Comments on the pope

[dignitized]

Today at 06:06 PM chelcb said this in Post #79

"Peter you are rock and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against you, I give you the keys to the kingdom, what-so-ever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, what-so-ever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven"

John’s gospel, "Feed my sheep."

Now here is one of the problems of scripture. Punctuation. I can read that verse to mean something quite different than you do. What more, The position you hold has never been universally held by the whole church. And - if that was not enough - even that does not imply that Peter was in charge or that those who hold his "see" after him hold the same authority. As for Binding and loosening - Christ gave those powers to all the apostles NOT just peter.

As for feeding sheep that makes one a SERVANT not a Prince or a leader.

So . . . I still do not see Christ saying - Peter, you’re in charge.

 

[chelcb]

But when you read Acts you clearly see he was.

But this is about the Catholics claim that Peter is our first leader, I think this scripture shows he was.

 

[dignitized]

AGAIN I Read acts and see JAMES in charge. I think if you want to see peter incharge you will in every lil thing said about him.

 

[nyj]

Today at 05:44 PM Br. Max said this in Post #81 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=659358#post659358)

As for feeding sheep that makes one a SERVANT not a Prince or a leader.

So . . . I still do not see Christ saying - Peter, you’re in charge.

Now now Brother Max. Let us look at the entire discourse, shall we?

John 21:15-19
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." A second time he said to him, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" And he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep. Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you girded yourself and walked where you would; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish to go." (This he said to show by what death he was to glorify God.) And after this he said to him, "Follow me."

Feed my lambs, tend my sheep, feed my sheep.

Jesus is giving Peter a specific command here, one of a shepherd appointing another shepherd in his stead.

In John, chapter 10 verse 11, Jesus states: I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

The next time Jesus mentions sheep in the Gospel of John is when he places His sheep (notice Jesus' possessive speech when referring to the sheep) under the care of Peter.

The conclusion is obvious.

 

[linda4jesus]

The Old Testament clearly established a priesthood (the Levites) to serve Israel. This earthly priesthood was a symbol of the Messiah's eternal priesthood. The book of Hebrews explains its purpose and fulfillment.

The special office of priest was fulfilled in our Savior, and thus came to an end in Him.

When we move from the Old Testament to the New Testament, it is striking that while there are pagan priests and Jewish priests on the scene, no individual Christian is ever specifically identified as a priest.

The Epistle to the Hebrews speaks of the high priesthood of Jesus by comparing his death and entry into heaven with the actions of the Jewish high priest who went into the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle once a year with a offering for himself and for the sins of his people (Hebrews 9:6-7).

But it is noteworthy that the author of Hebrews does not associate the priesthood of Jesus with the Eucharist or the Last Supper; neither does he suggest that other Christians are priests in the likeness of Jesus.

In fact, the once-for-all atmosphere that surrounds the priesthood of Jesus in Hebrews 10:12-14, has been offered as an explanation of why there are no Christian priests in the New Testament period.

 

[dignitized]

Chelsi - I see that every verse you wish to use to back a claim of papal primacy can be interpreted differently. If it was a clear issue there would be no difference on this issue. Every church would either be under the pope or have their own pope.

 

[linda4jesus]

1 Peter 2

4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

All Christians are part of the priesthood, we all are pieces of stone that make up the church.

 

[linda4jesus]

Matthew 16:13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He began asking His disciples, saying, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"

Matthew 16:14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."

Matthew 16:15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it."

The Greek word for Peter is petros, meaning "a pebble." The Greek word for rock is petra, meaning "a massive rock" such as bedrock. Jesus is the Rock, petra. Everyone who receives this revelation from the Father like Peter received it—that Jesus is the Son of God (Lord and Savior)—becomes a part of His Church.

Christ used the word petra when He told the parable of the man building a house upon a rock to illustrate its size.

Matthew 7:24-25 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and acts upon them, may be compared to a wise man, who built his house upon the rock (petra). And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and burst against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded upon the rock (petra)."

Jesus was talking about building upon bedrock, not a pebble.

The apostle Paul tells us that Jesus is the foundation upon which we build our lives:

1 Cor. 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

The apostle Peter also informed us that every believer is a "stone" and that Jesus Christ is the "cornerstone" or foundation.

1 Peter 2:4-6 And coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected by men, but choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious cornerstone, and he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."

Every believer is a stone in Christ’s Church. Peter was not the rock, but just one of many who are a part of this spiritual house of worship.

 

[nyj]

Today at 06:24 PM linda4jesus said this in Post #88 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=659420#post659420)

The Greek word for Peter is petros, meaning "a pebble." The Greek word for rock is petra, meaning "a massive rock" such as bedrock. Jesus is the Rock, petra. Everyone who receives this revelation from the Father like Peter received it—that Jesus is the Son of God (Lord and Savior)—becomes a part of His Church.

Christ used the word petra when He told the parable of the man building a house upon a rock to illustrate its size.

Oy! No!

Fact #1

Speaking in Aramaic, the vulgar language of the people in the region, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, renamed Simon Bar-Jona "Cephas" the transliteration of the Aramaic word "kepha" which means "Rock". If Jesus had intended to rename Simon Bar-Jona, "little stone" or "pebble" he would have use the Aramaic word "kevna" but he did not.

