Col 2 condemns commandments of men - not commandments of God

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Creation Seventh day was not made for man. It was because God had rested from his work of creation.

You say this because you place Genesis 3 before Genesis 2. Read Genesis in the actual order it is written, and see how your conception here changes.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Paul was speaking of the annual Sabbaths - they were instituted from the start such that they are only celebrated via "sacrifice and offering" -- making them shadows of the coming of Christ

Paul is NOT speaking of the annual sabbaths. Mrs White told you that.


Paul is NOT speaking of when annual sabbaths were instituted from the start.

SDA fake scholars will tell you that.


Paul was NOT speaking of anything that is only celebrated via "sacrifice and offering" -- making them shadows of the coming of Christ.

You are making up your own nonsense.


But you are clever -- too clever for your real spiritual size. oukie. You are mistaken, when you think no one will notice how you try your utmost best to not let it show you in fact CHANGE THE TENSE of "is / are" to Past tense, 'was / were'. Of no avail; your façade, I have ripped off.


Because Paul is speaking of ONGOING "eating and drinking of Sabbaths' feast of Christ the Substance which things" PRESENTLY "ARE spectre of reflecting / promising / shadowing forth", the CHURCH, "holding to the Head", "CHRIST", who, SINCE "when God raised Him from the dead", has been "given to the Church as Head", "from Whom all the Body" of “Christ’s Own” 1:18, the CHURCH, NOW, in the PRESENT and in FUTURE, “and knit together” (in love 2:2), “holding to the Head", finds and will find, "Nourishment" / "Sustenance", "the Bread of Life", "BEING ministered", PRESENTLY AND IN FUTURE, “by joints and bands [of faith 2:12 Hosea 11:4; peace Ephesians 4:3; and charity Colossians 3:14], NOW and FOREVERMORE, “growing with the growth of God”!


NOT as “in times past” and remote from “Christ the Reality”, <<annual sabbaths>> _WERE_ <<celebrated via "sacrifice and offering">>.


BobRyan, get thee out of Babylon that great SDA city!

 

[BobRyan]

3. I never said that the moral laws and the one that isn't a moral law which is the sabbath wasn't in effect. I said they were not in effect of the Mosaic law and its ethic etc. for it was abolished at the cross

1. No text in all of scripture says the Commandments of God "were abolished at the cross" and we all know it.

Especially does 2 Corinthians 3:13 no say it. Thus it is still wrong to take God's name in vain -- and we all know it. Even the pro-sunday scholars know it.

It just does not get any easier than this.

2. You are "making up" your own Bible rule when slicing up the Ten Commandments to claim that one of them does not matter. Even Andy Stanley admits that doing such eisgesis - is "taking God's name in vain". If even he gets it - we can all get that easy Bible detail.

James 2 says that the moral law of God is based on "HE who SAID" and not based on "he who makes stuff up in a CF post" -- yet you find nothing at all to support your speculation - and merely post it.

3. the NEW Covenant writes the moral LAW of God known to Jeremiah on the heart and mind. Jeremiah knew about the TEN Commandments.

Even the majority of pro-sunday scholars admit to this.

3. In Genesis 2 theventh day is rest but not called the sabbath.

God Calls it Sabbath - placing the same emphasis on "sanctified" "Made it Holy" as in Ex 20:11 that specifically points at Genesis 2 -- this is irrefutable.

Your claim is in essence that Exodus 20:11 "does not exist" or that "God was wrong in Exodus 20:11 to claim the Sabbath of sinai is the Genesis 2 seventh day".

I prefer the actual Bible to just making stuff up on CF.

Creation Seventh day was not made for man.

thus saith a wildly speculative post on CF.
By contrast
Jesus said in Mark 2:27; the sabbath was made for man.

