Colossians 1:24... some thoughts.

[Minister Monardo]

The woman was silent for a moment. Then she asked the silversmith, “How do you know when the silver is fully refined?”
He smiled at her and answered, “Oh, that’s easy. When I see my image in it.”

Ezekiel 22:18 Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to Me; they are all bronze, tin, iron, and lead, in the midst of a furnace; they have become dross from silver.

Consider the dross of silver. Bronze, tin, iron and lead
all have intrinsic value. Therefore the refiner's fire
isn't just removing 'impurities' of sin, but the self-sufficiency
of personal ability that we hold onto as perceived to have value. Only then can we be "conformed to the image of the Son". This reaches into the depths of the inner man, and his secret thoughts.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Consider the dross of silver. Bronze, tin, iron and lead
all have intrinsic value. Therefore the refiner's fire
isn't just removing 'impurities' of sin, but the self-sufficiency
of personal ability that we hold onto as perceived to have value. Only then can we be "conformed to the image of the Son". This reaches into the depths of the inner man, and his secret thoughts.

And that would hearken back to the first passage I cited in regards to Paul's thorn in the flesh.



Paul’s Vision and His Thorn
...
6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say, 7 or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.

 

[Carl Emerson]

@Pavel Mosko
Although there is good material in your response they don't seem to touch the issues I raised.

Going back to the OP and the verse...

24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church...

My take is that his ministry was Cross centred.

The closest comment to the matter at hand was from @Minister Monardo but he did not give a scripture reference.

By the authority we receive from the Cross,
we present our supplications before the Throne.

My perspective on ministry is not so much focused on personally being a 'channel' of His power but rather my faith is in what He does despite me.

In that sense I am less concerned about 'gifts' They may or may not function, that is not my main concern.

What I am attaining to is to participate in the sufferings of Christ made for the person in need. By this healing comes and the Body of Christ is blessed.

Hopefully I am making myself more clear.

My personal walk has been paved with tears and as I take my turn to present the 'peoples prayer' at church I am choking up and returning to my seat weeping.

My immediate church authority embraces my prophetic disposition and is very encouraging so there is no awkwardness.

I have taken a risk here in sharing this openly but there is a resource of maturity among members so I hope good will come from my disclosure.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

@Carl Emerson

I think I did a pretty good job at answering the question. Remember what you were asking about as far as "how could Christ's sufferings be lacking?"


As far as channeling type language goes.... I was completely referencing the Bible as well as other classical Christian theology. Remember, the entire concept of Holiness in the Bible comes from the worship of the tabernacle and temple in which there are various instruments of service set apart exclusively for the worship of Yahweh.

Not only that, saint Paul references similar concepts in his writings in places like 1 Cor 3, 2 Timothy 2 etc.


Now granted the way I talk about it, describe it, etc. might not be your cup of tea compared to some other teacher's approach. But then again, I sort of do what I do based on the past, especially what I believe to be the short comings of some of the past churches I have been affiliated with. So to each his own I guess, just as long as you have some kind of basic biblical and orthodox Christian rationale for what you are doing, teaching etc.

 

[Carl Emerson]

@Carl Emerson

I think I did a pretty good job at answering the question. Remember what you were asking about as far as "how could Christ's sufferings be lacking?"


As far as channeling type language goes.... I was completely referencing the Bible as well as other classical Christian theology. Remember, the entire concept of Holiness in the Bible comes from the worship of the tabernacle and temple in which there are various instruments of service set apart exclusively for the worship of Yahweh.

Not only that, saint Paul references similar concepts in his writings in places like 1 Cor 3, 2 Timothy 2 etc.


Now granted the way I talk about it, describe it, etc. might not be your cup of tea compared to some other teacher's approach. But then again, I sort of do what I do based on the past, especially what I believe to be the short comings of some of the past churches I have been affiliated with. So to each his own I guess, just as long as you have some kind of basic biblical and orthodox Christian rationale for what you are doing, teaching etc.

Hey - I appreciate you contribution, I am hoping to get various perspectives I think this is a very important topic to work through.

 

[com7fy8]

Paul's Ministry to the Church
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church...

==================================

Here is an insight into what Paul is meaning here.

How can Christs afflictions be lacking ???

Well, I think I have avoided trying to understand this. But now I'll try

He is clear that he rejoices in his sufferings which are for the sake of us. He goes through things as he ministers the gospel. I think this is pretty simple to understand. He suffers because of his love for us and ministry to us.

But what about "filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body"?

Well . . . this has to do with what is "for the sake of" us the body of Jesus? I see how in order to keep ministering the gospel, there will be suffering which is in the process. So, more such ministering, while suffering, means more spreading of the gospel.

Perhaps he could simply mean he knows there is more suffering ahead, and this suffering will accompany his labor for Jesus and His word.

And what I get now is, that if the suffering is for the sake of Jesus, there will be grace given to Paul, in order for him through the suffering so he keeps on and does what God has him doing. However, the grace helping him through his suffering can multi-task for also ministering God's word . . . and spreading on from Paul to conform us to the image of Jesus.