St. John's Gospel records the words of Jesus when he met the fisherman, Simon Bar-Jona for the very first time;

John 1:42
He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, "So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas" (which means Peter).


Fact #2

Protestant Greek scholars like D.A. Carson and Joseph Thayer admit there is no distinction in meaning between petros and petra in the Koine Greek of the New Testament. [Joseph H. Thayer, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1996), 507; D.A. Carson, "Matthew," in Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., The Expositor's Bible Commentary (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984), vol. 8, 368.] As it has been pointed out, petra means a 'rock.' It even usually means a 'large rock.' And that's exactly what petros means, too - large rock. It does not mean 'pebble' or 'small stone,' as some have claimed. The Greek word for 'pebble' or 'small stone' is lithos, not petros.

 

[geocajun]

Today at 06:20 PM Br. Max said this in Post #86 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=659412#post659412)

Chelsi - I see that every verse you wish to use to back a claim of papal primacy can be interpreted differently. If it was a clear issue there would be no difference on this issue. Every church would either be under the pope or have their own pope.

They do Max, they just call their pope "preacher" or they are their very own pope. . .
Everyone has an earthly authority, and we believe Jesus founded his Church on the Davidic dynasty, following the same example he set in Isaiah 22:22 by giving Eliakim the key of David.
Others believe Jesus founded the Church on them, even though they would not have even known who Jesus is had it not been for the Church He founded on Peter...

On one hand, I see an ancient Church which has survived 2000 years, which so happens to be older than any form of government or institution, *ever* - there have been many great forms of government, lead by great people that have failed, but the gates of hell has never, and will never prevail against the Catholic Church.
So I see that I can either put my faith in myself, or put my faith in this ancient institution which gave me the very bible I read.
I think the logical choice is the Church, and I think thats why Jesus gave it to us - so that we could have a visible objective authority - a city on a hill which cannot be hid. (Matt 5:14)

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

 

[sklippstein]

They do Max, they just call their pope "preacher" or they are their very own pope. . .

 

HUH??????

 

[linda4jesus]

I have no comment (KC are you watching) I have no comment.

 

[dignitized]

Today at 08:03 PM geocajun said this in Post #90

They do Max, they just call their pope "preacher" or they are their very own pope. . .
Everyone has an earthly authority, and we believe Jesus founded his Church on the Davidic dynasty, following the same example he set in Isaiah 22:22 by giving Eliakim the key of David.
Others believe Jesus founded the Church on them, even though they would not have even known who Jesus is had it not been for the Church He founded on Peter...

On one hand, I see an ancient Church which has survived 2000 years, which so happens to be older than any form of government or institution, *ever* - there have been many great forms of government, lead by great people that have failed, but the gates of hell has never, and will never prevail against the Catholic Church.
So I see that I can either put my faith in myself, or put my faith in this ancient institution which gave me the very bible I read.
I think the logical choice is the Church, and I think thats why Jesus gave it to us - so that we could have a visible objective authority - a city on a hill which cannot be hid. (Matt 5:14)

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

 

dude - read a bit father back in the OT and in History - God gave a king because the people wanted one NOT because he wanted them to have one. He started with them subject to the PROPHETS of course they never liked what the prophets had to say and usually killed them so then he gave them judges and they didn't like that then he gave them SAUL and if you notice the Jewish Kingship was messed up from the start even the best kings were either corrupt or massively sinful. Not a good model to go by I would say. As far as the government of the Ancient church - are you aware that the Ancient church allows only for Deacons, Presbyters or Priests and Episcopos or Bishops. There is no Higher rank in the ancient church. The office of Patriarch EVOLVED as cities of prominence became teaching centers.


 

 

[dignitized]

it seems it is as I feared. I am not welcome to post here. I either have to walk along with out offering that there are other points of view amonst those who are in effect "catholic" and conform to the RCC or not post in this forum. I have been so informed more or less by a moderator for this forum.

 

[nyj]

Today at 08:04 PM Br. Max said this in Post #93 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=659583#post659583)

As far as the government of the Ancient church - are you aware that the Ancient church allows only for Deacons, Presbyters or Priests and Episcopos or Bishops. There is no Higher rank in the ancient church. The office of Patriarch EVOLVED as cities of prominence became teaching centers.

Brother Max,

The Pope is the Bishop of Rome. He is the "first amongst equals".

 

[chelcb]

Today at 06:20 PM Br. Max said this in Post #86

Chelsi - I see that every verse you wish to use to back a claim of papal primacy can be interpreted differently. If it was a clear issue there would be no difference on this issue. Every church would either be under the pope or have their own pope.

 

I get what you are saying, Br. Max but wasn't Peter referred to as the head apostle regardless whether or not he was later called pope?

 

[chelcb]

Today at 07:39 PM sklippstein said this in Post #91

 

HUH??????

 

I think what Geo means is that every protestant minister claims to be his own source of authority by using the verse in Matt.

 

[sklippstein]

Aren't most ministers.....held accountable to some form of council?

 

[Wolseley]

....

 

[chelcb]

Today at 09:10 PM sklippstein said this in Post #98

Aren't most ministers.....held accountable to some form of council?

 

Some but not all. The non denominational, no. And the 'bible only' churchs, no.