Commandments for Gentiles?

[annier]

The point I'm want to make is, if you believe in a 'doctrine' then live it. But just because one doesn't believe, practice that doctrine, it doesn't mean they live outside the Kingdom of God.

Woo hoo macher

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The point I'm want to make is, if you believe in a 'doctrine' then live it. But just because one doesn't believe, practice that doctrine, it doesn't mean they live outside the Kingdom of God.

A lot of it reminds me of others who claimed women were going to Hell/outside of the kingdom because they actually got corrected by others daring to tell them "You're not justified in having 2 wifes simply because the Mosaic Code allows you to do so"...

 

[Yahudim]

The point I'm want to make is, if you believe in a 'doctrine' then live it. But just because one doesn't believe, practice that doctrine, it doesn't mean they live outside the Kingdom of God.

I'm sorry. You must have misunderstood. This is all fine and well as long as the doctrine is not prohibited by the SoP. I never said that they live outside of the Kingdom, only that they were posting outside of the forum rules.

Be well.

 

[mishkan]

I gotta say, your fascination with the Mishkan David Messianic Discussion Forums is intriguing. Thanks for all the plugs. I think it is a great place, as well.

 

[Yahudim]

And all others who've disagreed with you have also made requests -from Contra to Shimshon to Qnts2 and several others - respecting differing styles/focusing on those you agree with in regards to Torah. That was the consensus - as it concerns love for others/respect.

Thus far, you didn't honor it - or the SoP with the focus on judging others in their observance - and the same goes with Christians, alongside things said at MD that most are aware of...and that you've yet to change alongside others.

Again, if you can't even change on that regards and you're still trying to justify where you've already done the same - counter to the request you're making (with all the same people keeping quiet/celebrating it because it agreed - as seen in #1, #2, #3, #4, #18 #25, #43 , #44 , #45 , #47 and #48 ), there's really little room to talk. Unless, of course, you're going to delete all postings made over 1,000 words and have everyone of your postings at below a paragraph.

You've already been given the opportunity, T - and as several others have noted, love is not tolerating that which is not necessary. Others show love by giving people freedom/space - and the same is the case here. No more, no less...and nothing different than what many Messianic Jews/Messianic Gentiles have said for a long time.

That said, it's rather baseless talking about people being afraid when it has already been the case (as it was before with others you did the same with ) that you've avoided scripture 10 times already - whereas others have covered each thing you wrote point for point.

Frankly, if you're really concerned with dealing with what was said, one can deal with it as it is - and stop making excuses for why you cannot. I doubt it, of course...as you have made plain that you don't read what was said by myself and have specified such before - whether it be here or on MD (and anyone choosing to PM can easily get the direct references for direct evidence). Why you act as if nothing was said is a bit fanciful - but now's your chance to show you were really concerned for others.

• Start by erasing what you've said toward ContraMundum.
• Start by apologizing to him for the ways he and several others were misrepresented (as he already noted here/on MD - #326, #330/ #470 )
• Start by honoring the OP in learning how to agree to disagree /agreeably and stop judging everyone not observing as you do as "Non Observant"- as well as choosing to address postings rather than personal commentary on posters...or claiming things of Christians/Christianity which are not held central and other Christians have noted.

You're choice (and anything less is disengenuous posting )....but if you can't do that, it's rather hollow talking on anything since one is simply spinning for the sake of argument...and most are aware of that

Thanks for the reply. Sorry G, but I'm having a hard time taking you seriously. You won't address our differences on the OP, a point at time. Instead you just want to lecture, make demands and link to a bunch of irrelevant posts. Seems pretty evasive.

You know, I'm not the only one asking that you stop derailing the OP with the long-winded lectures. The personal attacks are wearisome too, but I forgive you. Let's start over.

Other people have asked for definitive statements. And doing a quick count, there are more than a few that disagree with your position and your tactics. Are you saying that you won't answer them because I won't submit to your demands? That seems a little strange.

