Combating Inclusive/Progressive Christianity

[redleghunter]

More from Methodists on their own belief system.

The Quadrilateral or the Word of God?

 

[redleghunter]

Third, unless you also have (falsely) decided that my loyalty lies with written words vs. the person of Christ, then I'm not certain why you are arguing with me here except for the sake of arguing.

I think I made it clear your false trichotomy ends up canceling out any truth as superior.

For if the Scriptures cannot be relied upon and the Creeds argued from the Scriptures, then how would you test “The Person of Christ” claim you make?

We are called to Salvation by what and Who exactly? The what is Hearing the Word, The Who is the Holy Spirit. So you can’t separate.

Maybe I am just a “Bible bigot” like John Wesley (his words not mine).

 

[redleghunter]

Maybe it would be useful to your argument to learn the history of the creeds and how and why they came to be

They came to be because there were those teaching error. The question is what did St Athanasius and others use to contend for the faith?

 

[redleghunter]

Second, even in your cherry-picked quote, Wesley, despite holding scripture in very high regard, does not claim it is the scripture itself (or creeds) that have his loyalty, a loyalty that is only appropriately given to God.

Another contrived and false dichotomy. The Scriptures testify of the Truth God communicated to mankind.

You seem to be equating your contrived personal definition that “bible idolatry” (whatever that is I don’t know) is equal to Sola Scriptura.

 

[bekkilyn]

It's not a false accusation. Your entire premise has been that since people misunderstand scripture and some people intentionally twist scripture, that we should rely on creeds.

That is putting the creed ahead of scripture. And you even then twisted scripture yourself to "prove" that this it was creeds that prevented the effectiveness of that. That elevates the creed to being more useful and authoritative than the scripture.

Either go back and read again with greater understanding, or refrain from the false accusations.

 

[bekkilyn]

In response to a whole barrage of posts written by redleghunter that completely missed the point:

Is there some real purpose for your very obvious and personal hostility towards me in making all of these attacks, even to the point of also attacking my denomination and one of its founders? Don't try to tell me that you actually want discussion because it is very obvious that you don't.

If you don't wish to argue that the traditional creeds are garbage and that instead the "bible alone" solves every issue that Christianity has experienced over the centuries (including all the numerous heresies that have cropped up), then your argument isn't with me.

 

[redleghunter]

Is there some real purpose for your very obvious and personal hostility towards me in making all of these attacks, even to the point of also attacking my denomination and one of its founders? Don't try to tell me that you actually want discussion because it is very obvious that you don't.

If you don't wish to argue that the traditional creeds are garbage and that instead the "bible alone" solves every issue that Christianity has experienced over the centuries (including all the numerous heresies that have cropped up), then your argument isn't with me.

I will not respond to this doctored quote from me. I did not write it and frankly you should know I did not.

 

[redleghunter]

Is there some real purpose for your very obvious and personal hostility towards me in making all of these attacks, even to the point of also attacking my denomination and one of its founders? Don't try to tell me that you actually want discussion because it is very obvious that you don't.

If you don't wish to argue that the traditional creeds are garbage and that instead the "bible alone" solves every issue that Christianity has experienced over the centuries (including all the numerous heresies that have cropped up), then your argument isn't with me.

Another contrived and false dichotomy. The Scriptures testify of the Truth God communicated to mankind.

You seem to be equating your contrived personal definition that “bible idolatry” (whatever that is I don’t know) is equal to Sola Scriptura.

Apparently what you quoted from me was changed around to make it look I made such a claim. Yet the above is what I actually wrote in the response back to you.

Would you like to actually address what I wrote and not the straw man you keep putting up and attacking?

 

[bekkilyn]

I will not respond to this doctored quote from me. I did not write it and frankly you should know I did not.

Not that it wasn't obvious, but I edited my post to make it perfectly clear that you didn't write the quote. I'm not really interested in yet more hostile personal attacks from you though, so I'm perfectly fine with your choice to not respond.

 

[bekkilyn]

Apparently what you quoted from me was changed around to make it look I made such a claim. Yet the above is what I actually wrote in the response back to you.