Hint: read the actual Sabbath commandment in Ex 20:8-11 and you will find not one reference to "manna as origin" but rather to Genesis 2 as origin. You have placed you extreme speculation in direct contrast to the most clear text in all of scripture.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

Choose the Bible "instead"

 

[BobRyan]

bobryan,

1. I am happy you understand that it was the hope of a physical resurrection and that is why he endured his sufferings.
Many believe it was about Paul dying to sin or crucifying the flesh which it really isn't.

1 Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" - is about Paul dying to self. If you are wanting to have that discussion - pick 1 Cor 9.

so ALSO -- 2 Corinthians 4:10: Always bearing about in our bodies the dying of the Lord Jesus that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. --

Same point as in 1 Cor 9.

Dying daily meant putting their life on the line for the cause of Christ

In 1 Cor 15 yes - but in 1 Cor 9 and 2Cor 4 -- no.

Sounds like another topic to me.

So then - 30 minutes ago #1

Paul said in Roman's 8 believers are like sheep led to the slaughtered every day. Glad we agree on that . Jerry kelso

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

3. If you think you understand context then tell me the context of 1 Corinthians 15:30 when Paul said I die daily? Jerry kelso

Without looking and reading, I'd assume it means dying to self. Renewing your mind daily. That would probably include putting off man made traditions and what WE THINK ,vs what God says.

 

[jerry kelso]

Without looking and reading, I'd assume it means dying to self. Renewing your mind daily. That would probably include putting off man made traditions and what WE THINK ,vs what God says.

sabbathkeeper&wife,
You are incorrect.
Why didn't you read it? Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

1 Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" - is about Paul dying to self. If you are wanting to have that discussion - pick 1 Cor 9.

so ALSO -- 2 Corinthians 4:10: Always bearing about in our bodies the dying of the Lord Jesus that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. --

Same point as in 1 Cor 9.




In 1 Cor 15 yes - but in 1 Cor 9 and 2Cor 4 -- no.

Sounds like another topic to me.

So then - 30 minutes ago #1

bobryan,

1. I didn't say anything about 1 Corinthians 9 and 2 Corinthians 4:10 is not about dying to self.
There you go spiritualizing again. Paul said in Roman's 6 die to sin once as Christ died.
Stick to the main point of the context. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

1. No text in all of scripture says the Commandments of God "were abolished at the cross" and we all know it.

Especially does 2 Corinthians 3:13 no say it. Thus it is still wrong to take God's name in vain -- and we all know it. Even the pro-sunday scholars know it.

It just does not get any easier than this.

2. You are "making up" your own Bible rule when slicing up the Ten Commandments to claim that one of them does not matter. Even Andy Stanley admits that doing such eisgesis - is "taking God's name in vain". If even he gets it - we can all get that easy Bible detail.

James 2 says that the moral law of God is based on "HE who SAID" and not based on "he who makes stuff up in a CF post" -- yet you find nothing at all to support your speculation - and merely post it.

3. the NEW Covenant writes the moral LAW of God known to Jeremiah on the heart and mind. Jeremiah knew about the TEN Commandments.

Even the majority of pro-sunday scholars admit to this.



God Calls it Sabbath - placing the same emphasis on "sanctified" "Made it Holy" as in Ex 20:11 that specifically points at Genesis 2 -- this is irrefutable.

Your claim is in essence that Exodus 20:11 "does not exist" or that "God was wrong in Exodus 20:11 to claim the Sabbath of sinai is the Genesis 2 seventh day".

I prefer the actual Bible to just making stuff up on CF.


thus saith a wildly speculative post on CF.
By contrast
Jesus said in Mark 2:27; the sabbath was made for man.

Hint: read the actual Sabbath commandment in Ex 20:8-11 and you will find not one reference to "manna as origin" but rather to Genesis 2 as origin. You have placed you extreme speculation in direct contrast to the most clear text in all of scripture.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

Choose the Bible "instead"

bobryan,

1. The Mosaic law was abolished plainly in 2 Corinthians 3:13. Read the whole chapter.

2. The Ten Commandments with specific judgements according to the Mosaic law were abolished. 2Corinthians 3.
The moral law excluding the sabbath day which was a ceremonial law, is now in the new covenant and written in our hearts not on tablets of stone that had specific judgements attached to it that was a part of the cursing of the law. If the Jews did the commandments they had specific blessings.