Let's agree to play nice, OK? Your posts seems to get a little thin when someone asks a direct question - like let's talk about all the gentiles Messiah Y'shua dealt with. That would be a good place to start. Let's do that.

Gentiles and Messiah anyone? You believe that Messiah did not require Torah observance of the Gentiles. Which was the first Gentile that Messiah taught? Anyone?

 

[yedida]

As said before, it's cute what you note..but Ad-homimen is not a good way of addressing scripture or truth - or nor does it show ability to really focus on the topic/content of what's said rather than a poster (as you tend to do when unable to address something squarely).

Minus the fact that you already know personal discussion of posters ISN'T allowed (and thus, you should know better than to attempt it), there are no excuses on your parts in light of numerous others easily able to comprehend things quickly/not even thinking "verbose" as an issue of being unable to understand - but where you tend to lean makes a difference in whether you get something...or make room to avoid owing up to it.

Claiming "verbose" doesn't equate to addressing the scriptures (and it wouldn't hold a candle in the time of Yeshua, who often did the same when spole and so did the scribes). It also doesn't hold any type of weight in light of your repeated examples. Much has already been shared briefly and short - but again, the fact that one didn't see fit to note that shows (IMHO) over-generalization. The same thing was attempted by yourself in another thread (as seen here in #26 ) when you claimed you try to be brief, bring up one example if you deem it necessary to show, someone who can say it better than yourself, the position you wish to make.

And as said to you before, you've already had multiple times you've brought up numerous examples/quoted entire articles in a string of postings - your thread on "Messianic History" being one amongst many other examples of that. In brief example:
More was done the same in #2 when discussing the lost tribes - and again, plenty others. Thus again, you protest too much if talking on "verbose" but keeping quiet where you gave allowance for yourself elsewhere.

And for each/every instance you've suddenly become able to read multiple other verbose postings if they agree with your views, IMHO, it is a matter of inaccurate scales - something the Lord said he did not like

Actually a little common sense could be applied here. It doesn't take pages and pages of words to simply answer a question. On the other hand Vis was creating a linking group of posts about history - that is going to be lengthy. She wasn't answering a simple question with these lengthy posts. Big difference Easy/Gxg

 

[Yahudim]

OK, here is the first Gentile that I found in scripture to which Messiah Y'shua ministered.

Mat 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
Mat 8:6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
Mat 8:7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
Mat 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

What jumps out at you?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I gotta say, your fascination with the Mishkan David Messianic Discussion Forums is intriguing. Thanks for all the plugs. I think it is a great place, as well.

Truthfully, it's not really fascinating..and I'm not really fascinated with anymore than others are that've noted some of the same things on it - from Yonah to xDenax, Chavak to Guardian to Contra and a host of others (mods included). It's not really a plug in since most people avoid it except for the sake of being aware of what's actually said counter to what's claimed here - knowing why people do as they do - and as said before, it doesn't really do any credit in pretense when being on a Christian forum as a self-proclaimed Non-Christian trying to do things counter to Christianity - in the name of Messianic Judaism even when most of Messianic Judaism has long disagreed with the ideologies. Same thing tried to be done at other places such as CARM - and it was noted there as well.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

OK, here is the first Gentile that I found in scripture to which Messiah Y'shua ministered.What jumps out at you?

Already noted it - and as said before, no need discussing anything further until that much can be addressed. We're done until you can do otherwise since it's a waste of time

Thanks for the reply. Sorry G, but I'm having a hard time taking you seriously.

Not really surprising, as accuracy can be hard to take seriously when there's not concern for it in certain areas Of course, as other posters have noted the same to you before on multiple points, not really surprising you still are unable to get it now.

Essentially, one cannot address scripture as it is - and knows they've been caught/pretense is futile. Contra and Shimshon amongst others nailed it..

