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Comments on CDC AIDS Statistics

FSTDT

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I've seen ChristianCenturian post this link to the CDC.gov HIV statistics page on more than one occasion, which among other things indicates that homosexuals account for at least 41.6% of reported HIV cases in 2003.

I just have a few comments on them: the first thing to notice is that through to 2003, gay men accounted for about 48% of reported cases, and in 2003 they accounted for only 42%. At the very least, these are optimistic figures, because it means that the infection rate is much lower than it was before.

As far as I know, the statistics are accurate, however the implications of them are very misleading: first, the reason why gay men have a higher tendency to have AIDS has nothing to do with superstitious thinking, its just a matter of statistics. The statistics appear very unintuitive, but I assure you that our intuitional expectations have nothing to do with statistics (for instance we intuitively expect HIV to be evenly distributed across everyone, when in fact that isn't the case), and everything will make sense once the statistics are explained.

I've divided my comments into a few parts to make it slightly easier to read.


Individual Risk Of Infection: Heterosexual vs. Homosexual Men

Here is why the statistics work out the way they do:
- Imagine we have a population of 1000 people (500 men and 500 women), and that 2% of that population (or 20 people) is made up of homosexual males. We are neglecting lesbians and bisexuals for the purposes of simplicity.

- Imagine two men from that population, one heterosexual and one homosexual, both have HIV and don't know it.

- Now, if we assume that both HIV-positive men have sex with a random individual in the population, the risk of infection to any single female is 1:479, however the risk of infection to any single homosexual man is 1:19.

In other words, if we assume that both HIV-positive men will have an equal number of sexual partners and safe-sex, every sexual partner that a homosexual male meets have a greater chance of being infected.


Individual Risk With Condom Use

Of course, what I've mentioned above is only a most ideal case, because statistically speaking a heterosexual man is more likely to use a condom than a homosexual man. This is just a consequence of statistics as well, because having unprotected heterosexual sex runs a 1:10 chance of having an unwanted child (I don't have a source to back that statistic up, but it isn't essential for me to make my point), so the reinforcing factors for wearing a condom are much higher for heterosexual men than for homosexual men.

Unfortunately, most people forget that condoms aren't just for protecting against unwanted children, they are also for protecting your health. Because heterosexual men are more likely to use condoms than homosexual men, the individual risk for any single potential sexual partner is greater for homosexual men than for heterosexual women. Here are just a few mock statistics to illustrate the point:

- Assume that an average heterosexual man uses a condom for every 3 out of 4 partners, and that an average homosexual man uses a condom for every 2 out of 4 partners.

- Using the statistics above, the individual risk for sexual partners can be plotted according to the formula [individual risk of meeting an HIV-positive partner] * [Frequency that HIV-positive partner uses a condom]. For now, condoms are going to be assumed to be 100% effective, just for the purposes of simplicity:

-- Risk for heterosexual women: (1:479) * (3:4) = 3:1916, or ~1:639, or approximately .1568%
-- Risk for homosexual men: (1:19) * (1:2) = 1:38, or approximately 2.632%


Note On Statistics

The above does not take into account the average number of sexual partners that each heterosexual male and homosexual male will have. If its true that homosexual men have more partners, then the individual risk for each partner goes up slightly. (So far, I have not found reliable statistics on the number of partners heterosexual and homosexual males have.)

We also have to contrast these USA-centric statistics to the AIDS epidemic in Africa. The reason why the epidemic is so horrible in Africa is because the use of condoms is less frequent, and there are more open wounds where HIV can be transmitted. So the incidence of AIDS in Africa accelerates more quickly than in the US.


Conclusions

Hopefully, now, the explanation for why AIDS is more frequent in homosexual men than in any other group becomes more obvious: it is a myth that HIV is going to be evenly distributed, simply because the individual risk of infection for heterosexual and homosexual populations is not the same.

Statistically speaking, homosexual men are more likely to encounter an HIV-positive sexual partner and more likely to spread than his heterosexual counterparts, so the incidence of HIV-infection will accelerate more quickly among homosexuals than among heterosexuals. Even worse, as the number of infected homosexual males increases, the risk of infection for potential partners increases at a faster rate than his heterosexual counterparts.

So, take the above situation and fast-forward a few years, and what do you have: obviously, you have a greater percentage of infected homosexual males than infected heterosexuals, and a larger number of infected homosexuals overall.


Postscript

Unfortunately, there is a stigma among bigots to believe that prevalence of AIDS among homosexuals indicates that homosexuality is bad. That is a false conclusion, because the way the statistics and individual risk work out, the fact that homosexual men make up a higher number of new HIV infections a year is not statistically out of the ordinary.

