Romans 6 Obedience to the Word of God - under Grace

[BobRyan]

Romans 6 requires obedience to the word of God - under grace.

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the LAW by our faith? God forbid! IN fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

And 1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" even in the NT -- still

In Romans 3:19-20 Paul explains the term "UNDER the LAW" means condemned by the LAW as a sinner and going to hell.

So then in Romans 6 the point is made for those who are under the Gospel and no longer going to hell. Does Paul say in Romans 6 that continued rebellion against the LAW of God is going to work for Christians??

So then Romans 6 "Under the LAW" vs "Under Grace"

Rom 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
..

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.



1 Cor 6
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Cor 7:19 .. "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

 

[BobRyan]

Can New Covenant saints afford to ignore this??

Rev 14:12 - "the saints KEEP The Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and His Commandments are not grievous.


1 Cor 7:19 .. "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

Rom 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;

and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Lev 19:18)
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, ou shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, [/FONT]
Do not commit adultery
also said,
Do not commit murder.
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty


Matt 5
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Jer 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”


Heb 8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete


"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

What law? The Law that condemns all mankind as sinners -

Rom 3
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

That same law - same chapter

"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31


1John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


John says -
Rev 22:
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.(KJV)

Christ said

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Exodus 20
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10



====================================== if so then consider this -

Eph 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

"First commandment" in WHAT unit of LAW ?? The unit that includes the Sabbath.

Ten Commandments spoken by Christ at Sinai - Ex 20. Heb 8:6-10

Rom 8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the Law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.


"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

 

[jason1]

Excellent posts BobyRyan. These lawless christians are in grave danger:


Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens.
Mat 7:22 "Many shall say to Me in that day, ‘Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and done many mighty works in Your Name?’
Mat 7:23 "And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!
Mat 7:24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock,
Mat 7:25 and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
Mat 7:26 "And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them,1 shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, Footnote: 1John 3:36.
Mat 7:27 and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall."

 

[Sophrosyne]

Us "lawless" Christians are under no danger whatsoever as long as we put our faith in Jesus the Law to us is akin to a grade school teacher for those who have received their GED certificate by God's Grace on the cross and have been accepted into College.

 

[BobRyan]

Us "lawless" Christians are under no danger whatsoever .

You have "quoted you" well. By contrast we have this from the Word of God - for the unbiased objective readers.

"not the HEARERS of the LAW are just before God - but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED" Rom 2:13.
"not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but rather he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God - AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[Sophrosyne]

You have "quoted you" well. By contrast we have this from the Word of God - for the unbiased objective readers.

"not the HEARERS of the LAW are just before God - but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED" Rom 2:13.
"not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but rather he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God - AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Doesn't negate Paul when he says when we are in the spirit we are NOT under the Law. You are welcome to IGNORE the spirit for the Law if you want..... I don't wish to.

 

[jason1]

Spirit of the law does not mean that written law disappears. Thats foolishness

 

[BobRyan]

Spirit of the law does not mean that written law disappears. Thats foolishness

Indeed - in Matt 5 God's law is magnified and has an even larger scope.

Thus there is no reason to 'negate Paul' -- when "reading Paul".

"not the HEARERS of the LAW are just before God - but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED" Rom 2:13.
"not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but rather he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God - AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Nor even when reading the teachings of Christ -

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye

 

[bbbbbbb]

Indeed - in Matt 5 God's law is magnified and has an even larger scope.

Thus there is no reason to 'negate Paul' -- when "reading Paul".

"not the HEARERS of the LAW are just before God - but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED" Rom 2:13.
"not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but rather he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God - AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Nor even when reading the teachings of Christ -

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye

My question stands unanswered by you. If you believe that Christians are obligated to obey the commandments of God as He gave them in the Old Testament, when do you intend to start obeying them?

 

[Soyeong]

Us "lawless" Christians are under no danger whatsoever as long as we put our faith in Jesus the Law to us is akin to a grade school teacher for those who have received their GED certificate by God's Grace on the cross and have been accepted into College.

Strong's defines "grace" as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life", and when God's will is reflected in our lives it takes the form of obedience to His commands. Grace is not an exemption from obeying God, but the means by which we can obey Him. God has given commands for the right way to live, so if you have faith in God that He knows how we should live, then you will obey His commands, not excuse disobedience. You can not move on to more advanced subjects like algebra by disregarding everything that you learned in grade school about addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division, so if you show that you have not learned to do what was taught in grade school, then you need to go back to grade school.

