Commandments for Gentiles?

[macher]

Thank you, Vissy.
I'm not gonna argue this point beyond this one post, but under the view of most "Christians'" interpretation of the Pauliine letters, all of the Jewish people prior to those living beyond Yeshua's resurrection fall under the category of "unsaved." They're just cast to the devil, no ifs, ands or buts.
I'm not willing to do that. If Abraham received "grace" for where he was at in his belief system, and Moses, and David, and Jeremiah, why not those 1000 years ago, those today?
That kind of a line cannot be drawn, especially when it is Hashem Himself that has placed the blinders on His people to begin with. It is in His hands alone how it is to all play out, but we do have His promise that "all Israel shall be saved." I'm happy to leave it at that.

Let's not get away from the Gospel.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God
is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

The basic method of salvation was the same beforehand, just
with less details available on exactly how God was going to accomplish it. Trust/or or commitment to God was still required, and the
good news was that God had promised delieverance for his people Israel.
This deliverance was available to everyone who repented and trusted in God even not knowing all the details.

There where Jews who did understand
trust in God and the good news in this sense, so when they are preached to, the book of Acts characterizes it like this:


Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the
Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who,
speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

The idea here is that they needed to heed the additional knowledge about Yeshua, but they were not doing so from a position of being unsaved. They were just obeying the prophet passagage in Deut. 18.

So of course the good news when Yeshua preached was about God's
deliverance that was promised, but the details of his personal fulfillment were still clouded some in the nature of prophecy. Only when the prophecy was fulfilled did God require it of Israel.

There's nothing more and nothing less.

 

[mercy1061]

Salvation comes at many levels. The unbelievers have many encounters with God stepping in, and about the only time they admit to it, is when they acknowledge Him as their Lord. The Lord saved them from...... goes their story... then comes the acknowledgement and conversion story which is another level of salvation... on and on in our daily lives, our Lord saves us from ourselves and others who wish to do us harm.... In the last day, the day of judgment, will come the salvation for all eternity... and that we have to leave in His hands to decide... As He has many who know not His name but are saved in His books because He knows them. Many who claim to know Him will be cast out, and He will say to them "I never knew you". So let us not take His spot and try to judge by our ways and leave it in His hands on how He will judge it in His Way.

It has always been about the "kingdom of G-D"; the disciples understood that Yeshua would establish his kingdom on earth:

In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea 2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

Perhaps a better way of saying this for clarity; the "kingdom of heaven" being established on earth is at stake if Israel do not repent. We hear this warning echoed in Yesha's prayer:

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:
“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.



The disciples wished to know when Yeshua would establish or "restore" his kingdom on earth:

Acts 1
6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

Yeshua did not answer their question but said:

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.


Now although Israel has been established as a sovreign state in the middle east, her form of government is not a monarchy or kingdom like ancient England. The US in all her beauty and power has a government like modern day Israel; the US has fallen from "royal grace". Her mother England still has the royal family in power; much like ancient Israel. Israel may never return to her former glory. Nevertheless Israel is still a super powerful nation in the middle east.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread had a clean up. Folks, when someone is obviously in violation of the rules, please do not quote and respond to them - just report them. Responding to them only encourages them.

 

[Catherineanne]

Thank you, Vissy.
I'm not gonna argue this point beyond this one post, but under the view of most "Christians'" interpretation of the Pauliine letters, all of the Jewish people prior to those living beyond Yeshua's resurrection fall under the category of "unsaved." They're just cast to the devil, no ifs, ands or buts.
I'm not willing to do that. If Abraham received "grace" for where he was at in his belief system, and Moses, and David, and Jeremiah, why not those 1000 years ago, those today?
That kind of a line cannot be drawn, especially when it is Hashem Himself that has placed the blinders on His people to begin with. It is in His hands alone how it is to all play out, but we do have His promise that "all Israel shall be saved." I'm happy to leave it at that.

I cannot comment on Messianic belief, because I am not Messianic, but I can say that this is not my view, nor that of any Christian I know. It is perhaps the view of some evangelicals, but that does not make it a majority opinion.

I have no problem with the view that Jewish people receive grace for their belief system, as you put it. Why would that not be the case? Any God who chooses a race, remains faithful to them for several hundreds of years and then gives up on them, let alone casting them to the devil, would not be much of a God, imo. I do not think the blessed Paul intended any such interpretation of his words.

Jewish people are the older brothers of our faith, according to Pope John Paul II. We are family; Jews by birth, Christians by adoption, but we are all family.

 

[yedida]

I cannot comment on Messianic belief, because I am not Messianic, but I can say that this is not my view, nor that of any Christian I know. It is perhaps the view of some evangelicals, but that does not make it a majority opinion.

I have no problem with the view that Jewish people receive grace for their belief system, as you put it. Why would that not be the case? Any God who chooses a race, remains faithful to them for several hundreds of years and then gives up on them, let alone casting them to the devil, would not be much of a God, imo. I do not think the blessed Paul intended any such interpretation of his words.

Jewish people are the older brothers of our faith, according to Pope John Paul II. We are family; Jews by birth, Christians by adoption, but we are all family.

Thank you for your response. all the different churches I was a part of so many decades ago believed the way I stated it and that's one reason I didn't stay with them. I agree that kind of God and Father is no god and no father I care to know. I eventually left Christianity and Jesus far behind me. I never fully left the Father, though and it was He or His Spirit that called me back to Him and to His Torah and Messiah. The picture is so much clearer here.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Let's not get away from the Gospel.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God
is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

The basic method of salvation was the same beforehand, just
with less details available on exactly how God was going to accomplish it. Trust/or or commitment to God was still required, and the
good news was that God had promised delieverance for his people Israel.
This deliverance was available to everyone who repented and trusted in God even not knowing all the details.

There where Jews who did understand
trust in God and the good news in this sense, so when they are preached to, the book of Acts characterizes it like this:


Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the
Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who,
speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

The idea here is that they needed to heed the additional knowledge about Yeshua, but they were not doing so from a position of being unsaved. They were just obeying the prophet passagage in Deut. 18.