Its not the fact that they are homosexual that matters, its because they have a smaller pool of potential partners, and that increases the individual risk of infection. The same conclusions hold true for any population where any single individual has only 19 potential partners, such as a population of 20 heterosexual men and 20 heterosexual women on a deserted island. If one person has HIV in such a small population, it could ravage the entire community.

Ironically, you'll notice that bisexuals have the least individual risk, because they have the largest pool of potential partners: for bisexual women its 479 men plus whatever number of lesbian and bisexual women, and for bisexual men its 500 women plus 20 gay men plus whatever number of other bisexual men. And if we assumed everyone in the population I have above was a bisexual with no change in the number of HIV infections, then bisexuals have about a 2:1000 or 1:500 risk of infection (assuming bisexuals have an equal number of male and female partners). So, the next time you hear someone say that being gay is immoral because it increases the risk of HIV, ask that person if he or she is a bisexual; if they say they aren't, call them a hypocritical immoral weasel.

Of course, hopefully this has been a valuable lesson in statistics for everyone. If you insist on being sexually active, it doesn't matter if you are heterosexual or not, you should always use a condom, get yourself tested for HIV often. And if condoms are 99% effective, then you can stop 99% of all future HIV-infections by just using a condom everytime.

This message has been brought to you by a heterosexual male.
 

85soi4

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FSTDT said:
I've seen ChristianCenturian post this link to the CDC.gov HIV statistics page on more than one occasion, which among other things indicates that homosexuals account for at least 41.6% of reported HIV cases in 2003. >snip<

Nice analysis!

Two comments, however:

1) Your projections about the spread of AIDS is more likely to be true in a population with static behavior. That is, education (telling people why they have to use condoms in encounters with sexual partners about whom they have no knowledge of that partner's HIV status) does make a difference. HIV rates in the gay community came down after massive community outreach. So, all I'm saying is that the spread is not inevitable or unstoppable. Ignorance doesn't work. Leading me to my second point:

2) The Catholic Church teaches that use of condoms is a major sin. Ergo, it shouldn't be a surprise that in predominantly Catholic countries, that rates of HIV are significantly higher than in neighboring, predominantly Protestant countries. Ergo, again, education works; ignorance doesn't.
 
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ChristianCenturion

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Well, it is a noteworthy attempt to explain that not everything is clean and simple math; unfortunately, the analysis still has that "lab sterility" within it when not addressing all the issues that can effect the result of the "real world".

Case in point:
Gay and Bi Men Less Likely to Disclose They Have HIV

BTW - Just so things are on the up and up, please provide the foundations (i.e. evidence) for this:

"... the risk of infection to any single female is 1:479, however the risk of infection to any single homosexual man is 1:19."

The lesson in statistical considerations aside, the conclusion is still ignoring that the visible symptom remains i.e. immoral sexual practices potentially does harm.
 
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FSTDT

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ChristianCenturion said:
Well, it is a noteworthy attempt to explain that not everything is clean and simple math; unfortunately, the analysis still has that "lab sterility" within it when not addressing all the issues that can effect the result of the "real world".

Case in point:
Gay and Bi Men Less Likely to Disclose They Have HIV
Yes, thats very unfortunate :(

We should encourage every to get tested, and be open with their partners.

BTW - Just so things are on the up and up, please provide the foundations (i.e. evidence) for this:

"... the risk of infection to any single female is 1:479, however the risk of infection to any single homosexual man is 1:19."
In the population I outlined, there were 500 men and 500 women.

For men: there were 20 gay men in that population, one of them has HIV. So, each homosexual man's individual risk is 1 infection per 19 other potential partners, you get 1:19.

For women: there are 500 men in the population, but 20 of them are gay. So they only have 480 potential partners, and at least one of them is HIV-positive. So, their individual risk is 1 infection per 480 partners, you get 1:480.

Alright, so I was off by one, sue me :)

The lesson in statistical considerations aside, the conclusion is still ignoring that the visible symptom remains i.e. immoral sexual practices potentially does harm.
No, thats wrong. The implications are the individual risk as they relate to population size.

For example, imagine a hypothetical population of 500 homosexual men, 10 heterosexual men, and 10 heterosexual women. Two people are HIV-positive, one is a homosexual man and the other is a heterosexual woman. When you do the math, the individual risk for any homosexual man is 1:499, and for any heterosexual man is 1:10.

You can reliably predict that the heterosexual population will be ravaged at a faster rate than the homosexual population because the heterosexuals have a better chance of meeting an infected partner.
 
