Colossians 1:24... some thoughts.

[Carl Emerson]

Wisdom is lacking in those who pursue it by
study and discussion, rather in the secret place
of the sanctuary. What we receive from the Lord
we present to the body of Christ. Every seeker
of wisdom from above can partake in this ministering.
As to the role of discussion, that is up for discussion
what many call discussion is unfruitful.

What you are calling disengenuous and a pot shot the
Law, the Lord, and Paul all agree as to be doctrine
"let every matter be established at the mouth of 2 or 3
witnesses". I often use a dozen scriptures in a thread
to fully establish a strong scriptural context for the
discussion that you claim to value. You've been on
my threads, you can verify what I am saying, and
yet, you, like many rate the post, and move on.
So where is the discussion? The link you post to
one of your threads? That too is disengenuous.
I did NOT take pot shots at you on this thread,
I provided a scriptural basis for comparing the
afflictions of the flesh, which are inevitable in
public ministry, and the idea of supplications
in private prayer. Many need to make that
distinction. You chose to ignore my posts,
until you stated that I had issues. Again, you
did so without addressing me directly, just
posted words with the solicitation from comments
from others. That too was disengenuous.

This was also addressed, and I will re-state for you.
The cross was a singular event on earth that displays
what the Father accomplished before the world began.
The blood of sprinkling, which establishes the elect,
by the Lamb that was slain is a timeless event, by which
we continue to preach the Gospel as the power of God
the Father for salvation. The world sees what occured
2000 years ago and asks "where is the promise of His
coming". Believers see the Lamb slain even before
Abraham told Isaac "God Himself will provide the Lamb",
and continue "pressing toward the goal". This is to see
with our spiritual eyes who Christ is, what His Father
accomplished through Him and where He is NOW.
Hence Paul writes:
2 Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
While you insist on continuing to see the crucified Christ,
I see the Lamb of God that took away the sins of the
world, seated at the right hand of power in the heavenlies.
This is why Paul wrote
Colossians 3:
1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.

What the apostles, and we accomplish as an expression
of the kingdom of God on earth flows from the throne
in heaven, this is why Jesus said:
John 1:51 And He said to him, Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.
We can manifest the kingdom of heaven on earth even as
we pray "let your kingdom come and your Will be done
on earth, as it is in heaven", and even as we make inter-
cession for others.
We do this because Jesus promised to send us the Holy
Spirit, by which we can minister in the same capacity
as His disciples. This is fully explored on the thread I
originated on John 13-16 this past week.
I will quote one verse for now, and move on.
John 14:12 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

Established.



This is where you are going to have to bring in some scriptures to support such a statement. I have already objected to such a line of reason, and you can downplay the knowledge of scripture, but I have already responded in depth to this. Partaking of Christ's afflictions is not vicariously experiencing the Cross. It is the fulfillment of what Christ and the apostles have assured us we will endure at the hands of those who hate God. "If they persecuted me they will persecute you" This is the suffering way, which marks our walk here on earth. As to the intercessions of Christ, I have already directed you twice on this thread to Gethsemane where He invites His disciples to tarry with Him in prayers, intercessions, supplications and the Christlike surrender of "not my will but yours be done".


As I have been doing this for the past two days, I feel I
have exhausted myself against someone who has kicked against the goads of the Anointing at every step. I will leave
it to you to review my minimum 6 posts to decide if in any way I have expressed the topic "more perfectly".

OK I am starting to get the picture - I am interacting with 'The Anointing' not a fallible brother.

However you have agreed that...

"The blood of sprinkling, which establishes the elect,
by the Lamb that was slain is a timeless event, by which
we continue to preach the Gospel as the power of God
the Father for salvation."

So you agree that there is a timeless aspect to the Cross.

We have then one very strong opinion.

How about some more opinions from readers.

Sorry this topic is a bit intense - not surprising I guess given that it is so central to the gospel.

Should we not have crosses in church because our focus should always be towards His Throne?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Can Jesus allow us to feel His Compassion on the Cross for the sick as we pray for them ???

 

[com7fy8]

Should we not have crosses in church because our focus should always be towards His Throne?

Well, Jesus says, for any person who desires to come after Jesus, "let him take up his cross daily, and follow Me", in Luke 9:23. But does this "cross" mean some one hard thing of suffering, for each person? If it does, then a church group could need to have "crosses" . . . each one with his or her hard and impossible and suffering thing . . . maybe as you mean.

