Coexist?

[ziggy29]

As an aside, why do I usually see "save the planet" stickers all over ancient VW vans which probably get about 8 MPG and pollute like crazy?

 

[tulc]

As an aside, why do I usually see "save the planet" stickers all over ancient VW vans which probably get about 8 MPG and pollute like crazy?

I blame drugs!
tulc(and not having working irony meters)

 

[airō]

You have a very high opinion of your opinion, I'll give you that much.

My opinion doesn't matter. God has the final word on the matter and this is clearly seen in Scripture.

 

[airō]

Interesting. Two things: 1) You do realize that doesn't even come close to answering the question I asked you right?
and 2) who gets to decide which of "these basic fundamentals." are the deal breakers?
tulc(just wondering)

Infallibility of Scripture
Virgin birth
Deity of Jesus Christ as the Son of God
Sola fide
Sola Gratia
Solus Christus
Bodily Resurrection of Christ
His Second Coming

God decides these are deal breakers.

 

[tulc]

Infallibility of Scripture
Virgin birth
Deity of Jesus Christ as the Son of God
Sola fide
Sola Gratia
Solus Christus
Bodily Resurrection of Christ
His Second Coming

God decides these are deal breakers.

Wait...are you saying all forms of Christianity agree 100% on those doctrines? And when they disagree, who decides which one is right?
tulc(just curious)

 

[PTruitt]

Theology (unlike Biology, for example) is not the study of God, but what one already believes and teaches about God. Theology, in this sense, represents not your pursuit of God, but what you think you've already grasped about him. Theology has been subtly replaced by dogma, and dogma is enforced by the validity of the institution, and vice versa, the institution is validated by its dogma.

Therefore, if others who are studying God (theology, in the biology-like sense) find something other than that which our institution already holds to be true (theology, in the dogma sense), then those findings threaten the validity of our institution by challenging our enforcement of some particular dogma.

Coexisting means we have to be humble enough to accept that there is a range of uncertainty about God, a range our dogma does not allow. So, we find that we must choose between coexistence and our institution. For us, the choice is obvious. We must side with the institution and defend its power, or the "truth" will be lost to the pagans!

Thus, peaceful co-existence is bad for our power struggle, and therefore bad for us.

It does not phase us that the central story of our faith revolves around an episode in which a man challenged the predominant religious institution of his day to set down their struggle for power in order to co-exist with those they saw as enemies, and to love freely. In our story, they killed him over this, and we praise him for that martyrdom, among other things. We make villains out of that institution and its struggle for power. We think we're better than they were. We think we understand God better than they did. We think we grasp that man's message as they clearly did not.

And then, we show we are just like them by spouting off rhetoric that is not fundamentally different than theirs. We choose power over love, judgment over co-existence, fundamentalism over humanitarianism. We choose sides by creating sides. We choose to preserve the church over preserving the truth.

At least, that's what it looks like from the perspective of most non-Christians I minister with, which is the number one reason they are content remaining agnostic. Maybe we can afford some unaffiliated peer review. Maybe.

Amen. Thank you.

 

[PTruitt]

...An essential doctrine of Christianity is that absolutely no one can enter heaven except they go through the blood...

There is a book that traces the history of this 'blood' theology. It is called "Saving Paradise: How Christianity Traded Love of This World for Crucifixion and Empire" by Rebecca Ann Parker and Rita Nakashima Brock.

 

[Kaonashi]

All religion seems to need to prove that it's the only truth. And that's where it turns demonic. Because that's when you get religious wars and persecutions and burning heretics at the stake.
John Shelby Spong

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

As an aside, why do I usually see "save the planet" stickers all over ancient VW vans which probably get about 8 MPG and pollute like crazy?

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatttttttttt????????

Old VW buses get between 16 and 25 mpg, and the last 5 or 6 of em that I've come across have actually been converted to run solely on corn oil. Pretty interesting actually, and those are still getting around 25 mpg.

Those old VW buses are nice vehicles, not the safest but still pretty sweet. I'd get one myself, but they go about 2K in rough shape around me, and cost an arm and a leg to fix up.

The last one I was privy to see, had more than 2 millions miles on it. And it was still getting around 22 mpg. The guy hadn't bought a gallon of fuel in 7 years.
I own a 99 Chrysler T&C, and it has less room than the VWs, and only gets 19mpg.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

All religion seems to need to prove that it's the only truth. And that's where it turns demonic. Because that's when you get religious wars and persecutions and burning heretics at the stake.
John Shelby Spong

Yes, and at the end of THIS DAY, the 6th, we, who know only our Lord, Jesus the ONLY Christ, will face that demonic persecution.

