Col 2 does not condemn the Sabbath or Scripture

BobRyan · Jan 25, 2016

bugkiller said:
Maybe you should read your references above.

bugkiller

thanks -- don't mind if I do.

Col 2:4-23 points to the fact that the certificate of debt is paid and that we should not "make stuff up" that is not in the Bible as did the Jews in Mark 2 and Mark 7 and in Titus 1.

4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument. 5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.

6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

=====================

In Col 2 - Paul condemns the "man quotes himself" form of religious truth - and upholds the Bible.

bugkiller · Jan 25, 2016

BobRyan said:
thanks -- don't mind if I do.

Col 2:4-23 points to the fact that the certificate of debt is paid and that we should not "make stuff up" that is not in the Bible as did the Jews in Mark 2 and Mark 7 and in Titus 1.

4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument. 5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.

6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

=====================

In Col 2 - Paul condemns the "man quotes himself" form of religious truth - and upholds the Bible.

Then if you're really interested in the truth I suggest some serious study instead of finding something you think supports your idea. You use the Bible as a quote mine.

bugkiller

BobRyan · Jan 26, 2016

TNIV
14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Holman
14 He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross.

English Standard
14 by canceling the record of debt .

NASB
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

BobRyan · Jan 26, 2016

bugkiller said:
You use the Bible as a quote mine.
bugkiller

you "quote you" as a quote mine.

I accept the Bible as it reads.

BobRyan · Jan 26, 2016

bugkiller said:
Oops! did you say somewhere you didn't completely agree? Has it been pointed out to you they even said the Sabbath has been changed fro Saturday to Sunday? Have you forgotten I even quoted one of your sources saying Saturday was merely their day off?
bugkiller

some folks think this might be a post written just today - but in fact it was written a while back. Here is one from Feb 2015

BobRyan said:
Ok that is all well and good - but the thread title says that these obvious pro-Ten Commandment facts in the Bible are also affirmed by pro-Sunday scholarship.

How can that possibly be?

First a summary of the pro-Sunday scholarship statements affirming the TEN Commandments.

Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.

Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.

1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

That quote said -

1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

Bob S · Jan 27, 2016

BobRyan said:
some folks think this might be a post written just today - but in fact it was written a while back. Here is one from Feb 2015

That quote said -

1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

Again, the 10 do not even make a dent in all moral issues The 10 only have 9 moral issues. I wish you would quit writing untruths.

BobRyan · Jan 27, 2016

Bob S said:
Again, the 10 do not even make a dent in all moral issues The 10 only have 9 moral issues. .

Sadly for your wild speculation at that point - James 2 condemns it and so does Christ in Matt 5 -- neither one of them allow for downsizing God's Commandments - and interestingly even your own pro-Sunday scholars condemn it.

Bob S · Jan 28, 2016

BobRyan said:
Sadly for your wild speculation at that point - James 2 condemns it and so does Christ in Matt 5 -- neither one of them allow for downsizing God's Commandments - and interestingly even your own pro-Sunday scholars condemn it.

Ho! Ho! If that is the case then, as you know, Jesus was not referring to just the 10. If the law is not downsized then once again why are you not observing all the 613 commands. You are not allowed to pick and choose. You box yourself in corner and it is so obvious you do not understand or do not care. The truth does not jive with your preconceived ideas.

If you would only recognize that you have bound yourself to a couple of old cold stones, and I should add ellen White, that were/are the ministry of death 2Cor3 and all of her books, when you could be responding to the direction of the Holy Spirit. Millions of SDAs are seeing the Light and are running from Adventism. The only place the church has any inroads are countries with populations that are illiterate. Most of those converts are in the dark about the history of the church and the true ellen. You boast big numbers, but the churches do not support the big numbers. The SDA school system is falling apart because of the half hearted members do not believe most of the garbage the church teaches. Less than 30% pay an "honest" tithe. Boy is honest a misnomer. Honest, the whole system of Adventist tithing is dishonest. God didn't require from the Israelite tithing system what the church requires yet the poor brainwashed that remain "faithful" gravel to divvy up. This should, but it probably won't, tell you something. Oh yes, go flying to ol ellen where she was told that bright lights would go out, She had an excuse for most everything.

BobRyan · Jan 29, 2016

- D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

------------------------------------------

Bob S said:
If you would only recognize that you have bound yourself to a couple of old cold stones, and I should add ellen White, that were/are the ministry of death 2Cor3 and all of her books, when you could be responding to the direction of the Holy Spirit. Millions of SDAs are ...

