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Commandments for Gentiles?

visionary

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Gxg (G²);62198017 said:
Many was noted in what has been discussed before on other discussions - and as Hililel was one of the main ones with many under scribes/leaders under him who followed Yeshua and taught things echoed in his teaching, it was why I asked directly if you investigated him at all. Have you do so? Whether or not you've done so is an indicator in whether you're really wanting addressment - or wanting to do more than what you're willing to do on a basic level. And if you've not taken time to even research Hiliel's school as a first step, one will assume there's little concern on actually addressing what was said in Judaism by other rabbis on Yeshua. It's a very basic thing to do if having serious concern on the issue and wanting real study - so as said before, show concern in dealing with the small things first ..and then we'll go from there in-depth since it will be confirmed you're actually concerned. That much has been done by others multiple times - and for someone of your intelligence, I'm certain you are capable of doing the same :)
Do you have a website in mind where one can check out Hillel's work?
 
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Torah Lishmah

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I would take issue with referencing Noahide laws with the Jerusalem Council as Noahide did not exist as a separate organization with laws until the 1200's
That's correct. You might be surprised at how many people don't know this, and assume the Noachide movement-religion is an ancient one. As you have correctly pointed out, it isn't.
 
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Torah Lishmah

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Gxg (G²);62198017 said:
Many was noted in what has been discussed before on other discussions - and as Hililel was one of the main ones with many under scribes/leaders under him who followed Yeshua and taught things echoed in his teaching, it was why I asked directly if you investigated him at all.
Am I misunderstanding you, or are you suggesting that Hillel was a follower of Jesus? The reason I ask is because that's absolutely impossible.
 
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aniello

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Am I misunderstanding you, or are you suggesting that Hillel was a follower of Jesus? The reason I ask is because that's absolutely impossible.

Since Hillel died circa 10CE of course such is impossible, agreed.

I am thinking the poster meant Gamaliel who lived to about 50 CE, iirc. But that's a guess on my part, of course.
 
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Torah Lishmah

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Since Hillel died circa 10CE of course such is impossible, agreed.
Exactly. Which is why I asked. Had Hillel been alive in Jesus' day, Jesus would have been the student, and Hillel the teacher. As appalling as it may seem to almost all Christians, Jesus was indeed a Pharisee. He was definitely a disciple of Yochanan during "the silent years" just prior to his ministry.
 
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pat34lee

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Exactly. Which is why I asked. Had Hillel been alive in Jesus' day, Jesus would have been the student, and Hillel the teacher. As appalling as it may seem to almost all Christians, Jesus was indeed a Pharisee. He was definitely a disciple of Yochanan during "the silent years" just prior to his ministry.

First, Yeshua did not follow any religious leader. Why would he need anyone's opinion on scripture when he is the word incarnate? Hillel is just one in a line of pharisees that built off the work of others.

What makes you think that Yochanan was a pharisee? He was a priest, not a rabbi.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Am I misunderstanding you, or are you suggesting that Hillel was a follower of Jesus? The reason I ask is because that's absolutely impossible.
Just caught this ( as I saw the thread was brought up from earlier this year) - and IMHO, misunderstanding I think is occurring - as I was not of the mindset that Hillel was a follower of Yeshua. What was said was that there were others within the school of Hiliel (i.e. his teachings, philosophies, ideals) who later came to follow Yeshua in light of how Yeshua taught many things predominately in line with the camp of Hiliel - as opposed to the school of Shammai.

It's the same as sayinmg that others were in the school of Booker T.Washington who later came to be followers of Johnny Douglass - even though Booker T.Washington and Johnny were not in the same timeframe. Hope that makes sense....and on the issue, yes - I believe Yeshua taught in accordance with the school of Hiliel predominately (as he was much in line with the Pharisees discussed in #116 , #74, #162 ) ...even though he also taught things in other camps as well - namely, the Essenes (as shared before in #2 , #26 , #30 #94, #46 , #115 , #523 ). Shalom :)


Do you have a website in mind where one can check out Hillel's work?
Saw this from earlier and never got to address it. But on the issue, for more, one can go here, here or to any of the following (as much of it deals with his direct quotations/writings and what other rabbis have said on it):


Rabbi Joseph Telushkin's - a brilliant rabbi who has done a lot in bringing the Jewish world of Yeshua's time alive - made a book entitled Hillel: If Not Now, When? which is an excellent resource on the issue that I wish others kept in mind more some of the things he said. For the book talks about Hillel's teachings and how there are multiple things we can learn from him and apply to our world today. The book is fascinating and thought-provoking, and it is really inspiring me to remember Hillel's teachings and try to apply them to my own life in that never-ending effort to become a better person and member of this world (Tikkun Olam). One of the teachings that Rabbi Telushkin spoke about is what Hillel told to the man who wanted Hillel to teach him the entire Torah while he stood on one foot. It was in relation to a conversation he had with a non-Jew:

“Convert me to Judaism on the condition that you can teach me the whole Torah while I’m standing on one foot,” the non-Jew said.

