Colossians 1:24... some thoughts.

[Minister Monardo]

Please explain what you mean...

Would you respond to posts#2, 3, 8, 11, 16

 

[Minister Monardo]

I am not sure what your issue is, maybe other readers could comment...

Okay, I am fully confident that post#17 was directed at
me, even though you were being a bit devious
by not directing the statement to anyone. Here's my reply.
Psalm 18:
25 With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful;
With a blameless man You will show Yourself blameless;
26 With the pure You will show Yourself pure;
And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd.

If you don't like me when I am being shrewd with the Anointing,
consider your ways...

 

[Minister Monardo]

My perspective on ministry is not so much focused on personally being a 'channel' of His power but rather my faith is in what He does despite me.

In that sense I am less concerned about 'gifts' They may or may not function, that is not my main concern.

What I am attaining to is to participate in the sufferings of Christ made for the person in need. By this healing comes and the Body of Christ is blessed.

Hopefully I am making myself more clear.

My personal walk has been paved with tears and as I take my turn to present the 'peoples prayer' at church I am choking up and returning to my seat weeping.

My immediate church authority embraces my prophetic disposition and is very encouraging so there is no awkwardness.

I have taken a risk here in sharing this openly but there is a resource of maturity among members so I hope good will come from my disclosure.

Not at all.
As long as you don't mind talking about yourself...

 

[Minister Monardo]

Yes in that instant His redeeming blood was poured out right across history, past present and future.

Scriptures? Isn't there something about Him
being the Lamb that was slain "before the foundation
of the world".

 

[Minister Monardo]

Depending on the church in question, this can be the case. I feel like non-denominational and liberal mainline churches in many cases de-emphasize the Cross, whereas Lutheran churches, the various Roman Catholic churches, traditional Anglicanism, and the Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental) and Assyrian churches place the strongest emphasis on it.

In particular, the Coptic Orthodox have an extremely strong devotion to the Cross. When a Coptic priest or bishop delivers a sermon, he holds a hand cross, and he also uses the hand cross at other key points in the liturgy. Coptic monks will also draw a cross, usually a simplified Jerusalem cross, at the top center of a piece of paper before writing on it.

Thank you for bringing some specifics to what otherwise
was just another "most churches" comment.

 

[Minister Monardo]

This passage may give some insights to your passage..

Exellent citations.
What Paul says is in accordance with the word
of the Lord.
John 15:20 Remember the word that I said to you, A servant is not greater than his master. If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

 

[Carl Emerson]

From Saturday night post #11
Life is found at the Throne
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Romans 5:10 For when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

You posted many times Saturday night without a single
verse to back up anything you said. I posted several
times with scriptures each time. Now you are asking for
something that was already posted. Since you need
as much help as possible, I will provide a few more.
In Louisiana, we call that lagniappe.
Ephesians 3:
11 According to the eternal purpose which
he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Ephesians 5:
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
If you want to discuss further, go back to the beginning of your speculations, provide some scriptures to back up
"some thoughts", you have shared, and occasionally
acknowledge posts that are supported by scriptures,
rather than wait a day and a half and act like it didn't
happen.

Welcome back MM...

So your quote wasn't scripture - no problem.

I really like the truth of it, and that is what counts.

I guess you have picked up on the fact that I don't play 'scripture ping-pong' even when my grasp of the Scripture is considerable.

I rather look for wisdom which comes from discussing rather than incessant quoting.

My position relates to three things.

Firstly I don't believe that Scripture holds the sum total of all God has said because He said heaps before writing was invented and Jesus made it quite clear that much of what He said and did was not recorded. Further Romans 1 indicates that He speaks through creation.

Secondly according to James 3:17 wisdom among other things is able to be discussed. So I don't take those who hesitate to engage in discussion too seriously.

Lastly I don't see any scriptural support that indicates God particularly endows scholars with authority to speak truth - which is not surprising given that we have many good scholars on CF who are not in agreement.

I would hope that this response might clear the air but I am not holding my breath.

I am pretty serious about what I believe but am open to being proved wrong when necessary. Since being on CF my perspectives have shifted on some subjects.

I am not hesitant to talk about my own experience and He told me to wait 40 years before sharing what I have learned. Now is the time and I humbly present what I have come to believe and know.

My journey have been a little different than most so I am not so much restrained by denominational or conventional thinking.

As for being captive to pride because I speak of myself at times - we would need then to hesitate to accept Paul who spoke of himself extensively.

So if we can cool our jets and stick to the topic that would be good.

Hey - if you feel anything I claim is contrary to scripture please feel free to bring a word of correction.

Thanks for your cooperation.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Why are you trying to impart some mystical,
spiritual power to a cursed thing?

I thought this comment was quite strange and I asked you about it.

Maybe we could discuss this ???