Hint - Moody was not SDA... neither was C.H. Spurgeon... neither the "Westminster Confession of Faith" -- neither the RCC. Your own pro-sunday sources refute the attack you make against God's Law.

seeing the Light and are running from Adventism.

The SDA church in North America is one of the fastest grown North American churches. And world wide has grown by over 400% since 1980 --

The only place the church has any inroads are countries with populations that are illiterate.

When we get to heaven we will see what those saints think of the way you put them down - as the SDA church has "gone into all the world and preached the Gospel" -- which you now claim is a "bad thing".

Perhaps this is the "last resort" of your desperate argument.

BobRyan · Jan 29, 2016

As we saw in the OP -- Oct 8, 2015 #1

One Catholic Author - of a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism - after Vatican II describes it this way

=========================

Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
================================================

One Catholic poster on this section of the board describes it this way.

Open Heart said: ↑
It is the transferring of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the Lord's Day (Sunday).

I know you don't like it that we did this. That's fine.

bugkiller · Jan 29, 2016

BobRyan said:
TNIV
14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Holman
14 He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross.

English Standard
14 by canceling the record of debt .

NASB
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

You can't say I didn't tell you what the original Greek word means.

You still lose.

I still win.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Jan 29, 2016

BobRyan said:
you "quote you" as a quote mine.

I accept the Bible as it reads.

Oh really now....

bugkiller

bugkiller · Jan 29, 2016

BobRyan said:
some folks think this might be a post written just today - but in fact it was written a while back. Here is one from Feb 2015

That quote said -

1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

It can be so only when taken out of context.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Jan 29, 2016

Bob S said:
Again, the 10 do not even make a dent in all moral issues The 10 only have 9 moral issues. I wish you would quit writing untruths.

So do I.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Jan 29, 2016

BobRyan said:
- D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

------------------------------------------

Hint - Moody was not SDA... neither was C.H. Spurgeon... neither the "Westminster Confession of Faith" -- neither the RCC. Your own pro-sunday sources refute the attack you make against God's Law.

The SDA church in North America is one of the fastest grown North American churches. And world wide has grown by over 400% since 1980 --

When we get to heaven we will see what those saints think of the way you put them down - as the SDA church has "gone into all the world and preached the Gospel" -- which you now claim is a "bad thing".

Perhaps this is the "last resort" of your desperate argument.

None of the people taught nor practiced the 7th day Sabbath.

Once again you lose.

bugkiller

Bob S · Jan 31, 2016

BobRyan said:
- D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

Apparently ol Dwight didn't study the new covenant. and didn't read Gal 3 or 2Cor3. I can quote dozens of former Adventists pastors that will denounce the Sabbath as not being relevant to the new covenant. Why not try to prove your point with God's word instead of Babylonian pastors?

The SDA church in North America is one of the fastest grown North American churches. And world wide has grown by over 400% since 1980 --

According to Spectrum Magazine the SDA church is loosing members in the USA. Most people don't bother taking their names off the rolls. I notice you didn't comment about my statement about SDA schools even at the college level. And you refuse to ever comment about only 30% of Adventists paying a "faithful" tithe. The prophet said that those who do not pay a faithful tithe will loose their eternal inheritance. She also said the not one in twenty SDAs are ready to be translated. Most SDAs are bound for hell according to ellen.

When we get to heaven we will see what those saints think of the way you put them down - as the SDA church has "gone into all the world and preached the Gospel" -- which you now claim is a "bad thing".

There is a difference from preaching the Gospel and teaching Adventism The church does the latter.

Perhaps this is the "last resort" of your desperate argument.

No, I will spread the real Gospel truth until my dying breath. Amen!

roamer_1 · Jan 31, 2016

BobRyan said:
In this following post it is pointed out that in Col 2 - we do not find Paul condemning the Bible, no condemnation of eating, no condemnation of drinking - and no condemnation of God's Sabbath as we find it in the Ten Commandments.

Right.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Don't get caught up in other people's thinking, useless traditions, or the cares of life, but rather Follow 'Messiah'.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

So don't do what others do in regard to worship - You are part of the body, which is of Messiah - Do as Messiah would do. Follow HIM.

This is one of my favorite passages - Messiah is our example. Follow Him. Messiah is the Master, we are his disciples - We are to walk in his footsteps, copy his every gesture, do as HE did.

Yeshua kept Torah, to include Shabbat. I agree with you, brother, except in that it is not just the 10 commandments. We are to keep all the commandments - We are to keep Torah, according to the Father, and not follow any example except Yeshua. In that, we differ.

roamer_1 · Jan 31, 2016

bugkiller said:
How can this be when we have

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.I Tim 1

The law AKA the 10 Cs aren't a requirement of the Christian.
bugkiller

The LAW (actually 'instruction') is the whole of the law, not just the Big Two, not just the Big 10. There is no division. there is no separation between 'moral and cerimonial'... There cannot be. To add or remove from the whole body of it is sin.