The moral law is in every age and is always right within themselves. Adultery was wrong before the law, during the law and after the law of Moses.
Before the law murder was wrong but had no mandatory law of death written. God's punishment was for Cain to be a vagabond, stranger and a fugitive.
Adultery is wrong but there is no mandatory written law on a tablet or the tablets of our heart to be physically stoned.

3. I have already shown that creation's Seventh day was not for man but God resting from his works.
I have already shown that the sabbath was given to the Jews before Mt. Sinai. This goes along with Jesus saying the sabbath was made for man.
It was made in commemoration of the Red Sea deliverance.
I have already shown that the connection of the seventh day in the covenant at Mt Sinai was rest. It does not say it was given to man at creation.
The seventh day and the Jewish Sabbath can be on the same day but it was not given to men at creation. You can say it's origin in the light of a day of rest was derived from creation but it was not given to man till the Jewish Seventh which was called Sabbath. The seventh day is never called Sabbath in these passages for that reason.
The Sabbath day can be on any day but the firstfruits was an Old Testament type of Christ resurrection and takes care of our physical and spiritual rest.
Jesus was in the grave on Saturday and probably could be considered a type of the sabbath of Moses passing away for the new covenant believer. Resurrection was the first day of the week so if one wants to hand on to one day sabbath day only it should be Sunday.
The truth is that any day the sabbath can be observed and can accomplish the same blessing. Jerry kelso

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The seventh day and the Jewish Sabbath can be on the same day but it was not given to men at creation. You can say it's origin in the light of a day of rest was derived from creation but it was not given to man till the Jewish Seventh which was called Sabbath. The seventh day is never called Sabbath in these passages for that reason.

Why is the word Sabbath used in many languages around the world, some ancient, for the 7th day? How would all these cultures know to name their 7th day a day of rest if it was not generally known throughout the world and not just the Jews? Do you suppose the Israelites were that highly regarded by all these cultures that they named the 7th day the Sabbath, meant only for the Jews as you contend?

Instead of debating exegesis let try some commonsensegesis...

 

[BobRyan]

bobryan,

1. The Mosaic law was abolished plainly in 2 Corinthians 3:13. Read the whole chapter.

2 Cor 3 is a good place NOT to find "The Mosaic Law was abolished" - thus -- taking God's name in vain is still a sin.

This is so incredibly obvious that even the majority of your own pro-sunday scholars will admit it.

Such as these -

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

you are not merely apposing Adventist acceptance of this bible fact - but all of Christianity's acceptance of the Bible on this point. Why do that?? Choose the Bible "instead"

Consider as a start accepting Romans 6

Romans 6 requires obedience to the word of God - under grace.

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the LAW by our faith? God forbid! IN fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

And 1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" even in the NT -- still

In Romans 3:19-20 Paul explains the term "UNDER the LAW" means condemned by the LAW as a sinner and going to hell.

So then in Romans 6 the point is made for those who are under the Gospel and no longer going to hell. Does Paul say in Romans 6 that continued rebellion against the LAW of God is going to work for Christians??

So then Romans 6 "Under the LAW" vs "Under Grace"

Rom 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
..

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.



1 Cor 6
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Cor 7:19 .. "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

 

[BobRyan]

1. The Mosaic law was abolished plainly in 2 Corinthians 3:13. Read the whole chapter.

2. The Ten Commandments with specific judgements according to the Mosaic law were abolished. 2Corinthians 3.

2 Corinthians 3 does not make your case

2 Corinthians chapter 3

The context from the start is the contrast between the 10 Commandments “law written on tablets of stone” externally – vs the New Covenant “law written on the tablets of the human heart”.

2 you are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

The subject is the contrast between the use of the law in the Old Covenant and the new - notice that both the old and New Covenant are the subjects of 2Cor3.