You won't address our differences on the OP

Incorrect - as it was already touched, regardless of whether or not you choose to read (and too many rep points from multiple people as well as PM to say that it was not there). Bottom line - if you cannot deal with scripture, don't make arguments as to why you cannot - for others deal with what you say when it's at lenght point for point. THere's no logical reason as to why you cannot do the same.

Seriously, it'd behoove you to come back when you actually have a better argument that isn't basically ad-hominem/red herring that does nothing to deal with the subject.

Instead you just want to lecture

Humorus, as you're doing just that by telling others what you want them to do - in addition to all the rants on others you feel are not Torah Observant enough. Again, it's a matter of "Do as I say, Not as I do" - and it gets old rather quick. Come back next time..

You know, I'm not the only one asking that you stop derailing the OP with the long-winded lectures

Cute - but no cigar, seeing that the original post was dealt with -

So, now, I'm curious. I've seen people in various places purpose that there are commandments specific for the Gentiles. Can any of you shed light on this for me? Thanks in advance.

That was the question -what commandments were specifically made for Gentiles - and it was already was touched on by myself way earlier in the thread ( #62 #64, #127 , #129 , #131 #132 , #135 #138 #140 #144 #145 #147 #149 , #194 , #195 #230 #232 and #250 ). At that point, after sharing thoughts directly in line with the OP on the state Gentiles had in relation to the Torah, you chose to take it up upon yourself to claim I was advocating one should not try to keep Torah when I said that we're not to be self-righteous in judging the Observancves of others/priding ourselves or forgetful of where Yeshua/Torah made plain certain laws were made specifically for Gentiles rather than all - as seen in #252.

I addressed that mischaracterization at several points ( #256 #259 , #261, #285 #287 ). I also addressed it in regards to others who sought to share the same thing ( #269/#275 #288 #291 ) ...and yet from there, multiple postings (needless as they were) came up on discussing EVERYTHING ELSE except the OP question and what others said in regards to it ( #266 ) - with the specific focus being on either ignoring what was said or seeking to focus on a style of posting yourself/others claimed to not like even when it was already done by yourself/others on repeated occassions (as noted in #271, #292 #295 #297 ).

At each successive point, the focus was "Well I and some others don't like the style and that means you should stop" - despite the history of the forum where dozens of others have always/consistently disagreed with your assessment/those you generally tend to agree with. They had no issue interacting and have often said it was rather easy/understandable - and (no surprise) they also have a tendency to read through material as it is because they actually care to listen rather having history of always being at odds with others due to disagreements.

Rather than simply recognizing others don't share your sentiments and focusing on interacting with those you did, what essentially happened was trying to push the matter and force others to do as you wish - and then complaining as if it's the entire forum supporting your desire....and that is inconsistent with history. This is also directly connected to the reality of how much justification has occurred at each point on why you and others liked/preferred it but wanted others to do different each not difficult to document ( #276/ #300 #308 ). Essentially, it comes off as a control issue where one cannot show basic charity by allowing others to operate in the style they/others prefer while you're given the same freedom.

Thus, one needs to be accurate before making accusation. ..

For thus far, counter to the rules, you've devoted a number of postings talking on posting style rather than dealing with posts/content - with the only real basis being that you disagree and thus say ANYTHING other than dealing with what was said. Moreover, it's disingenious on trying to claim anyone is long-winded when you've already done enough of that yourself all over the forum and were noted on it by several. It's hard to take you seriously when you cannot square with that basic reality.

The personal attacks are wearisome

Truthfully, it's always a trip when one does something that they say they're tired of - as you've already done that on multiple postings within this thread alone, as well as others. Not anyone's fault that you don't like others calling you out for where you tend to not be in agreement with many of the things you claim of others or act as if you've not done - but again, it happens. Forgiveness was already given on the issue for yourself - but prayer is still needed for recognizing what the Lord has said on the matter and what you may not be willing to actually deal with .