Hillel replied: “What’s hateful unto you don’t do to your neighbor. This is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Now go and study.”Telushkin noted that Hillel didn’t speak about God or even Jewish law, but rather focused on ethics. Specifically, Hillel also chose the negative expression of this idea rather than say, “love your neighbor as yourself.”

Why would that be? As Telushkin notes, “Love your neighbor as yourself is a very high-minded ideal, and yet it’s hard to know what it actually is....Hillel offers a different definition because it’s something that you can more immediately incorporate into your life.”

The story with standing on one foot is a very famous story about Hillel, who, unlike his contemporary Shammai, takes up the challenge. Hillel's summary of the Torah is, "What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn" (Shab. 31a). And as said earlier/in other discussions, what Hiliel says draws a striking resemblance to Jesus’ words: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets ( Luke 10:26-28/Luke 10 , Mark 12:30-32 Mark 12 ) - and this is also similar toPaul’s teaching: “For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." ( Galatians 5:13-15 /Galatians 5:5-7 & Romans 13:7-9 ).

Hillel's summary of the Torah shows that the most important thing for the Jews (as well as the Gentiles) is to act ethically and morally. This can relate to the necessity of doing tzedakah, because it literally means "justice" or "righteousness." Rabbi Telushkin says that Hillel did not say, "love your neighbor as you love yourself" because that is much harder to follow. For people may not always love themselves, or maybe your neighbor doesn't love the same things you do. Rather, by putting the commandment in the negative form, Telushkin argues that Hillel made this something more people could follow. What Hillel said is something that can be easy for us to put into practice in many small ways, and thereby make the world a better place for all to live in:)

Hope the information helps in your journey. Shalom :)
 
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Torah Lishmah

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First, Yeshua did not follow any religious leader.
That is simply not true. All Torah observant Jews who practice Judaism "follow religious leaders." Without exception.

Why would he need anyone's opinion on scripture when he is the word incarnate?
No comment on the word incarnate hocus-pocus, I'm almost positive I would break the rules somehow. But surely Jesus learned Torah.

(Luke 2:46) And it came about, that after three days they found him in the courts of the Beit HaMikdash, sitting in the midst of the Rabbis, both listening to them and asking them questions.
(Luke 2:52) And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and in stature, gaining favor both with other people and with G-d.

Hillel is just one in a line of pharisees that built off the work of others.
You make that sound so trivial...lol
Hillel was the head of the Sanhedrin with the title of "Nasi" (Prince). He was the most notable Torah scholar in all of Israel, and the Talmud records that Jewish halakha was according to his interpretation. He was much more than "just one in a line of Pharisees that built off the work of others." His theology was critical for the shaping of the Oral Torah and Judaism as it is today. Also, Hillel and Shammai, who each founded their own Torah academies, were the two Sages that formed the last of the five Zuggot, or pairs who transmitted the Oral Tradition to successive generations over a period of about 2 centuries (ca. 175 B.C.-A.D. 10).

What makes you think that Yochanan was a pharisee? He was a priest, not a rabbi.
First of all, I never said he was a Pharisee. Secondly, what makes you think priests cannot be Pharisees? lol

In my opinion, he was most likely an Essene, who abhorred the Saduccean Temple cult. Hence, his priestly duties were performed in, and around the Jordan.
 
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Torah Lishmah

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Gxg (G²);62743977 said:
Just caught this ( as I saw the thread was brought up from earlier this year) - and IMHO, misunderstanding I think is occurring - as I was not of the mindset that Hillel was a follower of Yeshua. What was said was that there were others within the school of Hiliel (i.e. his teachings, philosophies, ideals) who later came to follow Yeshua in light of how Yeshua taught many things predominately in line with the camp of Hiliel - as opposed to the school of Shammai.
Okay, I'm following you now, and I couldn't agree more.
 
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ContraMundum

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That is simply not true. All Torah observant Jews who practice Judaism "follow religious leaders." Without exception.

The vast majority of Christian scholars agree that Jesus knew the teachings of the sages.

In my opinion, he was most likely an Essene, who abhorred the Saduccean Temple cult. Hence, his priestly duties were performed in, and around the Jordan.

OK..maybe.
 
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Avodat

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That is simply not true. All Torah observant Jews who practice Judaism "follow religious leaders." Without exception.