 

[Minister Monardo]

So if we can cool our jets and stick to the topic that would be good.

Hey - if you feel anything I claim is contrary to scripture please feel free to bring a word of correction.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Colossians 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church.
The topic as I understood it was you felt Paul is referring
to intercessory prayer here. I stated the view that since
he refers to "sufferings and afflictions in the flesh", that
he was referring to what Christ told His disciples:
John 15:20 Remember the word that I said to you, A servant is not greater than his master. If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
I then stated that there are also afflictions of the mind to
consider, and suggested as an example the garden of
Gethsemane, where the Lord invited His disciples to
tarry with Him in prayer.
Matthew 26:
40 Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter:
What! Could you not watch with Me one hour?
41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation.
The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Paul was without a doubt a man of intense prayer, and
a fine example of what the Lord is looking for in those
who would tarry with Him.
As the Lord's praying in Gethsemane is described.
Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared.
I then informed all of the word that is normally used to describe that praying, 'supplications'. I have not yet found afflictions used in regards to prayer, on the contrary, it is trials and persecutions. Then we have these scriptures.
1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving
of thanks be made for all men.
I was inspired to post this thread to further present
this discussion on the nature of intercessory prayer.
Intercessory Prayers Offered With Tears and Supplications
You also stated that this type of prayer is centered on
the cross, as a source of power that is timeless. I
suggested that prayer should be directed to the throne.
Supported by scriptures.
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Colossians 3:
1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. (again, the throne)
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.

Since we are granted access to the throne of God in view
of the veil being rent asunder to the most Holy Place.
Ephesians 3:
11 According to the eternal purpose which
he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Ephesians 5:
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
I then summarized the totality of these verses with this
statement:
"By the authority we receive from the Cross,
we present our supplications before the Throne."
You replied by questioning the scriptural nature
of the statement! After which, you state that you
don't like to volley scriptures, so I found that position
a bit contradictory. You do seem to be promoting
yourself as someone who speaks directly by the
wisdom from above, and not in need, like most
of us, to support our statements with verses that
provide 2 or 3 witnesses for verification.
Does that about sum it up?

 

[Minister Monardo]

I thought this comment was quite strange and I asked you about it.

Maybe we could discuss this ???

You posted this:
Further to this is the realisation that the Cross is a timeless event yet anchored at a particular point in history.
When we are reaching out to the suffering then and sharing in His sufferings for the infirm, we have confidence from the realisation that the Cross event is occurring as we pray.
I feel that the resource of the Cross is little understood or taught.

I responded, with this explanation.
Why are you trying to impart some mystical,
spiritual power to a cursed thing?
Galatians 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse
of the law, having become a curse for us, for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”.

Life is found at the Throne
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Romans 5:10 For when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
He is Alive!
The cross is empty, and has become like the brazen serpent, that the children of Israel turned into an idol.
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up.

Hezekiah's Revival
2 Kings 18:4 He removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan.

And no, at this time I do not feel the need to further
analyze the relationship between the brazen serpent,
and the tree of crucifixion. That is something you can
further research if you are truly interested.

 

[Michie]

Here is something I ran across:


Question:
What is the meaning of Colossians 1:24?

Answer:
St. Paul writes, “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.”

What this doesn’t mean is that Christ’s death on the cross was incomplete with regard to redeeming the whole human race and reuniting it with God. There is nothing that anyone can add to the infinite value of the cross.

However, there is an aspect of Christ’s suffering that is not complete—namely, the application of the merits of Christ’s Passion to individual souls. It is this aspect of redemption (the subjective dimension) of which Paul speaks. According to A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture, “[Paul’s sufferings] are the vehicle for conveying the Passion to the hearts and souls of men, and in this way they bring completeness to the Passion in an external way.” This is not the only time that Paul refers to his own sufferings in the service of Christ as Christ’s afflictions in his own flesh (see 2 Cor. 1:5, 4:10; Phil. 3:10).

Continued below.
How Can Christ’s Sufferings Lack Anything?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Colossians 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church.
The topic as I understood it was you felt Paul is referring
to intercessory prayer here. I stated the view that since
he refers to "sufferings and afflictions in the flesh", that
he was referring to what Christ told His disciples:
John 15:20 Remember the word that I said to you, A servant is not greater than his master. If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
I then stated that there are also afflictions of the mind to
consider, and suggested as an example the garden of
Gethsemane, where the Lord invited His disciples to
tarry with Him in prayer.
Matthew 26:
40 Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter:
What! Could you not watch with Me one hour?
41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation.
The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Paul was without a doubt a man of intense prayer, and
a fine example of what the Lord is looking for in those
who would tarry with Him.
As the Lord's praying in Gethsemane is described.
Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared.
I then informed all of the word that is normally used to describe that praying, 'supplications'. I have not yet found afflictions used in regards to prayer, on the contrary, it is trials and persecutions. Then we have these scriptures.
1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving
of thanks be made for all men.
I was inspired to post this thread to further present
this discussion on the nature of intercessory prayer.
Intercessory Prayers Offered With Tears and Supplications
You also stated that this type of prayer is centered on
the cross, as a source of power that is timeless. I
suggested that prayer should be directed to the throne.
Supported by scriptures.
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Colossians 3:
1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. (again, the throne)
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.