So, grace of God is different than food; God in His grace can bless Paul, but then flow on to us to bless us also. It is not like food that Paul might eat and then what is not food moves out of Paul and elsewhere!! But the grace to Paul is God working, and the same God also working in us.

So, therefore, the suffering itself does not do anything; however the grace coming to help Paul in his suffering is grace also able to minister to others to change them to become like Jesus.

So, the grace of the sufferings is what works, and Jesus does guarantee how we will suffer while laboring for Him. So, may be we could say that if suffering really is for Jesus, then such suffering is a minister of His grace . . . like to how we are ministers of grace and our prayer can minister His grace. There is suffering that can, too.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Well, I think I have avoided trying to understand this. But now I'll try

He is clear that he rejoices in his sufferings which are for the sake of us. He goes through things as he ministers the gospel. I think this is pretty simple to understand. He suffers because of his love for us and ministry to us.

But what about "filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body"?

Well . . . this has to do with what is "for the sake of" us the body of Jesus? I see how in order to keep ministering the gospel, there will be suffering which is in the process. So, more such ministering means more spreading of the gospel.

Perhaps he could simply mean he knows there is more suffering ahead, and this suffering will accompany his labor for Jesus and His word.

And what I get now is, that if the suffering is for the sake of Jesus, there will be grace given to Paul, in order for him to keep on and do what God has him doing. The grace helping him with his suffering can multi-task for also ministering God's word . . . and for conforming us to the image of Jesus.

So, therefore, the suffering itself does not do anything; however the grace coming to help Paul in his suffering is grace also able to minister to others to change them to become like Jesus.

So, the grace of the sufferings is what works. But Jesus does guarantee how we will suffer while laboring for Him. So, may be we could say that if suffering really is for Jesus, then such suffering is a minister of His grace . . . like to how we are ministers of grace and our prayer can minister His grace. There is suffering that can, too.

Thanks for giving this your best shot... appreciated.

 

[com7fy8]

Thanks for giving this your best shot... appreciated.

I think I fixed it up a bit after you quoted it.

One thing I get is that grace can minister right through us to others. So, yes maybe we could say we can be "channels" of God's grace. Remember how Jesus felt virtue coming out of Him to heal that woman with the flow of blood. So, I see it could be that grace ministered right through Jesus to that woman.

And therefore, I can see, as much as we grow in Jesus in us (Galatians 4:19, Ephesians 6:10), we can somehow minister grace right through ourselves. And it is written >

"As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." (1 Peter 4:10)

So, we can receive a gift, and this gift in us can pass on grace to one another, I see. So, this could be through us . . . channeled.

Also, we have 2 Corinthians 1:3-4 >

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God." (2 Corinthians 1:3-4)

I see how this could mean that God's grace of comfort first comes to us, and then passes on to comfort someone else . . . "in any trouble", God says is possible. And so it is channeled: God's very own, right through us, blessing us and then blessing the next person.

And now I get this > Paul could fill up was lacking of the afflictions of Jesus. Perhaps this means that Paul needed to grow stronger in the grace of the sufferings so he could moreso pass on this grace.

So, what could be lacking might not be the physical suffering, but there could be a lack in grace > he needed to grow more in the grace of the sufferings, so he could minister ever more strongly the grace and its comfort.

Plus it could mean also that he needed to go on to more sufferings which would minister the gospel.

So, the lacking could be in both the physical sufferings and the grace he had while going through those sufferings. He lacked growth of grace and also lacked opportunity of suffering which could minister that grace.

And this is our example. Paul wants us likewise to grow stronger in grace so that when we comfort others "in any trouble", we are stronger for ministering to them.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think I fixed it up a bit after you quoted it.

One thing I get is that grace can minister right through us to others. So, yes maybe we could say we can be "channels" of God's grace. Remember how Jesus felt virtue coming out of Him to heal that woman with the flow of blood. So, I see it could be that grace ministered right through Jesus to that woman.

And therefore, I can see, as much as we grow in Jesus in us (Galatians 4:19, Ephesians 6:10), we can somehow minister grace right through ourselves. And it is written >

"As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." (1 Peter 4:10)

So, we can receive a gift, and this gift in us can pass on grace to one another, I see. So, this could be through us . . . channeled.

Also, we have 2 Corinthians 1:3-4 >

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God." (2 Corinthians 1:3-4)

I see how this could mean that God's grace of comfort first comes to us, and then passes on to comfort someone else . . . "in any trouble", God says is possible. And so it is channeled: God's very own, right through us, blessing us and then blessing the next person.

And now I get this > Paul could fill up was lacking of the afflictions of Jesus. Perhaps this means that Paul needed to grow stronger in the grace of the sufferings so he could moreso pass on this grace.

So, what could be lacking might not be the physical suffering, but there could be a lack in grace > he needed to grow more in the grace of the sufferings, so he could minister ever more strongly the grace and its comfort.

Plus it could mean also that he needed to go on to more sufferings which would minister the gospel.

