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Is it even possible and how?

JRSut1000

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It is always a relief to find other Torah Observant believers in Y'shua, but I wonder why are we such a tiny minority in Christianity? And why is it when we try to use the Scriptures to show that yes, Torah is for all God's people (through Messiah Y'shua), that almost the whole of Christianity argues it with a passion saying that grace pretty much means Torah is no longer meaningful, especially for Gentiles? I know I used to be that way, but after hearing the truth and asking many questions, I finally came to understand and it makes very good sense. Why not for others who have studied both sides of the spectrum? I sound like I'm ranting, but my main question is: how do we reach the whole of Christianity that does not yet embrace the beauty of Torah?
 

ChavaK

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You might want to post this in the main portion of the forum....things here sometimes
get overlooked.
But I also have a question....why do you think this is necessary?
how do we reach the whole of Christianity that does not yet embrace the beauty of Torah?
 
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dayhiker

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I don't keep the Torah. Why, I'm a Gentile and its pretty clear to me that the purity laws of the Torah were to separate the Gentiles from Israel. Paul also tells us that Jesus is the end of the law and 6 times says we are under grace not the law.

Another way I look at it. There are 2 commandments. Love God and love people. I have no clue how not eating lobsta has anything to do with whither or not I love God.
 
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yedida

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*BUMP!* No replies or thoughts?

These subforums do tend to get overlooked quite often.

Just like you didn't see at first, others you would love to share in your new found joy will have to be "called" into this life as well. If they just started observing Torah lifestyle all on their own, I don't think it would last very long.

Just my own personal belief, but we have those who were called into the life by being born into it and then there are the others, mostly Gentiles, who also have been "called" to walk Torah, either as believers in Yeshua or as B'nei Noach; either one, they are called, it's not something they just pulled out of the air to attempt to do. ;)
 
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yedida

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I don't keep the Torah. Why, I'm a Gentile and its pretty clear to me that the purity laws of the Torah were to separate the Gentiles from Israel. Paul also tells us that Jesus is the end of the law and 6 times says we are under grace not the law.

Another way I look at it. There are 2 commandments. Love God and love people. I have no clue how not eating lobsta has anything to do with whither or not I love God.

You don't understand how being obedient has anything to do with whether or not you love God? Strange. I thought obedience was one of the biggies when you loved someone. Oh well, live and learn, I guess?
 
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anisavta

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I don't keep the Torah. Why, I'm a Gentile and its pretty clear to me that the purity laws of the Torah were to separate the Gentiles from Israel. Paul also tells us that Jesus is the end of the law and 6 times says we are under grace not the law.

Another way I look at it. There are 2 commandments. Love God and love people. I have no clue how not eating lobsta has anything to do with whither or not I love God.
I imagine Dayhiker is one of those hit and run posters - not willing to stay for the fallout - we'll see.
I just don't understand this entitlement that is rampant in the church. G~d's instructions (that's what Torah means FYI) are not for me because I'm - fill in the blank. So does G~d waft into people's dreams and tell them they are His special treasure and they are free to be? Interesting that in families, whose parents tell one child they have to follow the rules, but their brother or sister doesn't are called - uh - dysfunctional and we send them to councilors.
Imagine Isaiah in Chapter 6 standing before the Holy One and saying, I saw the L~rd high and lifted up and holy and told Him I was under grace so I don't have to do what You tell me to do. Seems to me there is more to loving G~d and people than trying to prove you're entitled because some Greek Gentile Christian dude named Jesus told you you didn't have to follow the rules.
And of course you don't know how "eating lobsta" has anything to do with loving G~d... not if you can't fear Him.
 
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yedida

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I imagine Dayhiker is one of those hit and run posters - not willing to stay for the fallout - we'll see.
I just don't understand this entitlement that is rampant in the church. G~d's instructions (that's what Torah means FYI) are not for me because I'm - fill in the blank. So does G~d waft into people's dreams and tell them they are His special treasure and they are free to be? Interesting that in families, whose parents tell one child they have to follow the rules, but their brother or sister doesn't are called - uh - dysfunctional and we send them to councilors.
Imagine Isaiah in Chapter 6 standing before the Holy One and saying, I saw the L~rd high and lifted up and holy and told Him I was under grace so I don't have to do what You tell me to do. Seems to me there is more to loving G~d and people than trying to prove you're entitled because some Greek Gentile Christian dude named Jesus told you you didn't have to follow the rules.
And of course you don't know how "eating lobsta" has anything to do with loving G~d... not if you can't fear Him.