Let's start

No need where there's no repentance over what you ALREADY said (both here and MD) that was deemed misrepresentation (and slander, to be frank) by several - and justification over it/judging the observances of others counter to the OP rather than showing real change by ceasing to do so. Seriously, until you can change where you don't deal with others accurately, there's no real need acting as if it's different now (Titus 3:1-9, II Timothy 2, etc.) That's basic.

Other people have asked for definitive statements. And doing a quick count, there are more than a few that disagree with your position and your tactics.

And a few multiple times have made clear where the same people (always the usual 5 in total) already have been inconsistent with some of the claims they make on a myriad of occassions. Contra already called out the tatic of saying one thing here and another elsewhere as you've done and claiming to want to see others address things (as if interested) when you've already shared directly "I don't care what they say" or "I just think they're teaching false." It is no issue posting that up if need be - although it's embarrasing enough to see that defended/acted as if it's non-existence and then trying to essentially feign/act as if "I just want healthy interaction."

Who are you kidding?

The same thing is seen all the time in Youth Ministry when someone has a bad tendency to say false things on others, doesn't like when others disagree with them/call them out, cusses someone out ....and then, after talking to buds/organizing on all the ways they either want to prove someone wrong or hate hearing what they have to say, they come back with a smile/asking questions and then try to act "shocked"/"offended" that people didn't entertain it - as if they were somehow "innocent" and just trying to learn. That's never a good stance or strategy to take - for it smacks of insincerity ...and frankly, it's reminiscent of trying to play coy in a negative menner ( Proverbs 12:2, Proverbs 14:17, Mark 12:14-16/ Mark 12 etc.) -

When several other people say something was already stated and the same person (or persons) refuses to acknowledge it, it's not a matter of avoiding anything as much as it's a matter of a failure to listen/own up to it.

Not dealing with that, dude.

That is a matter of pretense (1 Kings 14:5-7 / 1 Kings 14)..and it's not something that fools anyone. More than a few have noted where the main few (5 total) voicing thoughts have also failed to give definitive statements on many issues - especially as it concerns being honest and making plain whether or not they are Christians/willing to say so in order to post on a Christian Forum /debate instead of trying to make opportunity to focus on others when people don't agree with there views. There are already - more than a few - who've noted it to be an issue with everyone of the people you claim...so no need for more pretense/trying to act as if you said anything really substantial.

Are you saying that you won't answer them because I won't submit to your demands? That seems a little strange. Let's agree to play nice, OK? Your posts seems to get a little thin when someone asks a direct question - like let's talk about all the gentiles Messiah Y'shua dealt with. That would be a good place to start. Let's do that.

Until you deal with what was given - just as others have noted to you before when it was done to them - there's nothing to deal with. For that'd be a matter of making excuses - and you should be above that rather than making room for it. Direct questions were already answered - although you've had more than a couple you've avoided already - and you tend to focus on the person asking them when it happens/try to make it out as if it was somehow oft to do so. There has already been talk on all the Gentiles Messiah Yeshua has dealt with - and others have already discussed it. Whether or not you're able to square with that is inconsequential to what has already happened. Argument via personal incredulity ( involving someone simply saysing, “I don’t believe that” and leaves the rebuttal there rather than addressing what's present) doesn't deal with anything, T.

Gentiles and Messiah anyone? You believe that Messiah did not require Torah observance of the Gentiles. Which was the first Gentile that Messiah taught? Anyone?

Again, already addressed that false accusation as have others when it comes to categories for Gentiles/noting those specific areas that were geared for Gentiles alone rather claiming they were to do all as the Hebrews did (as it's a logical fallacy of argument via ridicule when trying to reduce an argument to simplistic proportions/fighting against that as if that's what anyone has said). That doesn't fool anyone - and thus, one would be wise to stop making slothful generalizations and learn to deal accurately with what someone says rather than argue against what they've never said. One of the reasons why many do not take you seriously when it comes to claims of Torah Observance.