But I have considered that the cross Jesus means first had to do with how He was loving, while on His cross. And He desires for us also to join with Him, share with Him in us like Paul did > Galatians 2:20 > so that we are all-loving like Jesus on the cross. And possibly this is what Paul means in Ephesians 5:2 >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

So, our cross which Jesus means would have to do with how we are loving while going through things. Jesus in us has us making sacrifices sweetly . . . like how He was a "sweet-smelling aroma" on the cross, but all the time in all we do, whether we are suffering or not. There is how we are to love, all the time >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, it is not only the quantity of suffering which matters, but the quality of the love and how we are forgiving "even as God".

And God's own grace makes us like Jesus and has us love like Jesus, so this is spreading through us to bless others to be and love like Jesus, as Peter says to minister >

"As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." (1 Peter 4:10)

So, not only our sufferings for Jesus, but all our living in Him can minister His own grace . . . including through actions of any gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Plus, if our example is God's way - - - our example in the sight of God - - - then we are Christ's cups running over with His grace to make others the same way we are becoming and therefore loving in Jesus. I would say this is what Peter means by being "examples to the flock" >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, all the time we need to feed how Jesus is and loves.

"Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

This means living in God's love. This example ministers His grace at any time we obey how He has us loving . . . not only during certain public Sunday gestures or certain experiences which get our attention, though these may be of God.

People could spend hours a day with Jesus and feed on His example both during His sufferings and other quality time with Him. So, at any time, our example can spread God's own grace. And God acting in His grace is infallible, by the way.

 

[tturt]

We can only love the way we should with God,'s help.

Also, read an article on taking up our cross daily and following Jesus only meant surrendering the things we didn't agree with to Christ. That is only one aspect of what that verse means. Though dying to self is lifelong.

The first part of that verse states "If any man will come after me..." So pain and suffering will be part of every believer's experience in varying degrees.

Also, those believers in some countries who are persecuted ar on a different level.. One country is putting four generations in jail if someone becomes a believer. So then pray for the persecuted and asks the Lord for help applying Eph 4:31-32

 

[WarriorAngel]

Colossians 1:24
English Standard Version

Paul's Ministry to the Church
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church...

==================================

Here is an insight into what Paul is meaning here.

How can Christs afflictions be lacking ???

Paul was deeply into intercession and understood the centrality of the Cross in all his effort to serve His Saviour and share in His sufferings.

What happened on the Cross was very profound, impacting all of creation and humanity.

Paul realised that the ministers of Christ have a calling and purpose to enter into the the work of the Cross with Christ, sharing in His sufferings for the sake of His Body the Church...

Jesus carried all our sickness, cares and burdens but the healing comes as we share with Jesus on behalf of the suffering, reaching out with His Love and healing.

So the grace to meet the healing needs of his brothers and sisters, although complete on the Cross, was yet to be appropriated and completed by those reach out with healing love in His name.

So reaching out in full confidence in what is completed on the Cross is central to healing ministry. This ministry will not be complete until He returns.

I also think this verse should be central in understanding the Ministry of Intercession.

Your thoughts appreciated.

What purpose would He have died without our cooperation?

Think of a stage and nobody comes. It is lacking participation? Right?

 

[Valletta]

OK I am starting to get the picture - I am interacting with an 'The Anointing' not a fallible brother.

However you have agreed that...

"The blood of sprinkling, which establishes the elect,
by the Lamb that was slain is a timeless event, by which
we continue to preach the Gospel as the power of God
the Father for salvation."

So you agree that there is a timeless aspect to the Cross.

We have then one very strong opinion.

How about some more opinions from readers.

Sorry this topic is a bit intense - not surprising I guess given that it is so central to the gospel.

Should we not have crosses in church because our focus should always be towards His Throne?

To me, falling upon what knowledge I have of God and His Word, it is heavily implied that there are expectations from God of actions on our part.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

To me, falling upon what knowledge I have of God and His Word, it is heavily implied that there are expectations from God of actions on our part.

These actions on are part are prompted by love and thankfulness for our redemption and the prompting of the Holy Spirit who indwells us upon our faith in Jesus.
I Thessalonians 1:3:
3 We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Philippians 2:13:
3 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Well, Jesus says, for any person who desires to come after Jesus, "let him take up his cross daily, and follow Me", in Luke 9:23. But does this "cross" mean some one hard thing of suffering, for each person? If it does, then a church group could need to have "crosses" . . . each one with his or her hard and impossible and suffering thing . . . maybe as you mean.