So of course the good news when Yeshua preached was about God's
deliverance that was promised, but the details of his personal fulfillment were still clouded some in the nature of prophecy. Only when the prophecy was fulfilled did God require it of Israel.

There's nothing more and nothing less.

I think there does need to be a clear addressment of what Yeshua often noted when it came to pointing out that he did not endorse the mindset that anyone who was Jewish was simply lost/eventually going to make it in the end. For the Lord did seem to say rather directly that anyone choosing to reject Him would not be saved - and although many Jewish individuals may sincerly not follow the Lord due to confusion and not understanding, many reject him outright due to not wanting Him in their lives at all....and for those Jewish believers witnessing, it's a big deal for them to note that their brothers/sisters will not be saved so long as they reject the Lord.

I tend to side with Dr.Michael Brown's stance, which is focused on

Michael Brown - Israel and the End Times Revival (1 of 6)
Michael Brown - Israel and the End Times Revival (2 of 6)
Michael Brown - Israel and the End Times Revival (3 of 6)
Michael Brown - Israel and the End Times Revival (4 of 6)
Michael Brown - Israel and the End Times Revival (5 of 6)
Michael Brown - Israel and the End Times Revival (6 of 6)

Michael Brown - Jewish Salvation?
The Real Kosher Jesus - Michael L. Brown, Ph.D. - Host, Dr. Freda Crews

What Christ said (in addition to the prophets) is to take precedence...and what they advocated was conditional acceptance, be it for Jew or Gentiles. The only other option is universalism saying all Jews will be saved regardless under the claim that they are Israel--and that's not Biblical when it comes to the multiple times the Lord made distinction between those who are physical descendants of Israel only and those who are believers/truly living up to what it means to be Israel (the Remnant of Israel/Jews), with those in that camp being who will be saved/always in relationship with the Lord.

One would have to ignore PLAINLY what Christ said and what John noted in I John 3 alongside Paul in II Corinthians 10-11 when it came to the concept of others being servants of the enemy. And as the apostle John notes to His Jewish audience on what it means to truly belong to the Lord:

1 John 3:8


He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

​

1 John 3:9-24
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The Imperative of Love
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.
​

Revelation 3:9 already mentions that there were those Jews of the SYNAGOUGE of Satan based on their actions......and Yeshua made clear that the enemy fathered Children in John 8.....and the same goes for what John mentioned in I John 3 when it came to noting the actions of Cain/his being of the Devil because of who he reflected spiritually. Many assume that noting how physical descendants of Israel don't act like Israel/belong to the Lord equates to Replacement Theology.....but as it concerns Replacement THeology, it is not "Replacement THeology" for one to say that those not acting according to how the Lord said to act would not...and COULD NOT..be considered as "God's People" under the OT. There are far too many Jews who aren't even believers in Yeshua...and yet even they have been able to note that not everything with the name "Israel" is such.

Again, the issue of Cain being of the Evil one goes right alongside what the Lord promised in Genesis 3:15 when it came to the Lord promising Satan that he would place emitity between his seed and that of the womans, whom the Messiah would come. Cain was of the evil one spiritually, regardless of his being born physically as a man.....and Cain, though severely punished for murdering his brother, had no sense of repentance. This theme of others reflecting the enemy's character continued throughout Genesis, as it concerns Genesis 4:19-26 when it came to violence being on the rise and two distinct groups appearing: (1) those who show indifference to sin and evil (like the devil) and (2) those who call on the name of the Lord (the descendants of Seth, Genesis 4:26). In I John 3:15, John clearly echoed Jesus's teaching that whoever hates another person is a murderer at heart (Matthew 5:21-22)....and with Cain, his jealous anger drove him to murder.....and that made him of the devil, seeing how Jesus noted in John 8:44-45 that the enemy was a murderer from the beginning.

ABraham was the Jews SPIRITUAL ancestor (if they followed him), with the flesh being one aspect of that....just as Adam was mankind's spiritual ancestor and all inherited his spiritual nature from him. Others could either be connected to ABraham solely in terms of ethnic heritage----or they could have FULLNESS by having the spiritual mindset that Abraham did, as Paul noted when it came to Abraham being the FATHER of our faith (Romans 4, Galatians 3:6-14, Galatians 3:26-29, Galatians 4, etc). The seed of Abraham was one that was ultimately one by FAITH......and everything else was secondary. ANd because they refused to do as their physical ancestor did, they were deemed by Christ to not belong to Him. Those who did do as Abraham did were truly considered "Children of Abraham" in the full sense..



For more:

• Can Jewish People Be Saved Without Believing in Messiah ... - Ask Dr. Brown
• Messianic Jewish Scholar Dr. Michael L. Brown Affirms Conditional Salvation ...

There are many others who do not adhere to the evil of Replacement Theology and yet have noted the reality of where even people of Israel have been deemed by the Lord to be of the enemy side that will perish apart from Messiah. To see for oneself, one can go online/check out an article under the name of "The Naked Bible >> The Election of Israel and Its Meaning, Part 1" and "The Naked Bible >> Romans 5:12 and Universalism: Applying My Take on Romans 5:12 to the Problem" ().

Apart from that, some others that you may be interested in---as it concerns the variety of quasi-universalism when it comes to the issue of "All Israel will saved" and none being able to not be called "children of the enemy":

• "All Israel Will Be Saved" ()

• "The Other Gospel of John Hagee: CHRISTIAN ZIONISM AND ETHNIC SALVATION"

 

[yedida]

Hashem put the blinders in place but He also promised that He would remove them. So He is only going to remove them for a few? To think that all those that lived prior to the removal are going to be condemned for having blinders on that He placed on them? - I can't reconcile that at all. It doesn't compute. I believe the blinders were a form of His grace toward His people for that very reason - it was death to reject His prophet(s) and He doesn't will that any should perish. So for a time, blinders, then they will be removed and ALL Israel shall be saved. Both Isaiah and Paul say this. Doesn't ALL mean ALL? Does it mean some, a few, only those alive at a specific moment? For all my years, ALL has always meant ALL.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hashem put the blinders in place but He also promised that He would remove them. So He is only going to remove them for a few? To think that all those that lived prior to the removal are going to be condemned for having blinders on that He placed on them? - I can't reconcile that at all. .