If we endure through it, maintaining chastity to our Beloved, we shall live through the Holy Seventh.

I pray the Lord is easy on the lukewarm who lay with the coming false christ behind this movement.

 

[airō]

Wait...are you saying all forms of Christianity agree 100% on those doctrines? And when they disagree, who decides which one is right?
tulc(just curious)

Denying the essentials deny the saving Gospel, therefore denies God, therefore denies salvation, therefore is condemned.

A cat can call itself a dog all day, but it's still a cat.

 

[tulc]

Denying the essentials deny the saving Gospel, therefore denies God, therefore denies salvation, therefore is condemned.

again, while that's interesting? It still doesn't answer any of the things I asked.

A cat can call itself a dog all day, but it's still a cat.

uhmmm...ok.
tulc(will wait a while in hopes you answer a question or two)

 

[cubinity]

Denying the essentials deny the saving Gospel, therefore denies God, therefore denies salvation, therefore is condemned.

A cat can call itself a dog all day, but it's still a cat.

It is certainly a rough paradigm you have created for yourself.

On the other hand, consider a world without the Bible or the Internet. You are an Apostle, writing to a church separated from the epicenter of the action. You wish to communicate the essentials to your audience right off the bat, so you can use the rest of your letter to shape your other argument. What do you choose to say?

If Paul agreed with you, he would have listed the points of the Gospel you did. But, he did not. What he did say of the Gospel to the Galatians was, "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forevermore. Amen." (G. 1:3-5).

In my reading of that letter, I'd say there are substantially fewer, and maybe even different, essentials, than you believe there are.

But, hey, you're free to make this as hard on yourself as you want. I am willing to coexist with you while you do that.

 

[Octorock]

Also, I don't think Paul was trying to say "everyone who thinks we should all get along is really trying to push some 'new age,' 'universalist' junk."

 

[Cabal]

Also, I don't think Paul was trying to say "everyone who thinks we should all get along is really trying to push some 'new age,' 'universalist' junk."

Right, exactly.

That and one can accept all of the essentials and still be pro-coexistence, seeing as this whole thread was based on a strawman to begin with.

 

[airō]

It is certainly a rough paradigm you have created for yourself.

Virgin birth - this is essential otherwise Jesus would have been born out of sin.

The deity of Jesus as the Son of God - if you deny Jesus as God, then you deny Him as Savior.

Sola fide, sola gratia, solus Christus - we are justified by the grace of God alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. Salvation comes through the blood atonement for the forgiveness of sins. That is the Gospel - add anything thing to that and you are accursed.

Infallibility of the Bible - if you do not accept the Bible as the absolute authority on morality and salvation, and you do not accept it as without error, you make God out to be imperfect and insufficient to do what He says He did, what He is doing, and what He will do. Most certainly, one who is new in the faith may not accept this to be true, but as they grow in the faith they will learn that indeed the Bible is without error.

Christ's resurrection - Paul said if there is no resurrection, then we believe in vain. If there is no resurrection and the only hope is the life we have now, then we are the most pitiful of all men.

2nd Coming - to deny Christ will come again is to call Him a liar.

 

[Octorock]

I am thankful that there are people in this world that feel that those who believe the things you listed, as well as those who don't, can and should live peacefully among each other.

 

[tulc]

Virgin birth - this is essential otherwise Jesus would have been born out of sin.

The deity of Jesus as the Son of God - if you deny Jesus as God, then you deny Him as Savior.

Sola fide, sola gratia, solus Christus - we are justified by the grace of God alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. Salvation comes through the blood atonement for the forgiveness of sins. That is the Gospel - add anything thing to that and you are accursed.

Infallibility of the Bible - if you do not accept the Bible as the absolute authority on morality and salvation, and you do not accept it as without error, you make God out to be imperfect and insufficient to do what He says He did, what He is doing, and what He will do. Most certainly, one who is new in the faith may not accept this to be true, but as they grow in the faith they will learn that indeed the Bible is without error.

Christ's resurrection - Paul said if there is no resurrection, then we believe in vain. If there is no resurrection and the only hope is the life we have now, then we are the most pitiful of all men.

2nd Coming - to deny Christ will come again is to call Him a liar.

And 100% of all Christians in the world agree 100% with your understanding of those doctrines?
tulc(is still trying to get some answers here)

 

[onemorequestion]

Denying the essentials deny the saving Gospel, therefore denies God, therefore denies salvation, therefore is condemned.

A cat can call itself a dog all day, but it's still a cat.

Not in California, Massachusetts and Illinois. And I think Iowa too right?

 

[onemorequestion]

And 100% of all Christians in the world agree 100% with your understanding of those doctrines?
tulc(is still trying to get some answers here)

Research evil and heresy.