But I have considered that the cross Jesus means first had to do with how He was loving, while on His cross. And He desires for us also to join with Him, share with Him in us like Paul did > Galatians 2:20 > so that we are all-loving like Jesus on the cross. And possibly this is what Paul means in Ephesians 5:2 >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

So, our cross which Jesus means would have to do with how we are loving while going through things. Jesus in us has us making sacrifices sweetly . . . like how He was a "sweet-smelling aroma" on the cross, but all the time in all we do, whether we are suffering or not. There is how we are to love, all the time >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, it is not only the quantity of suffering which matters, but the quality of the love and how we are forgiving "even as God".

And God's own grace makes us like Jesus and has us love like Jesus, so this is spreading through us to bless others to be and love like Jesus, as Peter says to minister >

"As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." (1 Peter 4:10)

So, not only our sufferings for Jesus, but all our living in Him can minister His own grace . . . including through actions of any gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Plus, if our example is God's way - - - our example in the sight of God - - - then we are Christ's cups running over with His grace to make others the same way we are becoming and therefore loving in Jesus. I would say this is what Peter means by being "examples to the flock" >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, all the time we need to feed how Jesus is and loves.

"Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

This means living in God's love. This example ministers His grace at any time we obey how He has us loving . . . not only during certain public Sunday gestures or certain experiences which get our attention, though these may be of God.

People could spend hours a day with Jesus and feed on His example both during His sufferings and other quality time with Him. So, at any time, our example can spread God's own grace. And God acting in His grace is infallible, by the way.

Thanks for your offering especially reference to Eph 5 :2

This was a very helpful bunch of comments.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Well, Jesus says, for any person who desires to come after Jesus, "let him take up his cross daily, and follow Me", in Luke 9:23. But does this "cross" mean some one hard thing of suffering, for each person? If it does, then a church group could need to have "crosses" . . . each one with his or her hard and impossible and suffering thing . . . maybe as you mean.

But I have considered that the cross Jesus means first had to do with how He was loving, while on His cross. And He desires for us also to join with Him, share with Him in us like Paul did > Galatians 2:20 > so that we are all-loving like Jesus on the cross. And possibly this is what Paul means in Ephesians 5:2 >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

So, our cross which Jesus means would have to do with how we are loving while going through things. Jesus in us has us making sacrifices sweetly . . . like how He was a "sweet-smelling aroma" on the cross, but all the time in all we do, whether we are suffering or not. There is how we are to love, all the time >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, it is not only the quantity of suffering which matters, but the quality of the love and how we are forgiving "even as God".

And God's own grace makes us like Jesus and has us love like Jesus, so this is spreading through us to bless others to be and love like Jesus, as Peter says to minister >

"As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." (1 Peter 4:10)

So, not only our sufferings for Jesus, but all our living in Him can minister His own grace . . . including through actions of any gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Plus, if our example is God's way - - - our example in the sight of God - - - then we are Christ's cups running over with His grace to make others the same way we are becoming and therefore loving in Jesus. I would say this is what Peter means by being "examples to the flock" >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, all the time we need to feed how Jesus is and loves.

"Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

This means living in God's love. This example ministers His grace at any time we obey how He has us loving . . . not only during certain public Sunday gestures or certain experiences which get our attention, though these may be of God.

People could spend hours a day with Jesus and feed on His example both during His sufferings and other quality time with Him. So, at any time, our example can spread God's own grace. And God acting in His grace is infallible, by the way.

Are you on board then that our ministry should be Cross centred, being an expression of His compassion and that this compassion ever flows through the church to those who He touches by Grace ??

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Are you on board then that our ministry should be Cross centred, being an expression of His compassion and that this compassion ever flows through the church to those who He touches by Grace ??

That's not how I read it. We are to live this way out of our faith and overflowing expression of love which stems from our thankfulness to God for our redemption. The cross we bear is one of expression and out of an expression...the cross Jesus bore was for redemption...once for all...as Hebrews also declares.

 

[Carl Emerson]

That's not how I read it. We are to live this way out of our faith and overflowing expression of love which stems from our thankfulness to God for our redemption. The cross we bear is one of expression and out of an expression...the cross Jesus bore was for redemption...once for all...as Hebrews also declares.