2Cor 3
vs 6 "who also made us adequate as servants of a New Covenant"

Where the New Covenant Jeremiah 31:31-33 writes that LAW "on the heart and mind". It is the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - the Law that defines what sin is - that is written on the heart and mind in Jeremiah 31.

That Law included things like "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 - and it still does include that commandment.

It also includes the 5th commandment as "the first commandment with a promise" Ephesians 6:2 - in that still-valie unit of TEN.

Such that Paul can ask this question "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31

Thus it is "still a sin" to take God's name in vain - Exodus 20:7

vs 14 "until this very day at the reading of the Old Covenant the same veil remains unlifted because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart. But whenever a man turns to the Lord the veil is taken away"

(notice it does not say whenever they stop reading Moses the veil is taken way - rather when they turn to the Lord (the one true God) they can read Moses with the veil taken away.)

This contrast of outward focus in the Old Covenant and inward in the New Covenant is amplified in these words regarding the law

"you are a letter of Christ cared for by us written not with ink, but wih the spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone (- 10 Commandments external on stone) but on tablets of the human heart" 2Cor 3:3 that which is written outwardly on "tablets of stone" in the Old Covenant (God's law) is written inwardly "on tablets of the human heart" under the New Covenant.

Romans 3:19-21 external on stone - they still condemn the entire world - "every mouth shut" they still define what sin is - according to Romans 3.

God further makes the same New Covenant point in Hebrews 8 "I will write my laws upon their hearts" Heb 8:10 --- which is a repeat of Jeremiah 31:33 where the term law in it's highest purest form is the law for Jeremiah written on tablets of stone (as Paul tells us).

So when God speaks these words to his prophet about writing inwardly that which the infinite unchanging creator God calls "law" (inwardly on the heart) - the context demands that we consider the 10 Commandments as the primary reference. James 2 is in full agreement with this giving us examples of the "law" of God - as "the law of liberty" - and the examples are simply excerpts from the law written on tablets of stone. (do not murder, and do not commit adultery).

Romans 2 makes it clear that real Christians "show that the work of the law is written on their hearts"


Romans 2:15. Regarding pagans who have no scripture but "do instinctively the things of the law" ..."for when gentiles who do not have the law - do instinctively the things of the law..."

- clearly it is the same law
of the infinite unchanging creator God which they do not have outwardly, but do have it written on their heart inwardly. That same law is expanded and shown to be the same outward law of the Jews in this same chapter "if therefore the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? And will not he who is physically uncircumcised if he keeps the law will he not judge you though having the letter of the law and physically circumcised - as a transgressor of the law"

"for he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that which is of the heart - by the spirit -- not by the letter". Rom 2:26-29

and of course the Romans view of what the law is - is the same as the “tablets of stone” we find in 2Cor 3—for Romans quotes from it.

Rom 7:

- 7 what shall we say then? Is the law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, i would not have come to know sin except through the law; for i would not have known about coveting if the law had not said, "" you shall not covet.''
8 but sin, taking opportunity through the Commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the law; but when the Commandment came, sin became alive and i died;
10 and this Commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;


-
(Note: Paul also calls the law "scripture" -


- Gal 3:21 is the law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22 but the scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
)


Ephesians 6:2 - is that 10 Commandment unit written on tablets of stone - whose "first Commandment with a promise" according to Paul - is the 5th Commandment to honor parents.

2Cor 3:
5 not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a New Covenant, not of the letter but of the spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Clearly the Gospel - New Covenant is the alternative to death - to that which kills. Only one gospel, only one way of salvation. The New Covenant.



- And the key to this is the fact that the spirit of God is working on the "tablets of the human heart" with the law that would otherwise simply be written on "tablets of stone".

-

2Cor 3
7 but if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8 how will the ministry of the spirit fail to be even more with glory?

as even Romans 3:19-21 states the moral law of God is indeed the minister of death for it condemns all mankind under sin. Still does - even after the cross. So that all will have the need of the Gospel.

