Was he? I read that James lead the church at Jerusalem - the chief church of Christianity . . .
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Was he? I read that James lead the church at Jerusalem - the chief church of Christianity . . .
Today at 10:19 AM Wolseley said this in Post #31
Come now, Br. Max, isn't that just a little silly?
That's like saying George Washington was not the first President, because he didn't inherit the job from a previous Administration, or that he couldn't be the first President because he was only in charge of 13 States instead of 50.
Somebody's gotta be first. And while I will agree with you that the office of the Holy Father evolved and grew to an extent over the centuries, simply saying that Peter was never the first Pope because in his day the office did not contain the ecclesial limits that it does today is erroneous logic, IMHO.
By that token, you could say that the Church---Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, and Others---world-wide, is not Christianity because it doesn't remain fixed within the geographic confines where it was in the 1st century.
Actually, George was NOT the first American President.
There were presidents under the articles of confederation as well. George was the first President of the United States of America under the Constitution. A man by the name of Hanson was the first American President. But no one learns much about the American government between the Deceleration of Independence and the Constitution.
The first Pope was Linus and for the bulk of Christian History he was called as much. Peter was an apostle and first among Equals
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Stormy: despite what some wish to think and believe and teach - one does not need rome to have a valid priesthood. Scipture shows as much in the apostle Paul. The 11 raised up Matthias which is completely legal - but God alone raised up Paul and even though they did not want to accept his ordination at the hands of God they had little choice.
and even though they did not want to accept his ordination at the hands of God they had little choice.
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geocajun
Priest of the holy smackrament
Stormy, I appreciate what your saying, but God always has revealed himself to us through men... look at every convenant throughout the bible, all given by God to men, through men. Even Saint Paul was told directly by God to go to the Church for instruction (Acts 9:3-7) - why, if God had already begun this dialogue with Saul, was Saul not further led by the spirit to truth?
God
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wols: :gasp: disagreement?? We have to drawl blood know you know . . . who goes for whose throat first?
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Stormy,
That's what I am talking about, if you are going to baptized by a 'Church' no matter what the Church calls it's self, you will have to make some kind of profession of faith that they prescribe.
And I don't think your weak, I think you are trying to make the right choice. What I don't understand is why non denominational worship is not satisfying to you? Why are you looking for a 'Church' if you want to be in full control of your spirituality and matters of faith? And I also do not see how you think Catholicism would interfear with the work the Christ a begun in you?
This is not an insult, it is a honest question.
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geocajun
Priest of the holy smackrament
Today at 02:00 PM Br. Max said this in Post #67 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658906#post658906)
Geo: and who did Paul go and see? James
exactly, a good Catholic Bishop!
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Wolseley
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Blood? What blood? I'm an American who happens to love my country and believe that serving her is an honorable enterprise, and I foolishly carried that attitude into the News and Current Events Forum.
I don't have any blood left.
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for ya. God bless u.Stormy
Senior Contributor
I am chuck-full of Faith in Christ... isn't that all that most churches demand that you believe to be baptized?
I want confession to a Priest. I want real presence at communion. I like praying the rosary.
It is not so much that I "want" to be in control as I am not able to allow anyone other than God to lead me.
I have an apprehension of the Roman Catholic Church. It is partly because of the sins that have been committed by those who were to guard the faith but also it has this weird tie in with the EU... maybe, and more than likely ... it is all "in my head". But I have read many papers in the past of correspondence between the EU and the Vatican. It has led me to believe that it is more than likely that the EU would want the Pope to preside over the One world religion. Many things that the Pope has said leads me to think that just maybe... he is taking the bait.
So you can understand with such thoughts in my head ... I have no place in your Church.
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Wolseley
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Stormy, I think much of your apprehension may stem from the popular acceptance of dispensationalist theology.
This particular school of thought ties toegther several commons strands, such as the "one world religion/government", the "rapture", and so on, and usually more than not identifies the Catholic Church and the Pope as being the mastermind of the whole thing. Tim LaHaye, Jerry Jenkins, John Walvoord, and Hal Lindsey have made substantial fortunes peddling this stuff.