Since we are granted access to the throne of God in view
of the veil being rent asunder to the most Holy Place.
Ephesians 3:
11 According to the eternal purpose which
he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Ephesians 5:
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
I then summarized the totality of these verses with this
statement:
"By the authority we receive from the Cross,
we present our supplications before the Throne."
You replied by questioning the scriptural nature
of the statement! After which, you state that you
don't like to volley scriptures, so I found that position
a bit contradictory. You do seem to be promoting
yourself as someone who speaks directly by the
wisdom from above, and not in need, like most
of us, to support our statements with verses that
provide 2 or 3 witnesses for verification.
Does that about sum it up?

No...

Wisdom is lacking among those who can only present Scripture and refuse discussion.

Your last paragraph is rather disingenuous - It would be better to stick to the topic rather than take pot shots at the poster.

What I do see is how you view the Cross as a source of authority in ministry.

This is what I am exploring and appreciate your comment.

One issue behind this discussion is whether the Cross is a timeless event. (did the impact of the cross span all of history or not?)

I don't see the disciples ministering healing and miracles with respect to the throne in heaven, rather it is an expression of the kingdom of God on earth.

I guess the Church is a continuation of the work Jesus started with the disciples down here.

As to intercession Paul was a man of prayer and I would expect that when he moved in the miraculous it was on a foundation of his intercession.

In intercession one is given an ability from God to feel the pain Jesus experienced on the Cross for the person in need. This is also part of sharing in His sufferings.

You are welcome to discuss further and bring scriptural objections as you feel is needed to steady the ship as we explore the waters.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So being practical -

I am being asked to pray for a suffering brother.

Do I make reference to the matter of Jesus carrying his sufferings on the Cross?

Do I speak comfort and reach out as His hand to heal based on the matter of His bearing our burdens and sickness on the Tree?

 

[Carl Emerson]

One more point - on the Cross Jesus broke the Curse of the Law which according the Deut 28 included many sicknesses.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Why are you trying to impart some mystical,
spiritual power to a cursed thing?
Galatians 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse
of the law, having become a curse for us, for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”.

Life is found at the Throne

Does this mean His redeeming Blood should have no interest to us ?

Are you uncomfortable then with having a cross visible at a place of worship?

 

[Minister Monardo]

Wisdom is lacking among those who can only present Scripture and refuse discussion.

Wisdom is lacking in those who pursue it by
study and discussion, rather in the secret place
of the sanctuary. What we receive from the Lord
we present to the body of Christ. Every seeker
of wisdom from above can partake in this ministering.
As to the role of discussion, that is up for discussion
what many call discussion is unfruitful.

Your last paragraph is rather disingenuous - It would be better to stick to the topic rather than take pot shots at the poster.

What you are calling disengenuous and a pot shot the
Law, the Lord, and Paul all agree as to be doctrine
"let every matter be established at the mouth of 2 or 3
witnesses". I often use a dozen scriptures in a thread
to fully establish a strong scriptural context for the
discussion that you claim to value. You've been on
my threads, you can verify what I am saying, and
yet, you, like many rate the post, and move on.
So where is the discussion? The link you post to
one of your threads? That too is disengenuous.
I did NOT take pot shots at you on this thread,
I provided a scriptural basis for comparing the
afflictions of the flesh, which are inevitable in
public ministry, and the idea of supplications
in private prayer. Many need to make that
distinction. You chose to ignore my posts,
until you stated that I had issues. Again, you
did so without addressing me directly, just
posted words with the solicitation from comments
from others. That too was disengenuous.

What I do see is how you view the Cross as a source of authority in ministry.
This is what I am exploring and appreciate your comment.
One issue behind this discussion is whether the Cross is a timeless event. (did the impact of the cross span all of history or not?)

This was also addressed, and I will re-state for you.
The cross was a singular event on earth that displays
what the Father accomplished before the world began.
The blood of sprinkling, which establishes the elect,
by the Lamb that was slain is a timeless event, by which
we continue to preach the Gospel as the power of God
the Father for salvation. The world sees what occured
2000 years ago and asks "where is the promise of His
coming". Believers see the Lamb slain even before
Abraham told Isaac "God Himself will provide the Lamb",
and continue "pressing toward the goal". This is to see
with our spiritual eyes who Christ is, what His Father
accomplished through Him and where He is NOW.
Hence Paul writes:
2 Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
While you insist on continuing to see the crucified Christ,
I see the Lamb of God that took away the sins of the
world, seated at the right hand of power in the heavenlies.
This is why Paul wrote
Colossians 3:
1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.