Yeah, you're probably right. He's kind of all over the place, latest congregational areas being Spiritfilled/Charismatic & Pentecostal/CoG. Probably won't see him again. He had his important opinion posted. That'll be good enough for him, I'll bet.
 
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Temptinfates

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Wow. I don't try to change all of christendom. That's too big for me. I talk to individuals and explain it to them in a way that makes sense. I have this one guy that calls me and he is actually witnessing to his friends with his limited knowledge (still learning) of the Torah, etc..
To me, Gentiles were supposed to follow Torah. Everyone was supposed to. But, Gentile nations in the beginning had their own gods they worshipped along with their practices. Ruth is a good idea of this. She was a gentile pagan priestess that came to believe in the one true G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. She had to change to be accepted by her new society and by Hashem. In a way, this was how she found salvation. But, she couldn't hold onto and practice things she was taught in Moab. She had to ..separate.. herself from those things.
Separation from such things shows Hashem that you honor and love him. This is part of Torah. The Mosaic law was not meant for one race of people, but, for any that truly desired Hashem. This is hard to swallow for someone in most churches that I have met. It truly isn't keeping Torah that is important, but the desire to follow it and the one that gave it that is important....but keeping it is important , too.
I hear people talk of the law as if it is evil, cursed, and can't be kept. This can't be. It is pure as the one who gave it. It has it's purpose(s). It is very good. First law , don't eat from tree,,,,and the enemy said "Has G-d said?..." the law not to eat from the tree was pure..afterwards.....G-d's law can't be kept...same mentality I find out there all the time. Anyone could join the jews---but, they had to leave things behind, and most were unwilling.
So, Yeshua came to Israel. He desired that they would turn back to G-d with their whole heart. Gentiles came to believe in him, but lost the message that they were to return to the Father and obey the Torah from the heart. Instaed, they (not all) teach the son did away with the Torah and keeping anything Jewish. They act as if the Father and son have two different agendas and doctrines. This cannot be. They are one. They agree with each other in all things.

How can you pray in the name and authority of the Father if you blatantly refuse to do the things he asks? If you do those things he has had written that he detests? If you call his Law evil? That his son did away with it---so you have an excuse to be lawless? I see it all out there with some of the folks I meet. But, those that truly want to know? I just tell them. I just show them. I ask them "Do you want to do what man says you should do--or what G-d says to do". It really is a personal choice--and I am not responsible for which way they go...but, I just tell them--when they ask or the subject comes up. I don't go out on some crusade, lol. It's not my job in life. Some are sincere and call me with questions..which I try to answer..depending on what is asked. It's not hard.
I asked this one guy that was going to open up a truckstop ministry why they teach people on a 4th grade level..he said if they don't, they won't come..jeez, milk and honey..no meat. See, I talk to christian ministers too. And even when they know their doctrine is wrong, they will not separate themselves from it. how do you fix that? Many of these folks are like a "Ruth" that still wants to be a moabite priestess-I hope that example is ok. I meet so many spiritually weak people every day. After I talk to them, it seems like they pull their bootstraps up and start walking their walk. I even have people call me and tell me they were cussing me because they went to grocery store and saw those pork ribs----and it's my fault, lol. It's ok. They are seeing the scriptures in a new light. What is written without what people tell them it says..they are starting their own journey into showing my Abba father that they love him. And, they don't need me to hold their hand. Soon they will fly. Soon, perhaps a flock against the nightsky..but, it starts with telling one.
Temptinfates
 