That's actually a view that was addressed by the early body of Jewish believers when it came to noting the fact that all of the Patriarchs/those who came BEFORE Yeshua were looking to Him in faith since He was the summation - but those who were presented with Him in his time and rejected him lost their share of eternal life - consistent with what the Lord himself did throughout the OT - from Saul to Jeroboam (I Kings 12-13) and many others who rejected the Lord and He in turn rejected them. THere was never any view of "All the Hebrews will be saved" and the Lord spoke against that repeatedly...and for those who did not know of Christ, the Lord often noted that some things were overlooked until the time of Christ being revealed.

Romans 1-3 is rather direct on the matter on how NO man is with excuse in saying that they do not know God since he has written law/truth on their hearts - and they will be judged based on what they know. That said, Yeshua was very clear on what He expected of His people - and made sure no one didn't know what he was about:

Repent or Perish

Luke 13:21
13 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”6............
...........
22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”
​

And as it concerns trusting in Him and who He is...

John 3:14-16


14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[a] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[b]
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
John 3:35-36 /John 3

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:23-25

John 6:27
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
John 6:26-28



Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Acts 17:29-31
​

John 8 is another text that speaks directly on the issue...

Even Paul himself, who wrote Romans 11 and "All Israel will be saved" had a context - and it was never about Universalism in claiming all Jewish people will be saved. For as He noted repeatedly, those Jewish believers who rejected Messiah did not consider themselves worthy of Eternal Life

Acts 13:47
When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:

“‘I have made you[a] a light for the Gentiles,
that you[b] may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’[c]”

​

It doesn't compute. I believe the blinders were a form of His grace toward His people for that very reason - it was death to reject His prophet(s) and He doesn't will that any should perish. So for a time, blinders, then they will be removed and ALL Israel shall be saved. Both Isaiah and Paul say this. Doesn't ALL mean ALL? Does it mean some, a few, only those alive at a specific moment? For all my years, ALL has always meant AL

According to Paul, despite the religious zeal of the Jewish people, they failed to understand the gift of God’s righteousness and therefore “his heart’s desire and prayer to God for [them was] that they may be saved” (Romans 10:1).

Even Jewish people who are zealous for God (Romans 10:2) and are pursuing a law of righteousness (9:31; 10:3) are in need of salvation through Yeshua.

As for the notion that Jewish people can be saved by observing the Mosaic covenant, Paul wrote:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin (Romans 3:19-20).

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! (Galatians 2:20)

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” (Galatians 3:10-11)
​

That is why, to the end of his life, Paul reached out to his people: He longed to see them saved. And that is why he was willing to suffer so much persecution from his own people, coming back again and again to share the Good News (see, e.g., 2 Corinthians 11:24; Acts 21-22).
It is also important to remember that, in Jesus, God made a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (see Jeremiah 31:31-34; Luke 22:19-20; Hebrews 8:7-12), and, “By calling this covenant ‘new,’ he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear” (Hebrews 8:13). So, Israel’s way to God is through the new covenant rather than the Mosaic covenant, a point made emphatically clear with the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70, a destruction that has lasted to this day.

Jesus made it clear that He was the fulfillment of the Torah and Prophets (see Matthew 5:17-19), while the disciples recognized Him to be the one of whom Moses and the prophets spoke (see John 1:45; Acts 3:24-26). After His resurrection, the Lord said to His disciples, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms” (Luke 24:44), commissioning them to preach “repentance and forgiveness of sins . . . in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem” (Luke 24:47).

Jesus told His fellow Jews that if they knew the Father, they would know Him also, and those who rejected Him rejected the Father as well (see Luke 10:16; John 5:36-47; cf. also 9:39-41). In keeping with this, John wrote that “he who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life,” and that “no one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also” (1 John 5:12; 2:23).

Paul had “great sorrow and unceasing anguish” in his heart when seeing how so many of his people were not saved (see Romans 9:2), including those whom he said were “zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge” (Romans 10:2). In fact, it was for those very people that he prayed (see Romans 10:1), “Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness” (Romans 10:3).

That said - when understanding these necessary backgrounds/context - one can better understand the "ALL" of who Paul was talking about when it comes to Romans 11.

IMHO, It is difficult to say which mystery Paul is talking about when he says “this” mystery in Romans 11. He could be talking about the olive tree and God’s “kind and stern” actions toward his people. Or “this” could refer to what he is about to say regarding Israel’s hardening but eventually acceptance. In some ways, I think it mostly points forward to what Paul is explains later– and that's God’s plan to save Israel. That is, after all, what Paul is trying to explain all through chapters 9-11. The apostle Paul says God has planned the salvation of Israel in three steps – 1) hardening of some of the Jews, 2) acceptance of some Gentiles, 3) all Israel will be saved. At this point we have some issues that need to be wrestled with. When Paul writes that “all Israel will be saved” we either have to define Israel by a certain set of people in order to make that consistent with all Paul has said about the necessity of righteousness to come by faith in Christ.... or we have to assume all Jews will eventually put their faith in Christ, or that God is going to save them no matter what (which is not consistent with what Paul has written to this point in Romans).

Some people have wanted to say Paul is talking about “Spiritual Israel” here but that just doesn’t bear out through the context at all points...for it seems clear that Paul is talking about ethnic Jews here. Thus, either they all will eventually put their faith in Christ or Paul is defining Israel in a slightly different way than meaning every single person who is a direct descendent of Abraham.

It is beyond dispute that Paul and Jesus agree that not all ethnic Jews are actually children of Abraham (see John 8:39-41 & Romans 4:12).