Either stop focusing on posters and deal with what's said in posting - or move on

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Actually a little common sense could be applied here. It doesn't take pages and pages of words to simply answer a question

Common sense (as others have noted), it doesn't take pages and pages of excuses to see that the same logic has not been applied when others answered questions with pages and pages - and you cheeered it on. Denying that is not dealing with history - and as said before, it is a matter of blantant partiality which has been noted by several. The same goes for where simple questions were already answered short - and several times, you had to be corrected because you were quick to speak rather than listen. It's not rocket science, y.

. On the other hand Vis was creating a linking group of posts about history

- that is going to be lengthy. She wasn't answering a simple question with these lengthy posts. Big difference Easy/Gxg

Again - another excuse, seeing that the same has been done before and you were quick to say "That's too long!!! Just give us your thoughts"....and to deny that would be to not be honest on basic history. The same thing goes for every conversation where a topic came from and several other posters you've generally agreed with made LENGTHY postings - with you celebrating it and showing no problem in ability with jumping in. It's illogical to say you suddenly became unable to do so when it happened to be with people you've already shown to have an axe to grind.

If denying it, all it takes is a basic search on the CF Search Engine to note that - and if asked, it's not a problem given all collective times that has occurred. Double standards are never godly, y..

 

[anisavta]

 

[Gxg (G²)]

My sentiments exactly

 

[Lulav]

You cannot make someone pay attention to something that he or she does not want to notice.

aka

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

 

[Gxg (G²)]

You cannot make someone pay attention to something that he or she does not want to notice.

aka

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

Amen. A mirror would perhaps be beneficial for yourself on that one - paticularly with Paul/other things which other Messianic Jews have often noted (Contra Mundum being one of them as a Jewish believer and Avodat, although a Messianic Gentile, who has pointed that out). Assuming others are not actively searching for something isn't always the case when any accusation comes out -as some things were never issues to begin with.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"

 

[Tishri1]

Mod hat- ok folks we are taking a break here for a while

When we reopen for business please stay on topic and try not to make personal accusations and disrupt the thread away from its topic

Thank you .)

 

[Tishri1]

Closing

 

[yedida]

Rigtheous judgement (as John 7 notes) isn't the same as the kind of judgement Yeshua noted in Matthew 7 when it came to inconsistent judging - as in applying one standard to others while a differing one to yourself. That again is the issue behind judging other servants, claiming you're superior than them in one area/need them to be like you (even though you make allowances in other areas ) and condoning hypocrisy.

Yeshua was not forbidding judgment completely anymore than the Torah did - but He did make a point on what happens when you judge based on partiality/inaccuracy and said that's something the Lord hated. made that apparent when He then said, "For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you" (Matthew 7:2). Basically, the Lord is saying we should not judge others with a measure of judgment we would not want for ourselves. should note that Jesus did not forbid judging altogether. In the illustration of the mote and beam, one should note that He said we should take care of self first and then take care of our brother. After we have honestly examined ourselves, it is then acceptable to note the fault of another. From this context - if read in its entirety - we can see that what Jesus was forbidding was unrighteous judgment, not all judging. In fact, we find that on another occasion Jesus said, "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment" (John 7:24) . Yeshua neither forbade nor exhorted His disciples to get involved in making judgments, but clearly taught that whatever judgments they did make had to be righteous judgments; their judgment was to be neither hypocritical nor unrighteous. But what is "righteous judgment?" If we are called upon to make judgments or if we are in situations where judgment is demanded, how is it to be done so it meets the definition of "righteous"? When we are called upon by the circumstances of any given situation to make a judgment about spiritual matters, the judgment we make cannot be based on our own standards. Personal opinion has no part in spiritual matters and all opinion is equally useless. The standard by which we will be judged is the words of Yeshua (John 12:47,48). A policemen who pulls you over cannot write you a ticket because he personally thought you should get one; he speaks and acts by the authority of the laws of the land in which he lives and works; in the same sense, we cannot impose our personal judgments on others, but must speak "as one who speaks oracles of God" (I Peter 4:11).