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yedida

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Wow. I don't try to change all of christendom. That's too big for me. I talk to individuals and explain it to them in a way that makes sense. I have this one guy that calls me and he is actually witnessing to his friends with his limited knowledge (still learning) of the Torah, etc..
To me, Gentiles were supposed to follow Torah. Everyone was supposed to. But, Gentile nations in the beginning had their own gods they worshipped along with their practices. Ruth is a good idea of this. She was a gentile pagan priestess that came to believe in the one true G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. She had to change to be accepted by her new society and by Hashem. In a way, this was how she found salvation. But, she couldn't hold onto and practice things she was taught in Moab. She had to ..separate.. herself from those things.
Separation from such things shows Hashem that you honor and love him. This is part of Torah. The Mosaic law was not meant for one race of people, but, for any that truly desired Hashem. This is hard to swallow for someone in most churches that I have met. It truly isn't keeping Torah that is important, but the desire to follow it and the one that gave it that is important....but keeping it is important , too.
I hear people talk of the law as if it is evil, cursed, and can't be kept. This can't be. It is pure as the one who gave it. It has it's purpose(s). It is very good. First law , don't eat from tree,,,,and the enemy said "Has G-d said?..." the law not to eat from the tree was pure..afterwards.....G-d's law can't be kept...same mentality I find out there all the time. Anyone could join the jews---but, they had to leave things behind, and most were unwilling.
So, Yeshua came to Israel. He desired that they would turn back to G-d with their whole heart. Gentiles came to believe in him, but lost the message that they were to return to the Father and obey the Torah from the heart. Instaed, they (not all) teach the son did away with the Torah and keeping anything Jewish. They act as if the Father and son have two different agendas and doctrines. This cannot be. They are one. They agree with each other in all things.

How can you pray in the name and authority of the Father if you blatantly refuse to do the things he asks? If you do those things he has had written that he detests? If you call his Law evil? That his son did away with it---so you have an excuse to be lawless? I see it all out there with some of the folks I meet. But, those that truly want to know? I just tell them. I just show them. I ask them "Do you want to do what man says you should do--or what G-d says to do". It really is a personal choice--and I am not responsible for which way they go...but, I just tell them--when they ask or the subject comes up. I don't go out on some crusade, lol. It's not my job in life. Some are sincere and call me with questions..which I try to answer..depending on what is asked. It's not hard.
I asked this one guy that was going to open up a truckstop ministry why they teach people on a 4th grade level..he said if they don't, they won't come..jeez, milk and honey..no meat. See, I talk to christian ministers too. And even when they know their doctrine is wrong, they will not separate themselves from it. how do you fix that? Many of these folks are like a "Ruth" that still wants to be a moabite priestess-I hope that example is ok. I meet so many spiritually weak people every day. After I talk to them, it seems like they pull their bootstraps up and start walking their walk. I even have people call me and tell me they were cussing me because they went to grocery store and saw those pork ribs----and it's my fault, lol. It's ok. They are seeing the scriptures in a new light. What is written without what people tell them it says..they are starting their own journey into showing my Abba father that they love him. And, they don't need me to hold their hand. Soon they will fly. Soon, perhaps a flock against the nightsky..but, it starts with telling one.
Temptinfates

Ruth did indeed leave her people to make Naomi's people her people and Naomi's God her God.
A better example might be of the rich young ruler who was told to sell what he has, give to the poor and follow Yeshua and he went away very saddened because he could not.
 
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Lulav

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It is always a relief to find other Torah Observant believers in Y'shua, but I wonder why are we such a tiny minority in Christianity? And why is it when we try to use the Scriptures to show that yes, Torah is for all God's people (through Messiah Y'shua), that almost the whole of Christianity argues it with a passion saying that grace pretty much means Torah is no longer meaningful, especially for Gentiles? I know I used to be that way, but after hearing the truth and asking many questions, I finally came to understand and it makes very good sense. Why not for others who have studied both sides of the spectrum? I sound like I'm ranting, but my main question is: how do we reach the whole of Christianity that does not yet embrace the beauty of Torah?

Sorry I didn't see this until now.

I understand your frustration, but I've decided after a long hard look that we are but a remnant, that the 'whole of Christianity' is happy in the place they are in. Those who aren't are the seekers that will find their way, it is not hidden if one wants to search the matter out. I don't think we are supposed to reach the whole of Christianity.
 