So, the lacking could be in both the physical sufferings and the grace he had while going through those sufferings. He lacked growth of grace and also lacked opportunity of suffering which could minister that grace.

And this is our example. Paul wants us likewise to grow stronger in grace so that when we comfort others "in any trouble", we are stronger for ministering to them.

Yes thanks again - lets keep exploring this...

 

[The Liturgist]

I feel that the resource of the Cross is little understood or taught.

Depending on the church in question, this can be the case. I feel like non-denominational and liberal mainline churches in many cases de-emphasize the Cross, whereas Lutheran churches, the various Roman Catholic churches, traditional Anglicanism, and the Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental) and Assyrian churches place the strongest emphasis on it.

In particular, the Coptic Orthodox have an extremely strong devotion to the Cross. When a Coptic priest or bishop delivers a sermon, he holds a hand cross, and he also uses the hand cross at other key points in the liturgy. Coptic monks will also draw a cross, usually a simplified Jerusalem cross, at the top center of a piece of paper before writing on it.

Also, for practical reasons, so that their children are not at risk of being abducted and appropriated by Muslims, many Copts in their infancy or youth have a small cross tattooed on the back of their right hand where the base of the thumb meets the wrist. It is extremely discrete and for purposes of safety and identification among the larger Islamic population; Catholics in Bosnia do the same thing for similar reasons.

I like to see devotions to the Holy Cross, whether that is the Stations of the Cross or the veneration of the Cross and its relics, or churches constructed in a cruciform architectural pattern.

What I do not like to see are churches which do not have a cross on display in their sanctuaries, or featured in their logo or branding, or prominently displayed on their building.

 

[The Liturgist]

My perspective on ministry is not so much focused on personally being a 'channel' of His power but rather my faith is in what He does despite me.

This is a most pious sentiment.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Further to this is the realisation that the Cross is a timeless event yet anchored at a particular point in history.

When we are reaching out to the suffering then and sharing in His sufferings for the infirm, we have confidence from the realisation that the Cross event is occurring as we pray.

I feel that the resource of the Cross is little understood or taught.

Jesus says on the cross..."it is finished"...this then we believe...He redeemed us.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Colossians 1:24
English Standard Version

Paul's Ministry to the Church
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church...

==================================

Here is an insight into what Paul is meaning here.

How can Christs afflictions be lacking ???

Paul was deeply into intercession and understood the centrality of the Cross in all his effort to serve His Saviour and share in His sufferings.

What happened on the Cross was very profound, impacting all of creation and humanity.

Paul realised that the ministers of Christ have a calling and purpose to enter into the the work of the Cross with Christ, sharing in His sufferings for the sake of His Body the Church...

Jesus carried all our sickness, cares and burdens but the healing comes as we share with Jesus on behalf of the suffering, reaching out with His Love and healing.

So the grace to meet the healing needs of his brothers and sisters, although complete on the Cross, was yet to be appropriated and completed by those reach out with healing love in His name.

So reaching out in full confidence in what is completed on the Cross is central to healing ministry. This ministry will not be complete until He returns.

I also think this verse should be central in understanding the Ministry of Intercession.

Your thoughts appreciated.

This passage may give some insights to your passage...
Philippians 1:29:
29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,
...similar thought here...
II Corinthians 5:13-15:
13 If we are “out of our mind,” as some say, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
...and our trials for refinement of our faith...
I Peter 1:6-7:
6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.--NIV 1984

 

[Carl Emerson]

Jesus says on the cross..."it is finished"...this then we believe...He redeemed us.

Yes in that instant His redeeming blood was poured out right across history, past present and future.

 

[Carl Emerson]

By the authority we receive from the Cross,
we present our supplications before the Throne.

Please give a reference for this quote thanks...

 

[Minister Monardo]

Please give a reference for this quote thanks...

From Saturday night post #11
Life is found at the Throne
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Romans 5:10 For when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

You posted many times Saturday night without a single
verse to back up anything you said. I posted several
times with scriptures each time. Now you are asking for
something that was already posted. Since you need
as much help as possible, I will provide a few more.
In Louisiana, we call that lagniappe.
Ephesians 3:
11 According to the eternal purpose which
he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Ephesians 5:
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
If you want to discuss further, go back to the beginning of your speculations, provide some scriptures to back up
"some thoughts", you have shared, and occasionally
acknowledge posts that are supported by scriptures,
rather than wait a day and a half and act like it didn't
happen.

 

[Minister Monardo]

I am not sure what your issue is, maybe other readers could comment...

You talkin' to me?
You, talkin' to me?

 

[Minister Monardo]

Further to this is the realisation that the Cross is a timeless event yet anchored at a particular point in history.

Scriptures?

 

[Minister Monardo]

I think the danger is that in our churches we can 'formulate' these matters and loose the reality and potency of them.

Care to elaborate, with some Bible verses?

 

[Minister Monardo]

So in some way we 'fill up in our flesh' Christs suffering for the individual, partnering in His compassion for them.

Scriptures?