But on that note - ALL law is made for the lawless. Those that naturally abide within it are not effected by it's penalties. If you are indeed a good citizen of your nation/state/county/city, the laws you live under (in theory anyway) do not effect your life - you are immune to them because you do not come under their curses. Abiding by the law, one is not under the law. But in that abiding, you are blessed by the peace and protection provided therewith.

roamer_1 · Jan 31, 2016

Bob S said:
Because when you say "I point out that in the actual chapter of Col 2- Paul deals not with destroying scripture, nor with declaring and end to eating and drinking, nor with declaring an end to the Sabbath." You have to say the same concerning the feasts and new moon celebrations.

PRECISELY SO.

Bob S said:
Yep, God told Moses to write everything in the Book of the Law. Breaking any part of the law is an act of disobedience for those of you who believe we are still under the law. Furthermore Jesus said not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the (Book of the) Law.

TRUE. 'Book of the Law' being the whole of Torah, not just Sinai. Not one jot or tittle will pass from it until ALL the Torah and the prophets are fulfilled. *ALL* is not fulfilled, hence the Torah is still necessarily in full effect.

Bob S said:
Your idea is pure disobedience to Jesus words. When you write on this forum the things you do you take responsibility in leading people down the wrong path. You have passed feast days and new moons from the law. In fact you have passed most of the law disobeying Jesus words not to pass one jot......

True. but then so do you, and so do I... Glass houses and all...

Bob S said:
Twisting the real meaning of scripture to try to make it fit into preconceived ideas is a slippery slope. Be very careful what you teach.

'Wickedness' - from the twisting of wicks - means twisting Torah.
'Iniquity' - Lawlessness - Being without the law... being without Torah.

Try reading the NT with that in mind. It is a caution.

Bob S · Jan 31, 2016

roamer_1 said:
PRECISELY SO.

TRUE. 'Book of the Law' being the whole of Torah, not just Sinai. Not one jot or tittle will pass from it until ALL the Torah and the prophets are fulfilled. *ALL* is not fulfilled, hence the Torah is still necessarily in full effect.

True. but then so do you, and so do I... Glass houses and all...

'Wickedness' - from the twisting of wicks - means twisting Torah.
'Iniquity' - Lawlessness - Being without the law... being without Torah.

Try reading the NT with that in mind. It is a caution.

Hi Roamer, it is refreshing to hear from you. You, of course, have taken the stand that we are Christians are subject to the law of Moses because all has not been accomplished, At least you are honest in your thought. Those who share your thoughts and then claim that most of the law does not pertain to Christians, but some of it does like Sabbath and meat laws are the ones that are only taking a half hearted approach to God's Word.

I presume you are not a believer in the writings of Paul. If you were you would have run across the scripture that tells us the law indeed ended with Jesus at the Cross. He did indeed fulfill the law and His work on Earth is finished. Satan has been defeated, Grace abounds and the Holy Spirit is with Christians, those who have accepted the promise. Jn 3:16 You, if you would read Paul's writings in 2Cor 3:7-11 Would show you again that the 10 were only temporary laws that guided the Israelites and now the Holy Spirit is our/ Every Christian's guide.

Do you also disbelieve John's writings where in 1Jn3: 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

We Christians are not under the law of Moses. The law of Moses was for only the Israelites. Their Sabbaths, weekly and yearly, pointed back to Israelite history. I am not an Israelite. Why should I celebrate being released from captivity from Egypt. I worship Jesus every day. Not only is He my Creator but also my Redeemer. Why would I need to celebrate Passover or their harvest celebrations? I am not subject to their Covenant. I am subject to Jesus Covenant, one that is not like the one given to Israel.

Please explain why you feel need to observe laws meant only for Israelites. Do you or your Messianic friends raise crops or animals. If so who do you take10 percent of those items to for the tithing laws? Who is doing the daily, weekly and yearly Sacrificing? Are you following the laws pertaining to the cloth you wear? How about eating beef gravy made with milk taken from cows? Labels, labels labels, are you reading those labels to see what you are eating in this (according to Messianics and SDAs) sinful World?

No my friend, I see that since we Christians are not under the law. We will be judged if we do not believe. Jn 5:24 24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

On the other hand you who live by the Law of Moses will be judged by the Book of the Law.

Col 2 does not condemn the Sabbath or Scripture

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