Would you like to actually address what I wrote and not the straw man you keep putting up and attacking?

Might I remind that you I wasn't even talking to you in the first place when you barged into the middle of a conversation I was having with someone else? So unless you are defending *that* viewpoint, then again, your argument isn't with me.

 

[redleghunter]

Is there some real purpose for your very obvious and personal hostility towards me in making all of these attacks, even to the point of also attacking my denomination and one of its founders?

I did not attack your denomination. I just showed in context that John Wesley would disagree with you on Sola Scriptura.

If you don't wish to argue that the traditional creeds are garbage and that instead the "bible alone" solves every issue that Christianity has experienced over the centuries (including all the numerous heresies that have cropped up), then your argument isn't with me.

Yeah not seeing where my comments even suggested what you are personally attacking me of being.

 

[redleghunter]

Might I remind that you I wasn't even talking to you in the first place when you barged into the middle of a conversation I was having with someone else? So unless you are defending *that* viewpoint, then again, your argument isn't with me.

Well then how did me redleghunter end up saying something I never said. Is it a software issue with CF then? Because if it were an issue with the software then the entire quote from someone else would be posted And when you click on the quote it would go to the actual post.

All I can conclude is you erased what I said and pasted another response in my quote box.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

My loyalty doesn't lie with the scriptures or with creeds, but with the *person* of Christ Jesus.

Who is Jesus, and why are you loyal to Him?

 

[bekkilyn]

I did not attack your denomination. I just showed in context that John Wesley would disagree with you on Sola Scriptura.

Nope, you cherry-picked small quotes from Wesley taken out of context to suggest that Wesley did not believe that tradition, other writings, experience, reason, etc. were authoritative in any way, but anyone who actually reads his sermons and writings on the whole knows it's not true. While scripture has primary authority, tradition, reason, etc. guides our interpretation of scripture.

Sola scriptura does not consider ANYTHING outside of the bible as having any authority at all. It truly is "bible alone" and that's simply not what Wesley agrees to. Wesley was extremely well read and held church tradition, the writings of the church fathers, etc. in very high regard, just not as highly as he did scripture.

Well then how did me redleghunter end up saying something I never said. Is it a software issue with CF then? Because if it were an issue with the software then the entire quote from someone else would be posted And when you click on the quote it would go to the actual post.

All I can conclude is you erased what I said and pasted another response in my quote box.

I wasn't going to quote all six of your attacks and respond to each one of them. Since you didn't like what I put into the quote box to summarize all of them, I edited to remove the quote box.

 

[bekkilyn]

Who is Jesus, and why are you loyal to Him?

Who is jimmyjimmy and what is jimmyjimmy's motive for asking this question? Did you have something to say concerning the traditional creeds?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Who is jimmyjimmy and what is jimmyjimmy's motive for asking this question? Did you have something to say concerning the traditional creeds?

Who is this Jesus you speak of, and why would you be loyal to him?

 

[redleghunter]

Nope, you cherry-picked small quotes from Wesley taken out of context to suggest that Wesley did not believe that tradition, other writings, experience, reason, etc.

Once again I did provide the context. The link takes you to Wesley’s view of the Bible. Whether is Primary to all else or Sola Scriptura, the linked source kind of gives a clear picture of where Wesley stood on the issue of Sola Ecclesia.

Again if you can actually show me where I actually said what you are accusing me of then show it and debate with me.

 

[redleghunter]

Sola scriptura does not consider ANYTHING outside of the bible as having any authority at all.

Can you show me that definition of Sola Scriptura from one of the Reformers?

 

[redleghunter]

I wasn't going to quote all six of your attacks and respond to each one of them. Since you didn't like what I put into the quote box to summarize all of them, I edited to remove the quote box.

Yet you chose to change my words.

There’s a difference between debating a subject and attacking the person. I asked valid questions and also provided reliable sources.

 

[bekkilyn]

Yet you chose to change my words.

There’s a difference between debating a subject and attacking the person. I asked valid questions and also provided reliable sources.

Okay, I'm done.

Sealioning - Wikipedia