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ChristianCenturion

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FSTDT said:
Yes, thats very unfortunate :(

We should encourage every to get tested, and be open with their partners.


In the population I outlined, there were 500 men and 500 women.

For men: there were 20 gay men in that population, one of them has HIV. So, each homosexual man's individual risk is 1 infection per 19 other potential partners, you get 1:19.

For women: there are 500 men in the population, but 20 of them are gay. So they only have 480 potential partners, and at least one of them is HIV-positive. So, their individual risk is 1 infection per 480 partners, you get 1:480.

Alright, so I was off by one, sue me :)
You are off by more than one.
You are committing hypocrisy in using sterile statistical compounding to produce the infection probability.
IOW - if you wish to be actually practicing what you are preaching, you would have to include differing probability of transferal between that of oral, anal and vaginal sex (and the proportional proclivities within those "groups").
No, thats wrong. The implications are the individual risk as they relate to population size.

For example, imagine a hypothetical population of 500 homosexual men, 10 heterosexual men, and 10 heterosexual women. Two people are HIV-positive, one is a homosexual man and the other is a heterosexual woman. When you do the math, the individual risk for any homosexual man is 1:499, and for any heterosexual man is 1:10.

You can reliably predict that the heterosexual population will be ravaged at a faster rate than the homosexual population because the heterosexuals have a better chance of meeting an infected partner.

All based on made up numbers and a member's held premise(s).
Let me know when the OP actually has the evidence to support the OP assertions.
 
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FSTDT

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ChristianCenturion said:
You are off by more than one.
You are committing hypocrisy in using sterile statistical compounding to produce the infection probability.
IOW - if you wish to be actually practicing what you are preaching, you would have to include differing probability of transferal between that of oral, anal and vaginal sex (and the proportional proclivities within those "groups").
No need to be snippy.

Of course, notice throughout my opening post how I mentioned there were certain groups excluded for the purposes of simplicity; that's not a secret. But, in general, you're correct, to produce an exhaustive analysis of the risk of HIV exposure I'd need a lot more information. But I wasn't trying to paint a picture of exhaustive analysis, just trying to lay down some general principles of infection risks which are true in the hypothetical population I used and in the real world; as far as I'm concerned your comment is a red herring that misses the point of this thread.
 
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Angel4Truth

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FSTDT said:
No need to be snippy.

<snip> as far as I'm concerned your comment is a red herring that misses the point of this thread.

Actually , from my veiw , the red herring would be the first comment above , since all he did was refute your post .
 
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FSTDT

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Angel4Truth said:
Actually , from my veiw , the red herring would be the first comment above , since all he did was refute your post .
No he didn't. His complaint was that my opening post was not an exhaustive study of someone's individual risk; that much is true, but it's not a refutation of anything. Because CC did not appear to challenge the principles, implications, or conclusions from the opening post, but rather divert attention to an unrelated subject of whether my opening post was exhaustive or not (whether it is or isn't does not affect my original claims), his reply is red herring by definition.

My opening post was an explanation for why our intuitional expectations about the rates of HIV-infection are wrong, and that statistically the fact that homosexuals accounting for a larger proportion of new HIV infections every year is nothing out of the ordinary. The reasoning was that homosexuals have a greater individual risk, so their rate of infection would accelerate faster than heterosexuals.

Which of those aforementioned facts were refuted from the opening post?.
 
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TeddyKGB

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ChristianCenturion said:
You are off by more than one.
You are committing hypocrisy in using sterile statistical compounding to produce the infection probability.
IOW - if you wish to be actually practicing what you are preaching, you would have to include differing probability of transferal between that of oral, anal and vaginal sex (and the proportional proclivities within those "groups").
Your criticisms have merit, but that does not invalidate the substance of his argument. Per the thought experiment, homosexual men will be exposed to HIV-positive individuals more than 20 times as often as heterosexual women.

Regardless of the differences in transmissibility between sex acts, the base probabilities are staggeringly dissimilar.
 
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B®ent

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The reason homosexual men account for 42% of AIDS cases is because they choose to put something where it does not belong. As the Bible says: Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
 
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TeddyKGB

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Restformationist said:
The reason sodomites account for 42% of AIDS cases is because they choose to put something where it does not belong. As the Bible says: Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Gee, thanks. I had no idea some Christians use the Bible to support their anti-homosexual positions.
 
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ChristianCenturion

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TeddyKGB said:
Your criticisms have merit, but that does not invalidate the substance of his argument. Per the thought experiment, homosexual men will be exposed to HIV-positive individuals more than 20 times as often as heterosexual women.