Does not redemption include His compassion fully expressed on the Cross?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Does not redemption include His compassion fully expressed on the Cross?

What type of question are you asking? We all know the answer to that question.

 

[Carl Emerson]

What type of question are you asking? We all know the answer to that question.

My apologies...

Can you be more explicit regarding why you don't agree with the following quote please.

Are you on board then that our ministry should be Cross centred, being an expression of His compassion and that this compassion ever flows through the church to those who He touches by Grace ??

 

[BrotherJJ]

Colossians 1:24
English Standard Version

Paul's Ministry to the Church
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church...

==================================

Here is an insight into what Paul is meaning here.

How can Christs afflictions be lacking ???

Paul was deeply into intercession and understood the centrality of the Cross in all his effort to serve His Saviour and share in His sufferings.

What happened on the Cross was very profound, impacting all of creation and humanity.

Paul realised that the ministers of Christ have a calling and purpose to enter into the the work of the Cross with Christ, sharing in His sufferings for the sake of His Body the Church...

Jesus carried all our sickness, cares and burdens but the healing comes as we share with Jesus on behalf of the suffering, reaching out with His Love and healing.

So the grace to meet the healing needs of his brothers and sisters, although complete on the Cross, was yet to be appropriated and completed by those reach out with healing love in His name.

So reaching out in full confidence in what is completed on the Cross is central to healing ministry. This ministry will not be complete until He returns.

I also think this verse should be central in understanding the Ministry of Intercession.

Your thoughts appreciated.

Amplified Bible
Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings on your behalf. And with my own body I supplement whatever is lacking [on our part] of Christ’s afflictions, on behalf of His body, which is the church.
Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 1 - Amplified Bible

The Message Bible
Col 1:24-25 I want you to know how glad I am that it’s me sitting here in this jail and not you. There’s a lot of suffering to be entered into in this world—the kind of suffering Christ takes on. I welcome the chance to take my share in the church’s part of that suffering. When I became a servant in this church, I experienced this suffering as a sheer gift, God’s way of helping me serve you, laying out the whole truth.
Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 1 - The Message

 

[The Liturgist]

Thank you for bringing some specifics to what otherwise
was just another "most churches" comment.

Indeed I always try to be specific, and the fact is some denominations, such as those I mentioned, emphasize the cross rather substantially more than others. As an example of a denomination that doesn’t strongly emphasize the theology of the Cross or the remembrance of the Crucifixion, I would cite the Religious Society of Friends, also known as Quakers, who traditionally do not have a cross in their meeting halls, and whose theology is primarily focused on the experience of “the Inner Light” which among Christian Quakers is held to be the working of the Holy Spirit.

Quakers are also interesting in that historically they believed they celebrate the sacraments of Baptism and Holy Communion “inwardly” and in a spiritual sense, rather than “outwardly”, that is to say, actually celebrating them.

Now, fortunately, since the 1800s there has been an emergence of Evangelical Quakers who depart from the mold I just described, with actual celebration of the sacraments and more normal church services, althougj many still provide an opportunity for “waiting worship.”

Another denomination that appears to de-emphasize the Cross, in this case in favor of a theology oriented around charitable service, is the Salvation Army, which also does not celebrate the sacraments. It has an unusual military-style organization, with clergy being referred to as “Commissioned Officers” and the laity being “Enlisted Soldiers.” My understanding is that the Salvation Army regards itself as a highly specialized church and never sought to become the predominant form of Christianity; this stands in contrast to the early Quakers who were very interested in expansion, with their founder George Fox attempting (obviously without success) to convert both the Pope and the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire.

 

[The Liturgist]

Should we not have crosses in church because our focus should always be towards His Throne?

I refuse to be a member of any church that does not display the cross. I mentioned the Quakers and the Salvation Army in my previous post because they are the only denominations without a strong Theologia Crucis that I have any interest in and would consider visiting (I might also visit King’s Chapel in Boston, which is Unitarian Universalist, but uses a modified version of the Book of Common Prayer intended to be able to accomodate both Trinitarians and Unitarians, which sets them apart from most of the Unitarian heretical churches, in that they are not explicitly anti-Trinitarian; however, if I visited them it would be to obtain a copy of the current version of their BCP for my collection, and I would not visit them at a time that conflicted with a normal service, nor would I join them in prayer).