Moreover, we cannot make inconsistent judgments or judge with partiality; by that, I mean we cannot judge one more strictly than another when both are guilty of the same error. In order for judgment to be called "righteous," it must, of necessity, be fair and just. Of course, circumstances must be considered, but fairness must be the basic foundation of all judgment. Brethren who rightly condemn those who teach error must be willing to condemn their friends who teach error, too. When we apply a harsher judgment on one because he is not in our 'circle' of friends or judge another more leniently because he is, then we have judged with unrighteous ( hypocritical ) judgment.

Furthermore, if we must judge, we should judge with mercy, for "judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy" (James 2:13) - and MERCY was something Yeshua often talked on at various points ( Hosea 6:5-7 Matthew 9:12-14 / Matthew 9/ Matthew 12:6-8/ Matthew 12 ). This goes back to the earlier statement of Yeshua that reminds us we will be judged with the same measure of judgment we have used on others (cf. Matthew 7:2). Although I cannot speak for you, but I am positive that we will all desire mercy when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

And all of that was solved in the issue of love for others.




Obediance also required understanding of all that God said on the matter. One of the basic reasons behind why the entire Torah/God's instructions were read before the Hebrews collectively - out loud and at every point (as with Deuteronomy 27-32 and Nehemiah 8-12 - so that no one would be without excuse nor would others condemn others for not obeying a part of it that was never given to them to begin with since the Lord took that seriously)

Someone looking at Leviticus 11 on Food laws (as a Gentile) and saying "Well I'm obeying it and God said all had to keep it!!!!" doesn't equate to observing Torah as God commanded...as He also noted directly where the Gentile in the land were allowed to eat foods the Hebrews could not - and He made clear later on how he related to Gentiles differently in many places than the Jews.
I never said it did, it is you that wants to keep hammering that it doesn't. But where did He specifically say gentiles (gentile believers that is) could eat foods that Hebrews couldn't? I'd like to see these specific passages. Thank you in advance.

That has already been noted on several occasions - if actually interested. Hiliel is one of the most prominent and there are various others outside of that as well. Contra has shared more on the issue (here and on MD) - and he'd be a good source to talk to. Qnts2 as well.

You were the one who mentioned "many of Judaism" noted the separation value so I'm asking you. Can you not come up with any references? That's okay, I'll live, just admit you don't have any sources for your statement of "many of Judaism" have also noted it, not a major problem. Again, thanks in advance for the references.

 

[yedida]

And yet you ignore that His message was to the Jews FIRST. It is not like He did not command it for the goyim. In fact He did just that (instruct that His Torah be taken to the nations) after giving the Jews a chance to accept His ministry FIRST.

What did Messiah instruct His talmidim to do?
After He preached to the Jews?
After He was rejected by the Jews?
After He was persecuted by the Jews?
After He was turned over to the Romans for execution by the Jews?
After He was buried?
After He was resurrected?
After He appeared to His talmidim?
After He appeared to the multitudes?

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you...

Y'shua IS Torah. He was the epitome of Torah observant. That is what He taught His talmidim to be - correctly observant. So explain to me why would He instruct His talmidim to instruct 'all nations' (goyim) to observe 'all things' that He commanded (Torah)?
Because Torah was optional for goyim?
Or because all those that believe on Him and follow Torah become adopted into His family and grafted into Israel - just like His talmidim taught?

There you go. You said it all right there!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

You were the one who mentioned "many of Judaism" noted the separation value so I'm asking you. Can you not come up with any references? .That's okay, I'll live, just admit you don't have any sources for your statement of "many of Judaism" have also noted it, not a major problem.