No comment on the word incarnate hocus-pocus, I'm almost positive I would break the rules somehow. But surely Jesus learned Torah.

(Luke 2:46) And it came about, that after three days they found him in the courts of the Beit HaMikdash, sitting in the midst of the Rabbis, both listening to them and asking them questions.
(Luke 2:52) And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and in stature, gaining favor both with other people and with G-d.


You make that sound so trivial...lol
Hillel was the head of the Sanhedrin with the title of "Nasi" (Prince). He was the most notable Torah scholar in all of Israel, and the Talmud records that Jewish halakha was according to his interpretation. He was much more than "just one in a line of Pharisees that built off the work of others." His theology was critical for the shaping of the Oral Torah and Judaism as it is today. Also, Hillel and Shammai, who each founded their own Torah academies, were the two Sages that formed the last of the five Zuggot, or pairs who transmitted the Oral Tradition to successive generations over a period of about 2 centuries (ca. 175 B.C.-A.D. 10).


First of all, I never said he was a Pharisee. Secondly, what makes you think priests cannot be Pharisees? lol

In my opinion, he was most likely an Essene, who abhorred the Saduccean Temple cult. Hence, his priestly duties were performed in, and around the Jordan.

Such wording is not allowed on here - see the CF rules. You may disagree but may not ridicule or insult Christianity etc.
 
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annier

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Exactly. Which is why I asked. Had Hillel been alive in Jesus' day, Jesus would have been the student, and Hillel the teacher. As appalling as it may seem to almost all Christians, Jesus was indeed a Pharisee.
Jesus first disciples were from John's ministry as a prophet yes. I do not understand how you get that John was a Pharisee at all, considering these verses alone. And there are more of course, but these are most salient considering your comments.
John seems to have been recognized by all as Prophet which the Pharisees disagreed with. So how would any conclude John or Christ were Pharisees?
Lu 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Mt 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

He was definitely a disciple of Yochanan during "the silent years" just prior to his ministry.
His disciples seemed to have continued John's baptism of repentance as disciples of Christ don't you think?
Jo 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
 
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Torah Lishmah

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Jesus first disciples were from John's ministry as a prophet yes. I do not understand how you get that John was a Pharisee at all.
For the second time now, I never once said Yochanan was a Pharisee. In fact, I gave my opinion in post #332 that he was most likely an Essene. I also gave my opinion in post #329 that Jesus was a Pharisee.

Let me try to clarify my position a bit, since there seems to be some confusion regarding it. Are you aware of the fact that there was a sharp division amongst the Pharisees of Jesus' day? There were those Pharisees who agreed with Beit Shammai, and those who agreed with Beit Hillel. The students of these two Torah academies quarreled bitterly. I believe that Jesus was a Beit Hillel Pharisee, and when you read of him quarreling with other Pharisees in the Gospel accounts, those are Beit Shammai Pharisees. There is much evidence for this view, not only in the Talmud, but the New Testament as well. If someone wishes to know more about this, or read an accurate text concerning the beliefs of the Pharisees, then I would strongly suggest reading and studying Talmud. Hope this helps.
 
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pat34lee

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You make that sound so trivial...lol
Hillel was the head of the Sanhedrin with the title of "Nasi" (Prince). He was the most notable Torah scholar in all of Israel, and the Talmud records that Jewish halakha was according to his interpretation. He was much more than "just one in a line of Pharisees that built off the work of others." His theology was critical for the shaping of the Oral Torah and Judaism as it is today. Also, Hillel and Shammai, who each founded their own Torah academies, were the two Sages that formed the last of the five Zuggot, or pairs who transmitted the Oral Tradition to successive generations over a period of about 2 centuries (ca. 175 B.C.-A.D. 10).

I won't get into most of the original post because there is no way to prove them one way or the other. Yeshua learned as he grew, and I'll leave it at that.

Hillel may have been a great teacher and Torah scholar. There were many of those. Some on their merit and some self-proclaimed, like rav Akiva, who first started to compile the traditions into written form. As to how far back the traditions go, it was not long before the Hasmoneon revolt. They certainly did not appear before the Babylonian captivity.

You know that almost every part of the statement in your signature is wrong, don't you?
 
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annier

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I'm still here, lurking...enjoying checking in with you guys and reading posts. I am definitely growing and Adonai is showing me many things. It is absolutely stunning the depth of what He will show you when you are humble and seek His Face.

So, now, I'm curious. I've seen people in various places purpose that there are commandments specific for the Gentiles. Can any of you shed light on this for me? Thanks in advance.
They are in the Babylonian Talmud
Sanhedrin folio 56a and b
 
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