It's possible that if you were to get outside this school of thought, and to see that the Catholic Church is not, never was, and never will "The Great harlot of Babylon", the obstacles you are experiencing might be greatly relieved if not eliminated outright.
I would like to suggest two books for you, which I believe might help you to see this from a different viewpoint:
The Apocalypse and the Third Millennium: Today's Guide to the Book of Revelation, by George T. Montague; Servant Publications, 1998. ASIN: 1569551065.
The Rapture Trap: A Catholic Response to "End Times" Fever, by Paul Thigpen; Ascension Press, 2001. ISBN: 0965922820.
You might find these to be very helpful.
This particular school of thought ties toegther several commons strands, such as the "one world religion/government", the "rapture", and so on, and usually more than not identifies the Catholic Church and the Pope as being the mastermind of the whole thing. Tim LaHaye, Jerry Jenkins, John Walvoord, and Hal Lindsey have made substantial fortunes peddling this stuff.
It's possible that if you were to get outside this school of thought, and to see that the Catholic Church is not, never was, and never will "The Great harlot of Babylon", the obstacles you are experiencing might be greatly relieved if not eliminated outright.
I would like to suggest two books for you, which I believe might help you to see this from a different viewpoint:
The Apocalypse and the Third Millennium: Today's Guide to the Book of Revelation, by George T. Montague; Servant Publications, 1998. ASIN: 1569551065.
The Rapture Trap: A Catholic Response to "End Times" Fever, by Paul Thigpen; Ascension Press, 2001. ISBN: 0965922820.
You might find these to be very helpful.
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I want confession to a Priest. I want real presence at communion. I like praying the rosary.
Well then you have to make a decision, and I know that is what you are trying to do. You do not have to be Catholic to pray the rosary.
Well then you have to make a decision, and I know that is what you are trying to do. You do not have to be Catholic to pray the rosary.
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Where in Matthew do you find Christ saying - "Peter, when I die, YOU are in charge"?
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"Peter you are rock and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against you, I give you the keys to the kingdom, what-so-ever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, what-so-ever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven"
Johns gospel, "Feed my sheep."
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Jesus said I have given them the glory that you gave me that they may be one as we are one I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. (John 17: 22-23)
If Jesus WANTED thousands of different Churches all with different doctrines and Bible interpretations, why did He say otherwise?
Matthew 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
John 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
1Ti 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
Matthew 18.17: "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church, and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax-collector."
As far as I can see, there is one chain of conclusions from scripture:
1. Jesus founded One Church, and said that it should remain One. He did not want a divided and constantly splitting Church.
2. Jesus promised that the Church would be preserved in truth by the Holy Spirit and that He would remain with it until the "end of the age."
3. The Church Jesus founded was led by Apostles, who passed their Authority on to Bishops.
4. The earliest writings of the Church confirm that it took a Catholic view of Authority, the Sacraments, Church Order, Real Presence in Communion, Regenerative Baptism, Prayer for the Dead, the significance of Mary, the means of Salvation, and other doctrines.
5. There is no evidence of ANY group of Christians holding to the main Protestant teachings before 1520. Protestant teachings are therefore New to Christianity, even though they claim to be derived from Scripture.
6. New teachings, beyond those held by the Church are condemned in scripture.
7. The Protestant justification for the truth of their belief demands that Jesus's promises that He would remain with His Church forever, and that the Holy Spirit would guide it in truth, were false, since according to them, God abandoned the Church to error before 1520. This is not consistent with God's promises.
8. Since Protestant teachings have not been preached through all ages, as demanded by Scripture, Protestant teachings must, on this count alone, be false.
9. Only one Church was founded on the Apostles, remains in communion with the See of Peter, maintains Apostolic Succession, and has fulfilled the warrant of Scripture by preaching the same doctrine to all generations for 2,000 years, from Pentecost to the Present. The Catholic Church.
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