Moreover, it has always been the case that God has called his people “Israel” when some Jews were not included in that number. Two places we see this in the OT are the concept of the remnant and also through blessings and curses in Deuteronomy..and for more on that, one can see the first paragraph in this post on Galatians 3:10-14. In Deuteronomy blessings and curses are repeatedly laid out before God’s people. The gist of it is, if you follow God and keep his commandments you will do well in the land. But if you double cross God and go your own way, you will be under a curse. This curse was basically considered a removal of the blessings of God and of covenant status with God.

Essentially, that basically would put an ethnic Jew out of “Israel” and into the same status as the Gentiles (who were also thought to be cursed and devoid of God’s blessings). Others may disagree, but my contention here when Paul says “all Israel will be saved” is that he is talking about “true Israelites” (as Jesus refered to Nathaniel as in John 1:47)…those who obeyed the law and were led by that law, as it was intended to do, to Jesus Christ. This does not mean every single Jew who ever lived will be saved and it does not mean that every single Jew will somehow get a second chance to believe in Jesus at the last day. It probably means faithful Jews will turn to Christ and be redeemed and that in some way, shape or form, there may be more of that to come than we realize.

Romans 11:26 could also mean that the physical Israeli State of today (or the future)/All Israelites who are NOT saved currently will later go through a great time of trial which will lead to much destruction--and yet those who remain will collectively turn to Yeshua together (just as it seems they collectively go AGAINST Yeshua currently aggressively in disbelief)...and when all the Jews left colletively repent, the Lord will save them---thus fulfilling the prophesy that "All Israel will be saved."

 

[visionary]

....[/B][/I][/U] [/COLOR]
[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]Revelation 3:9 already mentions that there were those Jews of the SYNAGOGUE of Satan based on their actions......[/LIST]

Since it is really questionable regarding the makings of the Greek NT..aka[from the original Hebrew which is also debated but possible] I would like to present the thought that because of the aversion to all things Jewish that could have also been happening at the same time the greek translation was made... the translation maybe slanted .. as in all things good.. translate it "church".. if bad call it "synagogue"... when you read the new testament with all things as "synagogue" at any congregational gathering ... I believe it is better balanced in context of at the time of the original writing. Just saying... There is just something grating about it that I have never been able to put my finger on, but feel there is something fishy about how it happened. I pray that the Lord will bring forth the earliest NT that He has kept hidden, for just such an occasion when we are ready to receive, understand, and defend it.

Ok.. back to what you were saying.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Since it is really questionable regarding the makings of the Greek NT..aka[from the original Hebrew which is also debated but possible] I would like to present the thought that because of the aversion to all things Jewish that could have also been happening at the same time the greek translation was made... the translation maybe slanted .. as in all things good.. translate it "church".. if bad call it "synagogue"... when you read the new testament with all things as "synagogue" at any congregational gathering ... I believe it is better balanced in context of at the time of the original writing. Just saying... There is just something grating about it that I have never been able to put my finger on, but feel there is something fishy about how it happened.

I've heard of that view before in differing levels - specifically with something David Stern noted on the issue of translation (as shared before here in #207 )- although reading what was said in Judaism on the matter of idolatry/abandoning the Lord, it's hard to take issue with the concept of certain Jews being of the Synagouge of Satan. Even if it was the case that there was a translation concern, the concept itself isn't new - that those in the Jewish world who chose not to follow the Lord ended up lost.

The example of Balaam the Prophet comes immediately to mind ( as shared/discussed in #194

2 Peter 2:15
They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness.
2 Peter 2:14-16

Jude 1:11
Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.
Jude 1:10-12 / Jude 1
​

__________________

The Way of Balaam is one of someone who wants to get paid at any costs even when the Lord says no.....as he cursed the Israelites/was denied in doing so at the Word of the Lord (as he was a rouge prophet)---and when Baalam couldn't curse them via God, he taught King Balak (who offered A LOT of money) to seduce the Israelites through sexual immorality so that they'd open themselves up to being cursed. Although he didn't curse them technically by what he said (as the Lord forbid him from doing so/kept from it), he tried to find ways around the rules by getting at them indirectly so that he could get what he wanted

There was actually an excellent series I was blessed by that broke the issue down when it came to Balaam - alongside others in the book of Jude as it concerns apostasy (if choosing to right click here ). It's part of a 10 part series throughout the book of Jude.

In order:

• Jude Part 1
• Jude Part 2
• Jude Part 3
• Jude Part 4
• Jude Part 6
• Jude Part 7
• Jude Part 9
• Jude Part 10

A different perspective to consider is from Messianic Jew Jerry Golden, who seeks to explains more on the situation in Zionist state of Israel in this article from 31 Dec 2003. This article may be old but still pretty relevant, IMHO, when considering many of the ways that there have been darker aspects present in the history of the Israeli state and many influences that were never of the Lord...some of it involving imagery/symbolism in many sites all over the nation that are connected with FreeMasonry (and similar to what was discussed here ).

We know from scripture that there were times the Jewish people engaged in idolatry, which means they engaged in other religions, but they were still Jewish/children of Israel, who were being disobedient and considered as not truly living according to what God expected/demanded of Israel. Thus, they were Jewish ethnicty wise but not in practice when it came to God's commands---with the Lord mandating death for anyone dabbling in such or practicing the Occult amongst the children of Israel ( Leviticus 20:5-7 /Leviticus 20:26-27/Deuteronomy 18:10-12 , 2 Kings 21:5-7 , 2 Kings 23:23-252 /2 Chronicles 33:5-7 )...and seeing the amount of times where many of the Hebrews were outrighly involved in the Occult (King Saul seeking out a witch in 1 Samuel 28/1 Chronicles 10:12-14 and someone else bringing witches into the temple ), it doesn't seem difficult to say that those who didn't follow the Messiah and rebelled against him were deemed to be of the enemy.