Regardless of the differences in transmissibility between sex acts, the base probabilities are staggeringly dissimilar.

It's interesting at first, but that is about it.
When hunting rabbits and I see a pile of droppings, I may find it interesting, but I don't pick the pile up, stick it in my pocket, all so that I can keep it.

Let's review shall we?
What is the OP?
It's an objection/rebuttal that the statistics don't reflect any moral connotation.
What does it do while attempting to reason out the assertion?

It makes up numbers to produce a base of fictional statistics only to arrive at the conclusion that statistics alone show that it is probability dictating who gets AIDS, not morality or behavior. The circular portion of this is only outdone by any hypocrisy of using statistics alone for the assertion and ignorance that the percentages (ratio) of the given subject groups are an unknown. But as if inserting a favorable ratio for the unknown was not enough, that was compounded (distorting the probability) by inserting the premise that the heterosexual model were more "motivated" to use condoms than the homosexual model due to a pregnancy issue.

How all that passes these days for a 4.2. issue requiring evidence seems to be escaping me currently.

Let's also not overlook what else the OP must do to "reason" out its conclusion:

It must make ALL the participants immoral by making ALL participants promiscuous. How convenient to rebut a morality issue where the evidence reflects promiscuity with a heap of garbage that makes ALL the "examined" immorally promiscuous, ignoring that one group defined by their sexual practices is going against a held morality or the group shows that they don't care about certain moralities.
It also imitates its defended group by adhering to stagnant foundations. IOW - instead of reality where people die, are born, the populace has a cycle, changes, etc. it holds the groups in a fixed and isolated condition so that the glass of water being contaminated only gets "more" contaminated. No fresh water coming in and no removal of contaminates going out.

But let's all pretend not have a need to look at it objectively. After all, the main issue at hand is that of certain groups showing evidence of disproportional promiscuity. When we can make assertions such as the OP, why would we need to be honest about this and hold that ONLY a certain percentage of any group would be promiscuous and thereby ONLY exposing THAT percentage to a preventable disease? No need to acknowledge that a very low percentage of the examined accounts for such a large portion of the sexually communicable disease statistics when we can make up numbers, insert our own premises and call it all good, right?

Wrong.
 
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FSTDT

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ChristianCenturion said:
It makes up numbers to produce a base of fictional statistics only to arrive at the conclusion that statistics alone show that it is probability dictating who gets AIDS, not morality or behavior.
No, you're wrong. You're stuck in an intuitional belief that AIDS is going to be evenly distributed, but thats just intuition that has nothing to do with the real world.

Believe me, this happens all the time. Another classic example of when intuition doesn't mesh well with statistics is this: if a drug test has an accuracy of 99.5% accuracy, and it pings a person as a drug user, what are the odds that the person actually uses drugs (i.e. is a true positive). Here's a hint: it's not 99.5%. Its 50%*. Mull over that for a while, see if you can figure out why that is (ask me if you want an explanation). When you get done with that, please don't complain there is anything out of the ordinary about my opening post unless you can actually show that the math is in error.

* Edit: I wrote that too fast. Its true that the percentage won't be 99.5%, unless the entire tested population is a drug user. Its only 50% in particular cases, such as in a tested population 10000 where 50 are drug users.
 
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ChristianCenturion

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FSTDT said:
No, you're wrong. You're stuck in an intuitional belief that AIDS is going to be evenly distributed, but thats just intuition that has nothing to do with the real world.
The only intuitional belief would be that a sexually transmitted disease would be evenly distributed between groups of like i.e. sexually promiscuous and proportional to that promiscuity and protective practices. As has been pointed out, the OP is garbage.
Believe me, this happens all the time. Another classic example of when intuition doesn't mesh well with statistics is this: if a drug test has an accuracy of 99.5% accuracy, and it pings a person as a drug user, what are the odds that the person actually uses drugs (i.e. is a true positive). Here's a hint: it's not 99.5%. Its 50%. Mull over that for a while, see if you can figure out why that is (ask me if you want an explanation). When you get done with that, please don't complain there is anything out of the ordinary about my opening post unless you can actually show that the math is in error.

"Believe me, this happens all the time"... with only a little knowledge or selective application of various statistical analysis methods/principals result in flawed HYPOTHESES all the time.
 
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Phred

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ChristianCenturion said:
The only intuitional belief would be that a sexually transmitted disease would be evenly distributed between groups of like i.e. sexually promiscuous and proportional to that promiscuity and protective practices. As has been pointed out, the OP is garbage.
Unless you can show how the math is in error the OP is correct and you're the one posting garbage.
 
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