 

[Carl Emerson]

Isaiah 53
However, it was our sicknesses that He Himself bore,
And our pains that He carried;
Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted,
Struck down by God, and humiliated.
5 But He was pierced for our offenses,
He was crushed for our wrongdoings;
The punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him,
And by His wounds we are healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the wrongdoing of us all
To fall on Him.

Yet I have struggled to get support and establish this fact that when praying for the sick the Cross should be central to the ministry.

I was even called 'mystical' when it is clearly in scripture.

Paul knew that keeping focus on the Crucified Christ and not be diverted was key to seeing God move in power.

What on earth is wrong with us - why do we want to deny this central truth ???

 

[com7fy8]

Are you on board then that our ministry should be Cross centred, being an expression of His compassion and that this compassion ever flows through the church to those who He touches by Grace ??

no . . . but >

I consider how Romans 5:10 says >

"For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." (Romans 5:10)

So, Carl, I see from this how indeed we have been reconciled at the cross.

But notice how it says "much more" >

"saved by His life."

So, I see how the cross is not the center, but the start > but also our example, as I understand Ephesians 5:2 means. So, yes we do keep preaching the cross. And we have how by means of communion we proclaim "the Lord's death till He comes." (in 1 Corinthians 11:26)

So, yes it is crucial to minister and keep attention to the cross.

But His death does not show His coming

So, the finished work of the cross is our reconciliation finished, I would say.

But when one starts at the cross, he or she is not completely mature like Jesus, whose "life" in us brings us to live in God's love. But our reconciliation got us started in Christ.

But our assurance is not based only on our reconciliation at the cross >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

Our boldness . . . assurance . . . is not only because we have been reconciled, but His "life" of His love in us has perfected us so that "as He is, so are we in this world."

This perfecting in His "life" that saves us is not because of our works, but by means of God working > Philippians 2:13.

A person reconciled still needs to grow in how to submit to God. This comes after the reconciliation which starts the person.

So, for evangelistic ministry, yes we need for people to start at the cross.

But then comes the resurrection. Are we going to say the resurrection of Jesus is not central, but the cross is? I don't think so. And in any case, Jesus is central to the cross, and Jesus is central to the resurrection, and Jesus is central to how we need to become conformed to the image of Jesus who is God's own Son.

So, "It's all about Jesus."

And in case I am right, we have corroborating confirmation of what Peter says >

Our Apostle Peter says what we have "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ", in 1 Peter 1:3 >

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead," (1 Peter 1:3)

Peter does not say we are begotten through the cross, but "through the resurrection"!

Even so, Carl, I see how in being reconciled, we come alive to God, as I think He means in Ephesians 2:1 >

"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins," (Ephesians 2:1)

I would say we were alive, when we were reconciled at the cross > no longer "dead in trespasses and sins". But then came our resurrection beyond the cross.

So, Paul says we will be saved by means of Jesus Christ's "life". And, lo and behold, here is Peter . . . another apostle . . . saying we have been "begotten" by means of Jesus Christ's "resurrection", which involves His own life.

So, I see how we have been reconciled through the cross, plus then we have life through His resurrection which brings almighty power of Jesus Christ's very own life of love to us.

And we can talk about what this life coming through the resurrection does in us. And one thing it does is make us alive in God's own love . . . so then we can live in the love which had Jesus suffering while so loving while on the cross.

And so through the resurrection we have the life which makes us able to live and love like Jesus did, on the cross - - - as Paul commands us to do, in Ephesians 5:2

But I now get that it is Jesus Himself who feeds us this life of His love. Jesus resurrected and on Heaven's throne ministers this to us through the Holy Spirit >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, yes it is "through" the cross and "through" the resurrection, but Jesus Himself is now our present source . . . by means of His Holy Spirit.

And we do not have to keep on suffering, all the time, in order to have that same love in us, which was in Christ on the cross; Jesus on the cross is the same Jesus who did a lot of things which were not suffering . . . including having very precious sharing with ladies who knew how to relate with Jesus > His love which made Him able to so suffer also made Him able to share so specially with certain ladies and men who knew how to relate with Jesus.

So, the love which made Him able to suffer as "a sweet-smelling aroma" can in us also make us able to relate sweetly with one another > "without complaining and disputing" > Philippians 2:13-16, all the time and not only while we suffer and might make sacrifices.