"Many of Judaism" was noted in what has been shared before on other discussions - and as Hililel was one of the main ones with a very large following/school that had scribes/leaders under him..many who followed Yeshua later ( John 7:49-51 /John 12:38 /John 12:40 )and taught things echoed in his teaching (just as Yeshua/Christ echoed Hiliel), it was why I asked directly if you investigated him at all. Have you done so? Whether or not you've done so is an indicator in whether you're really wanting addressment - or wanting to do more than what you're willing to do on a basic level. And if you've not taken time to even research Hiliel's school as a first step, one will assume there's little concern on actually addressing what was said in Judaism by other rabbis on Yeshua. It's a very basic thing to do if having serious concern on the issue and wanting real study - so as said before, please show concern in dealing with the small things first ..and then we'll go from there in-depth since it will be confirmed you're actually concerned. That much has been done by others multiple times - and for someone of your intelligence, I'm certain you are capable of doing the same

I never said it did, it is you that wants to keep hammering that it doesn't. But where did He specifically say gentiles (gentile believers that is) could eat foods that Hebrews couldn't? I'd like to see these specific passages. Thank you in advance

One, the post was to Lulav. Not you. And thus, there was no need responding as if anyone was speaking to you in the first place when it came to the issue of food...and thus, sadly, it seems you're hammering on something that was never a real concern of others.

Two, since you spoke as if I was addressing you, I will do so here: IMHO, It is historically inconsistent in claiming you never said that at least your attemps to obey what you could was a matter of showing that you were obeying as God commanded - especially whenever conversations occurred where others were contrasted with yourself as being "less obedient" because they didn't something needed to be followed simply because it was noted in the Mosaic Torah.

Not all instances have been like that since many were simply sharing your heart in striving what you found in God's LAw - which many (myself) have appreciated ...but there are some cases that happened where there was a bit of comparison to others/saying they didn't "hit the mark." I don't care to judge someone else's observance.....since we're all at differing levels - but when it does happen in thinking we earn approval/show we're "more thankful" than others for what God has done because of where we strive in certain areas more so, that's an issue (IMHO). And sadly, there are numerous instances that occurred on your part - and if necessary, I will go back/collectively get all instances where you noted to others...both regulars and newcomers...that no one could keep the Law perfectly (When they questioned you) but you said at least you were striving to keep it due to the belief you had of God saying ALL - be it Jew or Gentile - had to keep it. This is not an isolated situation, y...as it has occurred for years.

And for some quick examples, quotes:

We cannot obey all of the Noahide laws today for the same reason we cannot obey all of the 613 of Torah - different government(s) that people live under.

Just because we cannot obey some of the commandments does not give us license to disobey those that we can be obedient to.

Originally Posted by yedida
Everybody keeps saying that it is impossible to observe the Instructions that God gave for right living. But not one person has bothered to name even one Law that was difficult to obey.

For the last 5 years I've been, I guess, a Messianic Gentile (I usually say I am trying to follow 1st century fulfilled Judaism). There is much that cannot be observed today but I think most of us MGs try as best we can.

...I've been very fortunate to have found 2 shuls that have been nearby my residences and also the one online. Through these 3 places I've been in the company of about 200 people, Jewish and Gentile, and I don't think a one of them is playing "dress-up" or trying to be something that they are not. Everyone has been very earnest in their endeavors to follow Hashem's word. I'll grant you that at times we gentiles may be a little over zealous and look absolutely foolish - but it's been from a desire to learn and a desire to not offend our Jewish brethren.
We do it not to gain salvation but because we are saved, not to gain favor but because we are favored.

Matthew 5:17-19 states it plainly with little latitude for misunderstanding, it's a matter of obedience, not of salvation:

"Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete.
Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened.
So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven." (CJB)
But it also is more than preference or tradition. It's scripture.

You don't understand how being obedient has anything to do with whether or not you love God? Strange. I thought obedience was one of the biggies when you loved someone. Oh well, live and learn, I guess?