The same dynamic would also apply to those who are Jewish (as in ethnically born ) and yet are willfully agnostics...such as how many of those in Israel are when it comes to them being both Jewis and agnostic or atheistic. There's also Jewish Kabbalists...or Jewish Marxists (much as Karl Marx was )..or again, Jews who happen to be involved in other things which the scriptures forbid when it came to the gods of other nations/their practices (i.e. divination, witchcraft, astrology, etc). A person who was Jewish did not cease being Jewish due to being involved in differing religions and the scriptures never declare such at any point. ..but they couldn't be described as being active children of God in reflecting who He was

Acts 13:6
They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus,
Acts 13:5-7
​

Luke 3:8
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.


John 8:39
“Abraham is our father,” they answered. “If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did.
John 8:38-40


Romans 9:8
In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
​

Romans 9:6–12
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel
​

 

[visionary]

I've heard of that view before in differing levels - specifically with something David Stern noted on the issue of translation (as shared before here in #207 )- although reading what was said in Judaism on the matter of idolatry/abandoning the Lord, it's hard to take issue with the concept of certain Jews being of the Synagouge of Satan. Even if it was the case that there was a translation concern, the concept itself isn't new - that those in the Jewish world who chose not to follow the Lord ended up lost.

The example of Balaam the Prophet comes immediately to mind ( as shared/discussed in #194

2 Peter 2:15
They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness.
2 Peter 2:14-16

Jude 1:11
Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.
Jude 1:10-12 / Jude 1
​

__________________

The Way of Balaam is one of someone who wants to get paid at any costs even when the Lord says no.....as he cursed the Israelites/was denied in doing so at the Word of the Lord (as he was a rouge prophet)---and when Baalam couldn't curse them via God, he taught King Balak (who offered A LOT of money) to seduce the Israelites through sexual immorality so that they'd open themselves up to being cursed. Although he didn't curse them technically by what he said (as the Lord forbid him from doing so/kept from it), he tried to find ways around the rules by getting at them indirectly so that he could get what he wanted

If you've not do so already, I'd really encourage you to check out the sermon from here earlier (if choosing to right click here ) on the series that really helped to explain the question you had It's part of a 10 part series throughout the book of Jude.

In order:

• Jude Part 1
• Jude Part 2
• Jude Part 3
• Jude Part 4
• Jude Part 6
• Jude Part 7
• Jude Part 9
• Jude Part 10

A different perspective to consider is from Messianic Jew Jerry Golden, who seeks to explains more on the situation in Zionist state of Israel in this article from 31 Dec 2003. This article may be old but still pretty relevant, IMHO, when considering many of the ways that there have been darker aspects present in the history of the Israeli state and many influences that were never of the Lord...some of it involving imagery/symbolism in many sites all over the nation that are connected with FreeMasonry (and similar to what was discussed here ).

We know from scripture that there were times the Jewish people engaged in idolatry, which means they engaged in other religions, but they were still Jewish/children of Israel, who were being disobedient and considered as not truly living according to what God expected/demanded of Israel. Thus, they were Jewish ethnicty wise but not in practice when it came to God's commands---with the Lord mandating death for anyone dabbling in such or practicing the Occult amongst the children of Israel ( Leviticus 20:5-7 /Leviticus 20:26-27/Deuteronomy 18:10-12 , 2 Kings 21:5-7 , 2 Kings 23:23-252 /2 Chronicles 33:5-7 )...and seeing the amount of times where many of the Hebrews were outrighly involved in the Occult (King Saul seeking out a witch in 1 Samuel 28/1 Chronicles 10:12-14 and someone else bringing witches into the temple ), it doesn't seem difficult to say that those who didn't follow the Messiah and rebelled against him were deemed to be of the enemy.

The same dynamic would also apply to those who are Jewish (as in ethnically born ) and yet are willfully agnostics...such as how many of those in Israel are when it comes to them being both Jewis and agnostic or atheistic. There's also Jewish Kabbalists...or Jewish Marxists (much as Karl Marx was )..or again, Jews who happen to be involved in other things which the scriptures forbid when it came to the gods of other nations/their practices (i.e. divination, witchcraft, astrology, etc). A person who was Jewish did not cease being Jewish due to being involved in differing religions and the scriptures never declare such at any point. ..but they couldn't be described as being active children of God in reflecting who He was

Acts 13:6
They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus,
Acts 13:5-7
​

Luke 3:8
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.


John 8:39
“Abraham is our father,” they answered. “If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did.
John 8:38-40


Romans 9:8
In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
​

Romans 9:6–12
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel
​

Bottom line is that we are all commanded to show God respect and love by keeping His commandments.

 

[yedida]

That's actually a view that was addressed by the early body of Jewish believers when it came to noting the fact that all of the Patriarchs/those who came BEFORE Yeshua were looking to Him in faith since He was the summation - but those who were presented with Him in his time and rejected him lost their share of eternal life - consistent with what the Lord himself did throughout the OT - from Saul to Jeroboam (I Kings 12-13) and many others who rejected the Lord and He in turn rejected them. THere was never any view of "All the Hebrews will be saved" and the Lord spoke against that repeatedly...and for those who did not know of Christ, the Lord often noted that some things were overlooked until the time of Christ being revealed.

Romans 1-3 is rather direct on the matter on how NO man is with excuse in saying that they do not know God since he has written law/truth on their hearts - and they will be judged based on what they know. That said, Yeshua was very clear on what He expected of His people - and made sure no one didn't know what he was about:

Repent or Perish

Luke 13:21
13 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”6............
...........
22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”
​

And as it concerns trusting in Him and who He is...

John 3:14-16


14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[a] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[b]
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
John 3:35-36 /John 3

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:23-25

John 6:27
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
John 6:26-28



Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Acts 17:29-31
​

John 8 is another text that speaks directly on the issue...

Even Paul himself, who wrote Romans 11 and "All Israel will be saved" had a context - and it was never about Universalism in claiming all Jewish people will be saved. For as He noted repeatedly, those Jewish believers who rejected Messiah did not consider themselves worthy of Eternal Life

Acts 13:47
When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:

“‘I have made you[a] a light for the Gentiles,
that you[b] may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’[c]”

​

According to Paul, despite the religious zeal of the Jewish people, they failed to understand the gift of God’s righteousness and therefore “his heart’s desire and prayer to God for [them was] that they may be saved” (Romans 10:1).