Again the contrast - death vs life. While the law is not written on the heart - while it is simply external - engraved on stone, it only serves to
condemn us. Paul made this very clear in Romans. "the wages of sin is death". God's scripture has placed all men under sin. Romans 3, Gal 3.



- The law is not a "means of salvation" - but the New Covenant does something with the law of God - it writes it on the "tablets of the human heart" -
no longer merely "external" but part of the transformed "new creation" old things passed away - saints "obeying from the heart".

==================

False doctrine says that Moses is the author of the Old Covenant and that at the reading of Paul there is a veil over their eyes who are stuck under Moses and the Old Covenant.

In the Bible says it is Moses they are not seeing clearly when they read scriptures written by Moses - if they are under the Old Covenant.

In the Bible it is Moses and Elijah that stand WITH Christ in glory in Matt 17.

False doctrine says that "some other gospel - not the one preached by Christ before the cross - is to be proclaimed through all the world"

But in Matt 10 it is "THIS Gospel of the kingdom" that is to be preached long after the cross - into all the world. That pre-cross Gospel.

In Mark 7:6-13 it is the Gospel of Christ that is upholding Moses' teaching saying that "Moses said" = "Word of God" = "Commandment of God"

Notice how Jesus "gets down to the smallest details" when it comes to those trying to edit/downsize/side-step" even one sliver of His Ten Commandments.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye

Notice that "Moses said", "Word of God", "Commandment of God" ... are all in one category -- while "your tradition' and "your own tradition" and "tradition of men" are in another category --- according to Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

3. I have already shown that creation's Seventh day was not for man but God

utterly false - you did "claim it" but you never showed it to be true and Christ flatly condemned your doctrine in Mark 2:27 saying that "it was MADE for MANKIND and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" speaking of the "making of both" -- which is distinctly in Genesis 1-2.

Thus we have the Sinai command pointing at Genesis 2 - just when you claim it should not.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

You have mangled into "God made it for Himself to observe" and not man - by resting and sanctifying that day. But GOD says He made if for MAN to observe by resting and sanctifying it.

Then you post as if your own wild assertions and speculations should substitute-for-scripture with us??

Were we simply "not supposed to notice'??

Please be serious.

I have already shown that the sabbath was given to the Jews before Mt. Sinai.

So also is the NEW Covenant given to them - read Hebrews 8:6-10

So also the TEN commandments given to them - read Exodus 20:1

It was made in commemoration of the Creation week - see Exodus 20:11

This goes along with Jesus saying the sabbath was made for man.
It was made in commemoration of the Red Sea deliverance.

Hint - Exodus 20:11 comes before Deut 5 and Deut 5 says to recall and do all that was already commanded -

Better to read and accept the Bible - mangling it will not be compelling.

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

sabbathkeeper&wife,
You are incorrect.
Why didn't you read it? Jerry kelso

Mainly because I'm n the middle of another study and dropping what I'm doing to argue with you is not on the top of my list.......right now.
Peace be with you.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I think Bob, some people just like arguing for arguments sake and will never admit their error because that is not their purpose.

 

[jerry kelso]

utterly false - you did "claim it" but you never showed it to be true and Christ flatly condemned your doctrine in Mark 2:27 saying that "it was MADE for MANKIND and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" speaking of the "making of both" -- which is distinctly in Genesis 1-2.

Thus we have the Sinai command pointing at Genesis 2 - just when you claim it should not.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

You have mangled into "God made it for Himself to observe" and not man - by resting and sanctifying that day. But GOD says He made if for MAN to observe by resting and sanctifying it.

Then you post as if your own wild assertions and speculations should substitute-for-scripture with us??

Were we simply "not supposed to notice'??

Please be serious.