I don't see the disciples ministering healing and miracles with respect to the throne in heaven, rather it is an expression of the kingdom of God on earth.

What the apostles, and we accomplish as an expression
of the kingdom of God on earth flows from the throne
in heaven, this is why Jesus said:
John 1:51 And He said to him, Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.
We can manifest the kingdom of heaven on earth even as
we pray "let your kingdom come and your Will be done
on earth, as it is in heaven", and even as we make inter-
cession for others.
We do this because Jesus promised to send us the Holy
Spirit, by which we can minister in the same capacity
as His disciples. This is fully explored on the thread I
originated on John 13-16 this past week.
I will quote one verse for now, and move on.
John 14:12 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

As to intercession Paul was a man of prayer and I would expect that when he moved in the miraculous it was on a foundation of his intercession.

Established.

In intercession one is given an ability from God to feel the pain Jesus experienced on the Cross for the person in need. This is also part of sharing in His sufferings.

This is where you are going to have to bring in some scriptures to support such a statement. I have already objected to such a line of reason, and you can downplay the knowledge of scripture, but I have already responded in depth to this. Partaking of Christ's afflictions is not vicariously experiencing the Cross. It is the fulfillment of what Christ and the apostles have assured us we will endure at the hands of those who hate God. "If they persecuted me they will persecute you" This is the suffering way, which marks our walk here on earth. As to the intercessions of Christ, I have already directed you twice on this thread to Gethsemane where He invites His disciples to tarry with Him in prayers, intercessions, supplications and the Christlike surrender of "not my will but yours be done".

You are welcome to discuss further and bring scriptural objections as you feel is needed to steady the ship as we explore the waters.

As I have been doing this for the past two days, I feel I
have exhausted myself against someone who has kicked against the goads of the Anointing at every step. I will leave
it to you to review my minimum 6 posts to decide if in any way I have expressed the topic "more perfectly".

 

[Minister Monardo]

Does this mean His redeeming Blood should have no interest to us ?

The blood of Christ is made effectual by the eternal Spirit.
Hebrews 9:
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Paul wrote:
Romans 1:
3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
Christ took on flesh to fulfill the scriptures, and to die for us.
The resurrection and the ascension establishes Him as the only begotten Son of God with power by the Spirit.

Are you uncomfortable then with having a cross visible at a place of worship?

You are wearing me out with these questions Carl. Are you
a teacher in Israel and need all these things explained to you? I have done so for the forum sake. As to this last and final question, I am not made uncomfortable by any of these things, I only value the things that edify. All things are legal, but not all things edify. Everyone of the full Judeo-Christian roots and having a knowledge of the ten commandments knows that ours is a religion without earthly images. No, I experience no value added by a big cross on a wall. But offended, get serious. I grew up Catholic. LOL Our church
had a humongous cross, with Jesus attached. As a child
in elementary school, that WAS discomforting!

 

[Minister Monardo]

One more point - on the Cross Jesus broke the Curse of the Law which according the Deut 28 included many sicknesses.

Isaiah 53! Elementary my dear Emerson.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Do I make reference to the matter of Jesus carrying his sufferings on the Cross?
Do I speak comfort and reach out as His hand to heal based on the matter of His bearing our burdens and sickness on the Tree?

You bet! That is one on one ministry on earth.
NOT one on one intercession from your secret place,
to the Throne in heaven.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Here is something I ran across:


Question:
What is the meaning of Colossians 1:24?

Answer:
St. Paul writes, “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.”

What this doesn’t mean is that Christ’s death on the cross was incomplete with regard to redeeming the whole human race and reuniting it with God. There is nothing that anyone can add to the infinite value of the cross.

However, there is an aspect of Christ’s suffering that is not complete—namely, the application of the merits of Christ’s Passion to individual souls. It is this aspect of redemption (the subjective dimension) of which Paul speaks. According to A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture, “[Paul’s sufferings] are the vehicle for conveying the Passion to the hearts and souls of men, and in this way they bring completeness to the Passion in an external way.” This is not the only time that Paul refers to his own sufferings in the service of Christ as Christ’s afflictions in his own flesh (see 2 Cor. 1:5, 4:10; Phil. 3:10).

Continued below.
How Can Christ’s Sufferings Lack Anything?

I was going to refer to excatlt what that same commentary said. You beat me to it.

The Passion is sufficient. But our sufferings have value, we can apply our sufferings for others. We 'offer up' our sufferings. That's a phrase I never hear from the evangelical world, where I don't think Colossians 1:24 makes a lot of sense. Does it for them?