Even Jewish people who are zealous for God (Romans 10:2) and are pursuing a law of righteousness (9:31; 10:3) are in need of salvation through Yeshua.

As for the notion that Jewish people can be saved by observing the Mosaic covenant, Paul wrote:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin (Romans 3:19-20).

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! (Galatians 2:20)

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” (Galatians 3:10-11)
​

That is why, to the end of his life, Paul reached out to his people: He longed to see them saved. And that is why he was willing to suffer so much persecution from his own people, coming back again and again to share the Good News (see, e.g., 2 Corinthians 11:24; Acts 21-22).
It is also important to remember that, in Jesus, God made a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (see Jeremiah 31:31-34; Luke 22:19-20; Hebrews 8:7-12), and, “By calling this covenant ‘new,’ he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear” (Hebrews 8:13). So, Israel’s way to God is through the new covenant rather than the Mosaic covenant, a point made emphatically clear with the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70, a destruction that has lasted to this day.

Jesus made it clear that He was the fulfillment of the Torah and Prophets (see Matthew 5:17-19), while the disciples recognized Him to be the one of whom Moses and the prophets spoke (see John 1:45; Acts 3:24-26). After His resurrection, the Lord said to His disciples, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms” (Luke 24:44), commissioning them to preach “repentance and forgiveness of sins . . . in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem” (Luke 24:47).

Jesus told His fellow Jews that if they knew the Father, they would know Him also, and those who rejected Him rejected the Father as well (see Luke 10:16; John 5:36-47; cf. also 9:39-41). In keeping with this, John wrote that “he who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life,” and that “no one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also” (1 John 5:12; 2:23).

Paul had “great sorrow and unceasing anguish” in his heart when seeing how so many of his people were not saved (see Romans 9:2), including those whom he said were “zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge” (Romans 10:2). In fact, it was for those very people that he prayed (see Romans 10:1), “Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness” (Romans 10:3).

That said - when understanding these necessary backgrounds/context - one can better understand the "ALL" of who Paul was talking about when it comes to Romans 11.

IMHO, It is difficult to say which mystery Paul is talking about when he says “this” mystery in Romans 11. He could be talking about the olive tree and God’s “kind and stern” actions toward his people. Or “this” could refer to what he is about to say regarding Israel’s hardening but eventually acceptance. In some ways, I think it mostly points forward to what Paul is explains later– and that's God’s plan to save Israel. That is, after all, what Paul is trying to explain all through chapters 9-11. The apostle Paul says God has planned the salvation of Israel in three steps – 1) hardening of some of the Jews, 2) acceptance of some Gentiles, 3) all Israel will be saved. At this point we have some issues that need to be wrestled with. When Paul writes that “all Israel will be saved” we either have to define Israel by a certain set of people in order to make that consistent with all Paul has said about the necessity of righteousness to come by faith in Christ.... or we have to assume all Jews will eventually put their faith in Christ, or that God is going to save them no matter what (which is not consistent with what Paul has written to this point in Romans).

Some people have wanted to say Paul is talking about “Spiritual Israel” here but that just doesn’t bear out through the context at all points...for it seems clear that Paul is talking about ethnic Jews here. Thus, either they all will eventually put their faith in Christ or Paul is defining Israel in a slightly different way than meaning every single person who is a direct descendent of Abraham.

It is beyond dispute that Paul and Jesus agree that not all ethnic Jews are actually children of Abraham (see John 8:39-41 & Romans 4:12).

Moreover, it has always been the case that God has called his people “Israel” when some Jews were not included in that number. Two places we see this in the OT are the concept of the remnant and also through blessings and curses in Deuteronomy..and for more on that, one can see the first paragraph in this post on Galatians 3:10-14. In Deuteronomy blessings and curses are repeatedly laid out before God’s people. The gist of it is, if you follow God and keep his commandments you will do well in the land. But if you double cross God and go your own way, you will be under a curse. This curse was basically considered a removal of the blessings of God and of covenant status with God.

Essentially, that basically would put an ethnic Jew out of “Israel” and into the same status as the Gentiles (who were also thought to be cursed and devoid of God’s blessings). Others may disagree, but my contention here when Paul says “all Israel will be saved” is that he is talking about “true Israelites” (as Jesus refered to Nathaniel as in John 1:47)…those who obeyed the law and were led by that law, as it was intended to do, to Jesus Christ. This does not mean every single Jew who ever lived will be saved and it does not mean that every single Jew will somehow get a second chance to believe in Jesus at the last day. It probably means faithful Jews will turn to Christ and be redeemed and that in some way, shape or form, there may be more of that to come than we realize.

Romans 11:26 could also mean that the physical Israeli State of today (or the future)/All Israelites who are NOT saved currently will later go through a great time of trial which will lead to much destruction--and yet those who remain will collectively turn to Yeshua together (just as it seems they collectively go AGAINST Yeshua currently aggressively in disbelief)...and when all the Jews left colletively repent, the Lord will save them---thus fulfilling the prophesy that "All Israel will be saved."

We'll see.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Jewish people are the older brothers of our faith, according to Pope John Paul II. We are family; Jews by birth, Christians by adoption, but we are all family.

Even in being brothers, just as we're called to walk out our faith with fear and trembling or assume all will make it regardless, so we too must be careful to not avoid saying the same applies for those in the Jewish world. Much of it has been advocated before by others such as John Hagee with what he discussed called Dual Covenant Theology. And other Messianics have given it alot of serious addressment thankfully.

• The Dangers of Dual Covenant Theology : Line of Fire
• Dr. Michael Brown - The Dangers of Dual Covenant Theology ...
• Welcome to True Light Ministries' Blog » Dr. Michael Brown and John Hagee...
• Sid Roth - It's Supernatural Messianic Vision: Is There Serious Error in the New Book, "In Defense of Israel?"

...