Therefore, of course, it is good to already be living in this love before we go into sufferings and death for Jesus. But this resurrection life of Jesus is for all the time, in pleasant time and suffering and dying well.

 

[David's Harp]

Are you on board then that our ministry should be Cross centred, being an expression of His compassion and that this compassion ever flows through the church to those who He touches by Grace ??

Isaiah 53
However, it was our sicknesses that He Himself bore,
And our pains that He carried;
Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted,
Struck down by God, and humiliated.
5 But He was pierced for our offenses,
He was crushed for our wrongdoings;
The punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him,
And by His wounds we are healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the wrongdoing of us all
To fall on Him.

Yet I have struggled to get support and establish this fact that when praying for the sick the Cross should be central to the ministry.

I was even called 'mystical' when it is clearly in scripture.

Paul knew that keeping focus on the Crucified Christ and not be diverted was key to seeing God move in power.

What on earth is wrong with us - why do we want to deny this central truth ???

Brother Carl, you raise some thought provoking questions.

The way I look at this is that the Cross is central to our Faith in that it shows what God through His Son Jesus did. The atonement was a once-for-all event. But it also shows God's Love for us. (John 3:16) And like God's love spans the eternal (Psalm 136:26), so has the fruit of Jesus sacrifice on the Cross. (John 12:23-24, Hebrews 10:12, Colossians 1:18-20)
Paul also says if Christ is not risen then our faith is in vain and we are yet in our sins. (1 Corinthians 15:17)
Therefore we look to the risen Christ as the seat of authority and power through whom all grace flows. (Colossians 2:10, John 1:16, Hebrews 12:2)

In regards to your original quote of Colossians 1:24 my view is that Paul is recognising his own shortcomings in taking up his own cross. But he later in the same chapter points to God's Glory and highlights how every man should be made perfect in Jesus. (Colossians 1:25-28) Surely this is not done by focusing on the Crucifixion, but rather by taking up our own cross, thereby following the example of Jesus.
We see that in 2 Corinthians 12:7-10 Paul also states how God has shown him that his strength is made perfect in weakness. Paul rejoices in his suffering for the Church (in Colossians) as he realises his strength (to exhort the Gospel) is made perfect in his weakness.
To me, it seems clear that any power we have comes not from the Crucifixion event itself, but rather Faith in the risen Christ who now works in us and through us with the Spirit, as God Wills.

I've had to take a lot of time in constructing this post as I'm not well versed in Scripture, so please forgive any inconsistencies or errors in my reasoning, including if I've misunderstood the point you were making. I'm still learning.

Your brother in Christ,
David

 

[Carl Emerson]

no . . . but >

I consider how Romans 5:10 says >

"For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." (Romans 5:10)

So, Carl, I see from this how indeed we have been reconciled at the cross.

But notice how it says "much more" >

"saved by His life."

So, I see how the cross is not the center, but the start > but also our example, as I understand Ephesians 5:2 means. So, yes we do keep preaching the cross. And we have how by means of communion we proclaim "the Lord's death till He comes." (in 1 Corinthians 11:26)

So, yes it is crucial to minister and keep attention to the cross.

But His death does not show His coming

So, the finished work of the cross is our reconciliation finished, I would say.

But when one starts at the cross, he or she is not completely mature like Jesus, whose "life" in us brings us to live in God's love. But our reconciliation got us started in Christ.

But our assurance is not based only on our reconciliation at the cross >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

Our boldness . . . assurance . . . is not only because we have been reconciled, but His "life" of His love in us has perfected us so that "as He is, so are we in this world."

This perfecting in His "life" that saves us is not because of our works, but by means of God working > Philippians 2:13.

A person reconciled still needs to grow in how to submit to God. This comes after the reconciliation which starts the person.

So, for evangelistic ministry, yes we need for people to start at the cross.

But then comes the resurrection. Are we going to say the resurrection of Jesus is not central, but the cross is? I don't think so. And in any case, Jesus is central to the cross, and Jesus is central to the resurrection, and Jesus is central to how we need to become conformed to the image of Jesus who is God's own Son.

So, "It's all about Jesus."

And in case I am right, we have corroborating confirmation of what Peter says >

Our Apostle Peter says what we have "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ", in 1 Peter 1:3 >

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead," (1 Peter 1:3)

Peter does not say we are begotten through the cross, but "through the resurrection"!

