after, the end of the world." Most people can see that this is, of course, a falsehood.

Tee hee. Jesus is with us until the end of the world. After that we will be with Him. Forever. Just as Jesus was with those whom have passed on until they passed on. Now they are with Him.

Does not take a genius to understand this but only an open heart and mind.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

..

 

[Uphill Battle]

I am not sure it can work, KjellBjarne. I mean, contributing to a list we can all agree to. Already the thread is sabatoged, and those who love Our Blessed Mom feel compelled to defend her, although she doesn't need us to do that. Falsehoods need to be exposed for what they are: falsehoods.

IamAdopted reads "not until ("heos", in Greek)" to refer only to the future. This is a falsehood.

Matt. 1:25 - this verse says Joseph knew her "not until ("heos", in Greek)" she bore a son. IamAdopted will argue that this proves Joseph had relations with Mary after she bore a son. This is an erroneous reading of the text because "not until" does not mean "did not...until after." "Heos" references the past, never the future. Instead, "not until" she bore a son means "not up to the point that" she bore a son. This confirms that Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus. Here are other texts that prove "not until" means "not up to the point that":

The following should prove to most what I mean:

Matt. 28:29 - I am with you "until the end of the world."
If we apply IamAdopted's method of interpreting "heos", Jesus would be saying, "I am with you (heos) until, but not after, the end of the world." Most people can see that this is, of course, a falsehood.

Luke 20:43 - Jesus says, "take your seat at my hand until (heos) I have made your enemies your footstool." If we apply IamAdopted's method of interpreting "heos", Jesus would require the apostles to sit at His left hand after their enemies are their footstool. Most people can see that this too is, of course, a falsehood.

Luke 1:80 - John was in the desert "up to the point of (until) his manifestation to Israel." Not John "was in the desert until after" his manifestation. Most people can see that this too is, of course, a falsehood.

Luke 2:37 - Anna was a widow until she was eighty-four years old. She was not a widow after eighty-four years old. Most people can see that this too is, of course, a falsehood.

1 Tim. 4:13 - "up to the point that I come," attend to teaching and preaching. It does not mean do nothing "until after" I come.

Gen. 8:7 - the raven flew back and forth "up to the point that" [until] the waters dried from the earth. The raven did not start flying after the waters dried.

Gen. 28:15 - the Lord won't leave Jacob "up to the point that" he does His promise. This does not mean the Lord will leave Jacob afterward.

Deut. 34:6 - but "up to the point of today" no one knows Moses' burial place. This does not mean that "they did not know place until today."

2 Sam. 6:23 - Saul's daughter Micah was childless "up to the point" [until] her death. She was not with child after her death.
IamAdopted's man-made tradition has been refuted several times in many ways, but she will continue with inflammatory remarks such as "I also agree that She was a virgin until after Jesus was born" which also is contrary to the purpose of the OP.

Great idea. Lets start with the reformers.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin." Martin Luther, op. cit., Volume 11, 319-320.

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..." Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St.Louis], Volume 4, 694.


"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart." Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works (Translation by William J. Cole) 10, III, p.313.


"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis], Volume 51, 128-129.


Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".


"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 35.


"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
Bernard Leeming, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies, January 1967, p.9.


"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 424.

Ulrich Zwingli : "I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary." E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.
[URL="http://www.mariology.com/sections/reformers.html"]http://www.mariology.com/sections/reformers.html
[/URL]

Editing per OP's request.

Save this for another place.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Lasted exactly... zero posts. I tried.

I believe this debate over the meaning of until (!) is going on in another thread, so if any mods have time, please close this thread.

no, don't... it can be rescued.

I believe:

That Mary is and was the most Blessed women of all time. Mother of God Incarnate, she can certainly be called the Theotokos. Her example shines in a record where so many fail. Specially favoured of God, chosen, set apart, humble.

is that a good start?

 

[SeraphimSarov]

I believe:

That Mary is and was the most Blessed women of all time. Mother of God Incarnate, she can certainly be called the Theotokos. Her example shines in a record where so many fail. Specially favoured of God, chosen, set apart, humble.

is that a good start?

Yep. I dig it.

Any posts intended to flame, start debate, or troll will be reported. I'll just say what I meant in my OP: this section of CF is ridiculous. Nothing but trolling, flamewars, and taunting from all sides, myself included. How that fits CF's description is beyond me. So let's actually do something constructive, since I don't think anyone has convinced anyone else thus far in this forum.

 

[E.C.]

People! Do not debate! Debates do not allow learning or growth!

Discussions do.

 

[icedtea]

As many know, I was brought up Catholic, but never really paid much attention to Mary. There was lots I didn't pay attention to, to my regret.
I do understand she is the mother of Jesus, who is God, so is called Mother of God, Theotokos, and thats....okay, as Stuart Smalley would say.

common ground.
Lets see, Jesus was fully God and fully man. He died and was resurrected.
I know we all agree on that, and what could be more important?

 

[nestoj]

As many know, I was brought up Catholic, but never really paid much attention to Mary. There was lots I didn't pay attention to, to my regret.
I do understand she is the mother of Jesus, who is God, so is called Mother of God, Theotokos, and thats....okay, as Stuart Smalley would say.

common ground.
Lets see, Jesus was fully God and fully man. He died and was resurrected.
I know we all agree on that, and what could be more important?

That's a great start.

nestoj
God helps