Everyone has to go through Yeshua, as He is the Gate--but I wonder often what to make of it when the apostles often noted that those who have heard of Yeshua in this life/reject Him to keep Torah can never be saved:

Acts 28:27
23 They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. 24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:

26 “‘Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]
​

2
8 “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!” [29] [b


] 30 For two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him. 31 He proclaimed the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ—with all boldness and without hindrance!

Acts 4:12
“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” ()

​

One cannot be Biblical and have the mindset that all Jewish people in existence are automatically believers in the Lord/geared for eternity with Him. Christ made that very plain in John 8:31-48 as well as multiple other places when discussing what it means to be a believer in HIM and saying those who do not are non-believers. Those who do not have the Messiah, as Paul and Peter/the other apostles often noted, are incomplete and in need of salvation.


Dr.Michael Brown did an excellent review on the matter from a Jewish perspective once before:

An Incomplete Religion? w/ Dr. Michael Brown 1/2 ...
An Incomplete Religion? w/ Dr. Michael Brown 2/2 ...​

One cannot believe Yeshua is the Way to salvation and simultaneously claim Jews without Christ are complete as they are..as that's the what other Messianic Jewish organizations have often had to address when seeing the same taught by others such as John Hagee with Dual Covenant theology when claiming the Jewish people apart from Messiah do not need evangelism/the Work of the Messiah. It was dealt with by the early Jewish believers in the early church and it is something others have discussed here before.

 

[macher]

When our 2nd was born we didn't put our first born aside.

 

[Steve Petersen]

When our 2nd was born we didn't put our first born aside.

Please try to learn how to use the quote function. Just click the quote button on the post you want to quote. It will be pasted into your post window automatically.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

When our 2nd was born we didn't put our first born aside.

Our family doesn't never did that either. What does happen, however, is fairness - as the firstborn daughter is free to do as she wishes and cannot expect that she will always recieve support for every one of her decisions simply because of status - nor does it mean that privelages given to her will remain when she violates trust/despises the parents, just as it is with the 2nd and 3rd born children. In practical example, she got resources when she was younger/needed help with school - and she always has a Father than loves her....but if she chose to keep getting pregnant or wreck the car she has, it is not the responsibility of the parents to take care of her on those levels continually nor is it proper for the children who do honor the parents to have things taken from them to help out the daughter.

The same thing occurs spiritually when it came to what the Lord said on ALL men being judged based on if they feared Him/acknowledged him ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 2, Romans 3, Romans 9:5-7 , etc.).

 

[yedida]

Our family doesn't never did that either. What does happen, however, is fairness - as the firstborn daughter is free to do as she wishes and cannot expect that she will always recieve support for every one of her decisions simply because of status - nor does it mean that privelages given to her will remain when she violates trust/despises the parents, just as it is with the 2nd and 3rd born children. In practical example, she got resources when she was younger/needed help with school - and she always has a Father than loves her....but if she chose to keep getting pregnant or wreck the car she has, it is not the responsibility of the parents to take care of her on those levels continually nor is it proper for the children who do honor the parents to have things taken from them to help out the daughter.

The same thing occurs spiritually when it came to what the Lord said on ALL men being judged based on if they feared Him/acknowledged him ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 2, Romans 3, Romans 9:5-7 , etc.).

Take an honest look at the synoptic gospels and also at Messiah's words to the churches in Rev - very little is actually said about "believing/having faith in him" He spoke of loving God and obeying God. (And I believe that John was written to refute "certain" teachers/teachings.) Faith really was not the topic with Yeshua, rather it was faithfulness - there's a difference.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Take an honest look at the synoptic gospels and also at Messiah's words to the churches in Rev - very little is actually said about "believing/having faith in him" .

Read through them - multiple times - and in studying them with other Messianic Jews, it is rather amazing how much focus was placed directly on "Repent! For the Kingdom of GOD is near" and noting that whoever did not place faith in the Son was lost and He came to save those who chose to trust in Him. It's not a hidden issue nor something that's a rarity with the Words of Christ since He was forceful on it and one wouldn't be honest in seeing otherwise in His claims.

The same goes for what he said in Revelations 2-3 - giving words of encouragement as well as rebuke to the believers in those churches - some for failing to remove Jezebel/sexual immorality and others for failing to remember their first love..while others in being luke-warm. Only 2 out of the rest got no rebukes - but all others were told their lampstands and influence would be removed if they did not change.

The same goes for the Apostles - who noted salvation found in Yeshua and often came to sharp blows with non-believing Jews when sharing that they did not have any hope of salvation or resurrection when actively choosing to reject Christ.

He spoke of loving God and obeying God.

He also spoke of looking to the SON - on whom the Father set his seal of approval - in order to have Life. John 11 and John 5 and John 7 all speak of this in addition to multiple other places. Loving others was a big deal in what he said - but it was in connection with all choosing to look to Him as well. For someone who never has heard of Christ, that's one thing - as the Lord is merciful. But for those who deny Him, he had very sharp words.

Mark 8:38
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
Mark 8:37-38

Luke 12

Warnings and Encouragements

12 Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: “Be[a] on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2 There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 3 What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.

4 “I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

8 “I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God.9 But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God. 10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven
​

Faith really was not the topic with Yeshua, rather it was faithfulness - there's a difference

I'd seriously suggest doing a study on the amount of times Christ noted directly that the Faith of others was what saved them.

The role of faith in healing is CRUCIAL AND IT IS MANIFEST IN A NUMBER OF WAYS. On occasion the faith of the person needing healing is instrumental (Matthew 9:22); while at other times it is the faith of a friend or family member (Matthew 15:28; Mark 2:2-12). Sometimes the focus of faith is on the faith of the person praying for the one who needs healing (Mark 9:17-24), and on certain occasions, faith apparently plays no part AT ALL IN THE HEALING ( John 5:1-9; indeed, in the Gospel of John, faith is never mentioned as a condition for healing; see also Matthew 8:14-17, and, especially John 9).


The point is that on sme occasions, GOD SIMPLY HEALS BY A SOVEREIGN ACT OF HIS WILL UNRELATED TO ANYTHING IN US.