So also is the NEW Covenant given to them - read Hebrews 8:6-10

So also the TEN commandments given to them - read Exodus 20:1

It was made in commemoration of the Creation week - see Exodus 20:11



Hint - Exodus 20:11 comes before Deut 5 and Deut 5 says to recall and do all that was already commanded -

Better to read and accept the Bible - mangling it will not be compelling.

bobryan,

1. There you go again misunderstanding what I said and thus accusing me wrong.

2. Can you show me in Genesis 2 that says God made man for the sabbath at that time?
Can you show me where in Genesis 2 the seventh day is even called the Sabbath?
The seventh day was a day of rest by God from his works.
The seventh day became the sabbath for man given by God before the the law at Mt. Sinai Exodus 16:29-30.
Deuteronomy 5:15 said the Sabbath was given to commemorate coming out of Egypt and deliverance by the Red Sea.
Exodus 20:8 Remember to keep the sabbath day points back to God making the seventh day of rest the Sabbath which was in Exodus 16:29-30.
The resurrection was on Sunday and would be the day of rest . So if it was from the seventh day of creation it would have been on Saturday.

2. We remember the Sabbath today on any day because of the freedom of the finished work of Christ and free of legalistic bondage of the law mentality.
So it is for mankind on any day.

3. Hebrews 8:6 has been fulfilled. Verses 7-13 about Israel the nation has not been fulfilled.
The Ten Commandments was given to Israel which was only till the seed should come which was Jesus.

The word commemorate for creation is not in there in Exodus 20:11.
It is in Deuteronomy 5:15 in context of coming out of Egypt which was before Sinai.
Deuteronomy being after Exodus doesn't mean a thing. It is plain it was a commemoration of coming out of Egypt which was before Sinai and that is a fact. Quit being ridiculous.
You are wrong again. Jerry kelso

 

[BobRyan]

3. I have already shown that creation's Seventh day was not for man but God

utterly false - you did "claim it" but you never showed it to be true and Christ flatly condemned your doctrine in Mark 2:27 saying that "it was MADE for MANKIND and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" speaking of the "making of both" -- which is distinctly in Genesis 1-2.

Thus we have the Sinai command pointing at Genesis 2 - just when you claim it should not.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

You have mangled into "God made it for Himself to observe" and not man - by resting and sanctifying that day. But GOD says He made if for MAN to observe by resting and sanctifying it.

Then you post as if your own wild assertions and speculations should substitute-for-scripture with us??

Were we simply "not supposed to notice'??

Please be serious.

I have already shown that the sabbath was given to the Jews before Mt. Sinai.

So also is the NEW Covenant given to them - read Hebrews 8:6-10

So also the TEN commandments given to them - read Exodus 20:1

It was made in commemoration of the Creation week - see Exodus 20:11

This goes along with Jesus saying the sabbath was made for man.
It was made in commemoration of the Red Sea deliverance.

Hint - Exodus 20:11 comes before Deut 5 and Deut 5 says to recall and do all that was already commanded -

Better to read and accept the Bible - mangling it will not be compelling.

bobryan,

1. There you go again misunderstanding what I said and thus accusing me wrong.

I simply state that your accusations are false - and point to the actual truth here --

2 Corinthians chapter 3

The context from the start is the contrast between the 10 Commandments “law written on tablets of stone” externally – vs the New Covenant “law written on the tablets of the human heart”.

2 you are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

The subject is the contrast between the use of the law in the Old Covenant and the new - notice that both the old and New Covenant are the subjects of 2Cor3.

2Cor 3
vs 6 "who also made us adequate as servants of a New Covenant"

Where the New Covenant Jeremiah 31:31-33 writes that LAW "on the heart and mind". It is the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - the Law that defines what sin is - that is written on the heart and mind in Jeremiah 31.

That Law included things like "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 - and it still does include that commandment.

It also includes the 5th commandment as "the first commandment with a promise" Ephesians 6:2 - in that still-valie unit of TEN.