God's laws remain for His People. If we claim sonship then the Father has rulings and disciplinary actions. I don't even rule out circumcision as a later act of obedience. And all know that an obedient child is a very pleasing child.

Reverse your story for mine. I grew up in traditional mainstream Christianity. When I returned to the Lord 8-9yrs ago, Christianity was nothing new to me. But I remembered what caused me to become closed to it some 10 years earlier and didn't want to walk down the same path. So I opened up the Bible and read it for myself, all the way through, several times. In the process of doing that something jumped out at me, something I had never been taught before, something I had never even heard before - Hashem gave instructions to His people at Sinai and those instructions were for everyone who would call themselves by His name. And that is why I follow Torah today, it was something Hashem called me to do, no one told me this. In fact, just the opposite is about all I had ever heard and am still hearing - but I'm not hearing that when I read God's word! So I follow and obey.
If, when the judgment day comes and He tells me I could have enjoyed bacon and eggs for breakfast and coconut shrimp for dinner every day of my life - so be it. At least I won't hear, "Why did you read and hear over and over again and still refused to obey?" There's no condemnation in obedience (even if it's not necessary (yeah, right!!)) but there is condemnation in blatant, willful disobedience.

More was discussed in the thread entitled Who believes this to be true: The Torah is not for Gentiles - where discussion occurred on what it means to obey the Law of God accurately and how interpretation makes a big difference.

As said before, for many it has always been an issue of attempting to do what can be done - as opposed to focusing (as others have noted) on what you or I were specifically given to due according to Christ /the example of the early Body of Believers who had a New Covenant/Brit Chadasha and moving from there - for we are not to start in the Torah, find whatever they did and then say "That is what happened then and it will be that way forever" - but rather, as the Early Jewish body of believers did, we are to see what the Lord instructs to do in the example of Yeshua...and then go from there. It's not a lack of appreciation for the Law to see it as such - but rather, it's a matter of finding out how to apply it properly...and regardless of where we all stand, the reality is ultimately on how we can live our lives to the Glory of God. Messianic Jew/Rabbi Asher Intrater did a wonderful job of seeking to cover that in his series "Living to Honor God"

Living to Honor God - Part 1 ​

For in everything that we do, it should be on living to glorify Him on a minute-to-minute basis. And Instead of questioning every circumstance, we are simply to ask, "How can I bring glory to God?" regardless of the situation ( 1 Corinthians 10:30- ), and in doing so, live a life of faith.

Colossians 3:17
And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Colossians 3:16-18 / Colossians 3
​

I appreciate the fact that you desire to do that - and I hope you can see where others want the same even when they don't see eye-to-eye with you.

Three, on your question about passages on Gentiles/Food, it was already noted earlier where the Tanak showed many places where Gentiles were allowed to eat foods that the Hebrews could not. Whether one wishes to ever tackle that or not is another issue - but it is what it is...and when one chooses not to see it, no amount of handing it out repeatedly will ever convince. I say that due to how the passages have been given and you've noted directly that you don't care to read...and thus, I don't care to rehash it.

Sincerly, if wanting me to address you, I have already done so repeatedly - and truthfully, I am at the point that I am not really concerned with the issue any further. For you have already asked the issue before - and it was addressed, from Genesis 9:1-4 to Acts 15 to Deuteronomy 14:21 when it came to meat -for Deuteronomy 14:21 is one of the main examples of what it is that is noted in the Gentiles/foreigners within Israel being given differing laws..as the text states plainly, "Do not eat anything you find already dead. You may give it to the foreigner residing in any of your towns, and they may eat it, or you may sell it to any other foreigner. But you are a people holy to the LORD your God. Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk." And more on the context of the scripture was discussed directly with you when you/others - be it here or elsewhere - attempted to challenge the matter before and it was tackled (as noted earlier in the thread in #228 ..and in previous dialouges in #276 #75 , #69, #64, #1 #134 , and #146 amongst many others ).

 

[Tishri1]

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