However, in the vast majority of cases, Jesus healed people because of someone’s faith.

In the case of both Jairus and the woman suffering from bleeding (Mark 5), faith was directed toward Jesus as an expression of need. Again, in Luke 17:11-19, Jesus healed ten lepers. When one returned to say thanks, JESUS said: “Your faith has made you well” (Luke 17:19).

When Bartimaeus asked Jesus to heal him of his blindness, Jesus said: “Go, your faith has healed you.” (Mark 10:52). In the famous story of the paralytic being lowered through the roof, Jesus healed him when he saw that the man’s friends had FAITH (Mark 2:5)

And then there's faith for conversion - something that come up repeatedly in scripture when it came to others actively placing faith in Messiah:

Luke 7:50
Jesus Anointed by a Sinful Woman

36Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. 37When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, 38and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.


39When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner."
40Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."
"Tell me, teacher," he said.
41"Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[d] and the other fifty. 42Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"
43Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled."
"You have judged correctly," Jesus said.
44Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."

48Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
49The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" 50Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Luke 7:49-50 (in Context) Luke 7

​

Like Paul, John the Baptist, Jesus, and all the other apostles preached the gospel, calling on all people to repent (see Matt.3:2; 4:17; 11:20; Mark 6:12; Luke 5:32; 13:3, 5; 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 11:18; 20:21; 26:20; Rom. 2:4: 2 Pet. 3:9). Several times in the book of Revelation, John is amazed that unregenerate people don’t repent while suffering God’s judgments (see Rev. 9:20-21; 16:9, 11). Jesus pronounced woe upon all the people of Chorazin and Bethsaida because they didn’t repent, obviously indicating He believed they had the capacity to repent (see Matt. 11:21). He also declared that the wicked people of Tyre and Sidon, who didn’t repent, would have repented if they had seen miracles like the people of Chorazin and Bethsaida had seen! In both cases, Jesus believed that those who didn’t repent had the capacity to repent and should have repented, in contrast to Calvinists, who believe unregenerate people have no capacity to repent outside of God changing their wills and forcing them to repent (which He only does for some).

Jesus expected everyone of His generation to repent, because He stated that the men of Nineveh, who repented at Jonah’s preaching, would rightfully condemn His generation for not repenting.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2

Acts 3:19
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
Acts 3

Acts 8:22
Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
Acts 8

Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Acts 17

Acts 20:21
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
Acts 20:20-22 / Acts 20

Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
Acts 26

Romans 2:4
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
Romans 2

2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
2 Corinthians 7:9-11/ 2 Corinthians 7
​

 

[yedida]

Read through them - multiple times - and in studying them with other Messianic Jews, it is rather amazing how much focus was placed directly on "Repent! For the Kingdom of GOD is near" and noting that whoever did not place faith in the Son was lost and He came to save those who chose to trust in Him. It's not a hidden issue nor something that's a rarity with the Words of Christ since He was forceful on it and one wouldn't be honest in seeing otherwise in His claims.

The same goes for what he said in Revelations 2-3 - giving words of encouragement as well as rebuke to the believers in those churches - some for failing to remove Jezebel/sexual immorality and others for failing to remember their first love..while others in being luke-warm. Only 2 out of the rest got no rebukes - but all others were told their lampstands and influence would be removed if they did not change.

The same goes for the Apostles - who noted salvation found in Yeshua and often came to sharp blows with non-believing Jews when sharing that they did not have any hope of salvation or resurrection when actively choosing to reject Christ.He also spoke of looking to the SON - on whom the Father set his seal of approval - in order to have Life. John 11 and John 5 and John 7 all speak of this in addition to multiple other places. Loving others was a big deal in what he said - but it was in connection with all choosing to look to Him as well. For someone who never has heard of Christ, that's one thing - as the Lord is merciful. But for those who deny Him, he had very sharp words.

Mark 8:38
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
Mark 8:37-38

Luke 12

Warnings and Encouragements

12 Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: “Be[a] on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2 There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 3 What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.

4 “I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

8 “I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God.9 But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God. 10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven
​

I'd seriously suggest doing a study on the amount of times Christ noted directly that the Faith of others was what saved them.

I stand by my previous post. Messiah spoke more of loving and obeying God than simply "believing in" Him. He spoke more of faithfulness to God and His word than faith in himself. In Rev. the word faith is used only 2-3 times, but He spoke incessantly of things done/not done, to do/not to do - obedience, faithfulness far outweigh mental agreement.
You're free to have the last word. This is mine on this subject.

 

[ananda]

I'd seriously suggest doing a study on the amount of times Christ noted directly that the Faith of others was what saved them.

My opinion is that the problem rests in English translations that choose to translate πίστις (pistis) almost exclusively into the English world "faith". πίστις, however, includes the meanings of "trust", "faithfulness", and "obedience", and these definitions are unfortunately obscured in most translations. πιστεύω (pisteuo, related verb form of πίστι&#962 is often translated as "believe", when it actually also includes the "faithfulness" and "obedience" implications of its root word πίστις.

A second issue relates to occasions where tenses and moods are not translated accurately, e.g. Mk 11:22:

καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς Ἰησοῦς λέγει αὐτοῖς Ἕχετε πίστιν θεοῦ
​

The Ἕχετε is in the Greek present tense, which indicates something that is ongoing without reference to time, where as its imperative mood indicates that it must be done. This verse is translated "And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God" in the KJV. I propose that it should be clarified, e.g. "And Yehoshua answering saith unto them, You must-continue to have faithfulness in Elohim."

Another example, with the verb form:

Μὴ ταρασσέσθω ὑμῶν ἡ καρδία πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε - Jn 14:1
​

πιστεύετε is also in the Greek present tense. The KJV translates it "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me" whereas I propose that it should be clarified something along this line: "Let not your heart be continually-troubled: ye continually-must-believe/faithfulness/trusting/obedience in Elohim, continually-must-believe/faithfulness/trusting/obedience also in me."