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Tishri1

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Hi guys Im here to say I understand where you all are coming from, untill my family grew tired of MJ and dropped it(although they still dont eat pork/shellfish or work on Shabbat ect and will join me at Synagogue occasionally) We were following Torah closer to what I see in here....the thing that sent them packing and me therefore pulling back to keep the family together was that Torah rules seemed to be never ending....there was simplicity if you decided to go there(I think thats what your seeing in the other subforum, examples of folks doing things more simply)but if you really dig into Torah study, there are sooooo many forbidden things in MJ and in my mixed family(still mixed today as I didnt completely walk away like they did) you have to resist walking ahead of the family into Torah as they simply wont go there with you and unless you want to break up the nest you cant do all the things Torah leads to in our society(or forbids in our society)

In my family my desire to be pure as rain, made them feel dirty all over ...it was a very devastating thing

I had to pull back


I do think that those intact families have a better chance being Torah observant and going all the way they can with it because they all do agree to walk that way and can develop all the Torah atmosphere they want to do so.

It may not have been for my family but Im happy for those here who do make it work to what ever degree you have made it work too:)

Note to consider: when in dialogue with other MJs who are more grace centered think about me and my family and consider how some of the words used might make them feel dirty...sometimes helping them know this is your walk/calling and not forcing anything on them will actually help them accept your message more:thumbsup:
 
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Lulav

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Good words Tish!

I'm sorry to hear that your family was splitting like this. I am assuming you meant your husband and children?

We are all responsible for our own walk with the L-RD at the end of the day. Silent witness is the best I think.

As far as on here, it's a lot tougher since it is not visual and words can sometimes be taken the wrong way. Well, many times!

I think what you said it true, it sometimes gets to be overwhelming, but shouldn't be given up on , rather, back off and regroup.

:hug: I'm sorry to hear that this has caused division in your family. I too have experienced it and I think it happens everywhere. Like all relationships a happy balance is tricky to find, but worth working towards. :)
 
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Emet979

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My experience with Christians started with my family, parents and sister, they will not listen to me. I tried 'once' and only got one chance to share with them something I found exciting in the beginning. What came back at me was surprising. I was totally caught off guard. I was accused by my dad of being "holier than thou" because I was endeavoring to keep the Torah. My dad really hasn't talked to me about anything Bible since. I found out that day, that my enthusiasms was not going to be shared by my family.

But like my parents, Christians as a whole do not even want to follow a simple change of diet, keeping Kosher, because it is written in the Torah to them the cursed Law and they are 'freed' from it. They do not want to listen because of hardheartedness and about 2000+ yrs of lies in the Church.

My husband thankfully saw what I did, however, we are not perfect in our walk, we keep kosher but to be honest that is about as far as we go. Hubby tries not to work on Shabbat as much as possible when it comes to working on the weekends. I try and keep Shabbat by not cooking, cleaning and so on. That does not work out every Shabbat.
I have to admit we are lazy when it comes to the observing the Holy Days. I never am prepared and that is my fault. I think the lack of a fellowship here in our town has something to do with it. I think if I had a place to be responsible too that I might be more observant.

Those that are seeking will find those of us that have found Torah and will in His Time come to the same conclusions as we have. Their walk will not be like yours or mine but they will follow the God of the Bible the best they can. So we have to give an answer to those that ask us and do the best we can to lead them to the Torah and Yeshua.
Okay, I think I have rambled enough. lolol :)
 
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JRSut1000

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That's not a ramble at all, very much appreciated. My family is Christian but not T.O. nor do they wish to be. They feel that if we say we want to keep it, we have to keep ALL of it and can't mess up. 'If you break even one command, you break em all' and 'The commandments show us that we just cant keep them'. Those seem to be the biggest arguments I hear and it's frustrating.

As far as the feasts, we don't belong to a messianic fellowship but a Vineyard small group and we invite them to join us in our home to observe the feasts. Usually we have a meal, a small teaching, and fellowship and worship. It started out VERY slow the first couple years, but we actually had about 15 people in our house for Passover. It's a great way to share fellowhsip with our brethren and to introduce them to the beauty of Torah.
 
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