Such that Paul can ask this question "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31

Thus it is "still a sin" to take God's name in vain - Exodus 20:7

vs 14 "until this very day at the reading of the Old Covenant the same veil remains unlifted because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart. But whenever a man turns to the Lord the veil is taken away"

(notice it does not say whenever they stop reading Moses the veil is taken way - rather when they turn to the Lord (the one true God) they can read Moses with the veil taken away.)

This contrast of outward focus in the Old Covenant and inward in the New Covenant is amplified in these words regarding the law

"you are a letter of Christ cared for by us written not with ink, but wih the spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone (- 10 Commandments external on stone) but on tablets of the human heart" 2Cor 3:3 that which is written outwardly on "tablets of stone" in the Old Covenant (God's law) is written inwardly "on tablets of the human heart" under the New Covenant.

Romans 3:19-21 external on stone - they still condemn the entire world - "every mouth shut" they still define what sin is - according to Romans 3.

God further makes the same New Covenant point in Hebrews 8 "I will write my laws upon their hearts" Heb 8:10 --- which is a repeat of Jeremiah 31:33 where the term law in it's highest purest form is the law for Jeremiah written on tablets of stone (as Paul tells us).

So when God speaks these words to his prophet about writing inwardly that which the infinite unchanging creator God calls "law" (inwardly on the heart) - the context demands that we consider the 10 Commandments as the primary reference. James 2 is in full agreement with this giving us examples of the "law" of God - as "the law of liberty" - and the examples are simply excerpts from the law written on tablets of stone. (do not murder, and do not commit adultery).

Romans 2 makes it clear that real Christians "show that the work of the law is written on their hearts"


Romans 2:15. Regarding pagans who have no scripture but "do instinctively the things of the law" ..."for when gentiles who do not have the law - do instinctively the things of the law..."

- clearly it is the same law
of the infinite unchanging creator God which they do not have outwardly, but do have it written on their heart inwardly. That same law is expanded and shown to be the same outward law of the Jews in this same chapter "if therefore the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? And will not he who is physically uncircumcised if he keeps the law will he not judge you though having the letter of the law and physically circumcised - as a transgressor of the law"

"for he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that which is of the heart - by the spirit -- not by the letter". Rom 2:26-29

and of course the Romans view of what the law is - is the same as the “tablets of stone” we find in 2Cor 3—for Romans quotes from it.

Rom 7:

- 7 what shall we say then? Is the law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, i would not have come to know sin except through the law; for i would not have known about coveting if the law had not said, "" you shall not covet.''
8 but sin, taking opportunity through the Commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the law; but when the Commandment came, sin became alive and i died;
10 and this Commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;


-
(Note: Paul also calls the law "scripture" -


- Gal 3:21 is the law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22 but the scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
)


Ephesians 6:2 - is that 10 Commandment unit written on tablets of stone - whose "first Commandment with a promise" according to Paul - is the 5th Commandment to honor parents.

2Cor 3:
5 not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a New Covenant, not of the letter but of the spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Clearly the Gospel - New Covenant is the alternative to death - to that which kills. Only one gospel, only one way of salvation. The New Covenant.



- And the key to this is the fact that the spirit of God is working on the "tablets of the human heart" with the law that would otherwise simply be written on "tablets of stone".

-

2Cor 3
7 but if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8 how will the ministry of the spirit fail to be even more with glory?

as even Romans 3:19-21 states the moral law of God is indeed the minister of death for it condemns all mankind under sin. Still does - even after the cross. So that all will have the need of the Gospel.

Again the contrast - death vs life. While the law is not written on the heart - while it is simply external - engraved on stone, it only serves to
condemn us. Paul made this very clear in Romans. "the wages of sin is death". God's scripture has placed all men under sin. Romans 3, Gal 3.



- The law is not a "means of salvation" - but the New Covenant does something with the law of God - it writes it on the "tablets of the human heart" -
no longer merely "external" but part of the transformed "new creation" old things passed away - saints "obeying from the heart".