 

[Soyeong]

Doesn't negate Paul when he says when we are in the spirit we are NOT under the Law. You are welcome to IGNORE the spirit for the Law if you want..... I don't wish to.

Paul speaks about a number of different types of laws. The law that we are no longer is the law of sin and death, which is the opposite of God's law. The Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

 

[bbbbbbb]

Paul speaks about a number of different types of laws. The law that we are no longer is the law of sin and death, which is the opposite of God's law. The Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

So, in your opinion, did God decide to limit His law to only ten commandments?

 

[Soyeong]

So, in your opinion, did God decide to limit His law to only ten commandments?

At no point did God limit His holiness, righteousness, and goodness to only the Ten Commandments. You would have to ignore most of the 1,050 commands of Jesus and in the rest of the NT to arrive at only ten.

My question stands unanswered by you. If you believe that Christians are obligated to obey the commandments of God as He gave them in the Old Testament, when do you intend to start obeying them?

Someone who eats an unhealthy diet can give you all sorts of factual information about how to eat a healthy diet, so someone not living rightly does not necessarily mean that their knowledge about how to live rightly is not factual. It should be straightforward that those who follow God ought to follow His commands, and I try to obey them.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Strong's defines "grace" as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life", and when God's will is reflected in our lives it takes the form of obedience to His commands. Grace is not an exemption from obeying God, but the means by which we can obey Him. God has given commands for the right way to live, so if you have faith in God that He knows how we should live, then you will obey His commands, not excuse disobedience. You can not move on to more advanced subjects like algebra by disregarding everything that you learned in grade school about addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division, so if you show that you have not learned to do what was taught in grade school, then you need to go back to grade school.

Reread my post again, you don't get accepted into college if you NEED to go back to grade school.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Paul speaks about a number of different types of laws. The law that we are no longer is the law of sin and death, which is the opposite of God's law. The Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Yes Paul does, and often the law promoters don't take ANY time to look at context. The spirit doesn't lead us to obeying the Mosaic Law, it leads us to obeying Christs law of love, otherwise atheists who keep the Sabbath as tradition must have the Spirit which is utter nonsense.

 

[bbbbbbb]

At no point did God limit His holiness, righteousness, and goodness to only the Ten Commandments. You would have to ignore most of the 1,050 commands of Jesus and in the rest of the NT to arrive at only ten.



Someone who eats an unhealthy diet can give you all sorts of factual information about how to eat a healthy diet, so someone not living rightly does not necessarily mean that their knowledge about how to live rightly is not factual. It should be straightforward that those who follow God ought to follow His commands, and I try to obey them.

Thank you. Do you agree that God commanded a Sabbath rest to be observed every seventh day, every seventh year and every fiftieth year?

 

[Soyeong]

Reread my post again, you don't get accepted into college if you NEED to go back to grade school.

Then there is where your analogy falters because someone who needs to go back to grade school wouldn't be accepted into college in the first place. Whichever way you look at it, you should still be incorporating what was taught to you in grade school rather than disregarding. Those who do not rank among the lawless.

Yes Paul does, and often the law promoters don't take ANY time to look at context. The spirit doesn't lead us to obeying the Mosaic Law, it leads us to obeying Christs law of love, otherwise atheists who keep the Sabbath as tradition must have the Spirit which is utter nonsense.

Christ summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and how to love your neighbor, so the Mosaic Law precisely is the law of love and no other law is being talked about in Ezekiel. The Spirit certainly does not lead us in disobedience to what the Father has commanded, but rather the Spirit leads us in follow Christ's example of obedience to what the Father has commanded and guides is in loving God and loving our neighbor, but it is a logical fallacy to say that anyone who loves their neighbor is lead by the Spirit. From P therefore Q it does not follow that Q therefore P.

 

[Soyeong]

Thank you. Do you agree that God commanded a Sabbath rest to be observed every seventh day, every seventh year and every fiftieth year?

The Sabbath year is a rest for the land and people who grow crops or own slaves should obey these commands.

 

[BobRyan]

Thank you. Do you agree that God commanded a Sabbath rest to be observed every seventh day, every seventh year and every fiftieth year?

And do you see that in Gen 2:1-3?

And can that be done outside of a theocracy?

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Sabbath year is a rest for the land and people who grow crops or own slaves should obey these commands.

Excellent. Thus, we can be certain that the seventh-day Sabbath rest is also a rest for the land and people who grow crops or own slaves and does not apply to people like myself.