Even so, Carl, I see how in being reconciled, we come alive to God, as I think He means in Ephesians 2:1 >

"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins," (Ephesians 2:1)

I would say we were alive, when we were reconciled at the cross > no longer "dead in trespasses and sins". But then came our resurrection beyond the cross.

So, Paul says we will be saved by means of Jesus Christ's "life". And, lo and behold, here is Peter . . . another apostle . . . saying we have been "begotten" by means of Jesus Christ's "resurrection", which involves His own life.

So, I see how we have been reconciled through the cross, plus then we have life through His resurrection which brings almighty power of Jesus Christ's very own life of love to us.

And we can talk about what this life coming through the resurrection does in us. And one thing it does is make us alive in God's own love . . . so then we can live in the love which had Jesus suffering while so loving while on the cross.

And so through the resurrection we have the life which makes us able to live and love like Jesus did, on the cross - - - as Paul commands us to do, in Ephesians 5:2

But I now get that it is Jesus Himself who feeds us this life of His love. Jesus resurrected and on Heaven's throne ministers this to us through the Holy Spirit >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, yes it is "through" the cross and "through" the resurrection, but Jesus Himself is now our present source . . . by means of His Holy Spirit.

And we do not have to keep on suffering, all the time, in order to have that same love in us, which was in Christ on the cross; Jesus on the cross is the same Jesus who did a lot of things which were not suffering . . . including having very precious sharing with ladies who knew how to relate with Jesus > His love which made Him able to so suffer also made Him able to share so specially with certain ladies and men who knew how to relate with Jesus.

So, the love which made Him able to suffer as "a sweet-smelling aroma" can in us also make us able to relate sweetly with one another > "without complaining and disputing" > Philippians 2:13-16, all the time and not only while we suffer and might make sacrifices.

Therefore, of course, it is good to already be living in this love before we go into sufferings and death for Jesus. But this resurrection life of Jesus is for all the time, in pleasant time and suffering and dying well.

First off, thanks for taking the time to construct a careful reply.

As I ponder on your response and find much agreement and I wonder what my real question is

There is no doubt that the fact of the resurrection is the central pillar of our faith.

It is quite possible that I have stitched together a few threads and ended up with the wrong tartan.

So what am I really on about...

If you could extend patience with me a little more I will try to bring the matter to more clarity.

I conclude Paul was an intercessor - we are called to bare one another's burdens.

Paul would take on himself in the Spirit the burdens of his congregants. He was a compassionate man not just a hard liner as many think.

So how do we bare one another's burdens in prayer?

The Holy Spirit allows us to identify with the Compassion of Jesus for them as He experienced their sickness and suffering on the Cross.

So extending ones hand to minister healing should be in full confidence in what Jesus has done and is doing.

Has done... in that we remember that in His death He carried the condition we are praying for.

Is doing... in that at resurrection time not only was Jesus resurrected but the New Life and New Creation was established forever and we are trusting for the actualisation of that fact.

I don't think that we should rank order the crucifixion and the resurrection rather they are two beautiful events.

However the aspect that want to add is that God's Heaven is timeless and Jesus sits on the Throne with pierced hands.

This illustrates that the crucifixion is a timeless event that spans history and this explains the salvation of the faithful Jews before Jesus.

It also establishes the matter of the Cross 'happening now'

So how does this work ?

The Cross established a Spiritual reality of a New Creation that is no less real than the physical chair we sit on.

In my journey when stress is high I physically kneel before the Cross as an event in the present and release the matter to Jesus. This has consistently yielded peace and release.

Now I am happy that my musings are subject to the filter of Scripture but not some denominational theology. Frankly I think all denominations carry some truths better than others but none are perfect - rather like a rainbow displays beautiful colours yet each colour is only part of the white light of truth.

So back the the verse in the OP

I believe Paul in the Spirit takes on burdens in intercession and in doing so participates in the sufferings of Jesus on the Cross for the needy. I believe this is what he means when he refers to 'filling up in his flesh' Now this work is not complete until Jesus returns so in that sense he refers to what is lacking as what is yet to be appropriated.

Now I don't think there is anything 'Mystical' about this in the sense of it being unfounded in Scripture bearing in mind that the Scripture itself refers to the mysteries of God.

So there it is - I think we have in may traditions lost sight of the centrality of the Cross in real life. This however is not meant to diminish the glory of the Resurrection an any way.