==================

False doctrine says that Moses is the author of the Old Covenant and that at the reading of Paul there is a veil over their eyes who are stuck under Moses and the Old Covenant.

In the Bible says it is Moses they are not seeing clearly when they read scriptures written by Moses - if they are under the Old Covenant.

In the Bible it is Moses and Elijah that stand WITH Christ in glory in Matt 17.

False doctrine says that "some other gospel - not the one preached by Christ before the cross - is to be proclaimed through all the world"

But in Matt 10 it is "THIS Gospel of the kingdom" that is to be preached long after the cross - into all the world. That pre-cross Gospel.

In Mark 7:6-13 it is the Gospel of Christ that is upholding Moses' teaching saying that "Moses said" = "Word of God" = "Commandment of God"

Notice how Jesus "gets down to the smallest details" when it comes to those trying to edit/downsize/side-step" even one sliver of His Ten Commandments.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye

Notice that "Moses said", "Word of God", "Commandment of God" ... are all in one category -- while "your tradition' and "your own tradition" and "tradition of men" are in another category --- according to Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

bobryan,

1. There you go again misunderstanding what I said and thus accusing me wrong.

2. Can you show me in Genesis 2 that says God made man for the sabbath at that time?

Hint - God already told you He did that very thing in Genesis 2 -- you can read his statement on Genesis 2 - in Exodus 20:11.

Let me show you ... "again".

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Hint: Genesis 2:1-3 describes a SEVEN day - week not a SIX day week as your mythology/doctrine seems to imagine for us. Even your own pro-sunday scholars admit to this Bible detail.

Genesis 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Your "oh no he did not - certainly not in Genesis 2" complaint against the text - is little more than you using "you" as your reference text.

Even your own pro-sunday scholars refute you on that non-biblical speculation. If you are going to come to an SDA board area with "correction" you need to at the very least have a suggestion that is not fully debunked by your own pro-sunday scholars. Can't we all agree on at least that much?

 

[BobRyan]

The game you are playing with Genesis 2:1-3 not knowing about Exodus 20:11 is fully refuted in Genesis 7 where clean and unclean animals are mentioned - but are not defined until Leviticus 11.

you argue that nothing can be known by Moses or his readers while reading Genesis if the detail that more fully explains it - is in Exodus 20:11 or is in Leviticus 11. But in fact his readers have Genesis, Exodus and Leviticus at the same time. No wonder even your own pro-Sunday scholars do not fall on their swords over that short-lived solution you are trying out.

Try something that agrees with the Bible and is not refuted by even your own pro-sunday scholars as a "first step"

 

[BobRyan]

The seventh day became the sabbath for man given by God before the the law at Mt. Sinai Exodus 16:29-30.

Not according to God - For it is "made holy in Genesis 2:1-3" and God reminds us of that fact in Exodus 20:11. You avoid Exodus 20:11 almost "religiously".

Deuteronomy 5:15 said the Sabbath was given to commemorate coming out of Egypt and deliverance by the Red Sea.

Deut 5 says to remember what God told them in Exodus 20 -- first.
It does not delete Exodus 20:11 as you seem to imagine.

Secondly the command to "not take God's name in vain" in Exodus 20 is based on Exodus 20:1 - God taking them out of Egypt.

The point remains.

 

[BobRyan]

3. Hebrews 8:6 has been fulfilled. Verses 7-13 about Israel the nation has not been fulfilled.

Hebrews 8:6-10 states that it is Christ that gives the TEN Commandments at Sinai.

What is more - you are free to declare you are not yet a NEW Covenant Christians but will choose to be one in the future.

We on the other hand claim to be NEW Covenant Christians today. And so also do your own pro-Sunday scholars BTW. Please select a form of speculation that at the very least is not refuted by your own pro-Sunday scholars.

In the mean time - you have free will. But if you do not choose a Bible-affirming position that is at the very least - accepted by your own pro-Sunday group - how do you expect to present objective Bible-based arguments to those who actually start off with a different POV than you?