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Coccyx - tale of a creationist disinformation post

tas8831

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How does one prove for or against something of which there is no evidence?

It is hard when one side simply engages in denialism and omits the evidence presented to them.

If you must believe in vestigial organs -- if your faith demands it -- go right ahead.
I have no faith, certainly not the sad faith of the righty Evangelical creationist. The evidence is there, you choose to deny it like Kurt Wise and Todd Wood.

What was the full context? Do you even know?
Yes - you see, unlike you, I actually read my sources - I don't just do keyword searches on YEC websites and run with it.
That is correct. Creation scientists, by definition, believe all humans are direct descendants of Adam and Eve, and are therefore, cousins.
They believe this not without evidence, but in spite of the evidence to the contrary. They do it via oath and hope - they state outright, the more intelligent(?) ones anyway, that they reject the evidence due to their commitment to ancient middle eastern tall tales.

Alas, you are not to that level of honesty yet.
Yea, I guess not. Did you know that Darwin also wrote this?
Wow, that totally negates the fact that you are incompetent to provide Scriptural support for Henry Morris' racism.
"With savages, the weak in body or mind are soon eliminated; and those that survive commonly exhibit a vigorous state of health. We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man." [Darwin, Charles, Civilised Nations, "The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex." 1981, Chap V, p.168]
And?
What was the context? Do you even know?
How do you suppose your Christian heroes thought of 'savages' in those days? Have you ever read what the Christian men of yore wrote about Native Americans?
He was making observations re: natural selection.

Morris the Christian creationist was simply using Scripture to justify the innate racism of the WASP.
She tried to put it in simple layman's terms, but I guess it is still over your head. Maybe you can better understand this video:


That was pretty silly.

But the fact that you rely entirely on creationist essays and videos tells me that you are hiding your ignorance behind this sad reliance upon others.

How about you explain that to us?
God does not wish that any should perish.
So that whole flood thing.. and the whole 'curse' thing... You people need ot get your tall tales straight.
Let me guess. Does that mean you think humans are chumps?
I think those that attend megachurches and voted for Trump are chumps, yes.

I know that humans and apes and monkeys and mammals and etc. are related. I presented some of the evidence for this, yet you dismissed it out of hand in the same fashion that every other Dunning-Kruger effect creationist non-scientist has. Oh, right - there were no creationist videos aimed at the scientifically illiterate that discussed it, so...
It obviously went right over your head.
Not even close. Purdom is just another Menton - under-prepared and over-confident.
Insults are all evolutionist's seem to understand.
I understand the science that you dismiss and ignore.
Have you never visited evolutionism web sites?
What is evolutionism?
Just another silly evolutionism icon ready to bite the dust.
So you've got nothing, like every other Dunning-Krugerite creationist on here.
Let me know when you can prove macroevolution.

Dan
Let me know when you have progressed past 8th grade science.

Also let me know when you can prove creationism by God magic.

In the meantime - I note that you could not actually counter any of these - you don;t have what it takes:

The FACTS are:



1. The coccyx contains reduced vertebrae. Their articulation resembles that seen in tailed mammals.

2. The coccyx has a muscular attachment, the extensor coccygis (NOT the coccygeus as many creationists dishonestly try to counter with – that is a different muscle), whose origin is on the distal, dorsal sacrum and which inserts on the coccyx, crossing the sacrococcygeal joint. As such, this muscle’s ONLY possible function is to extend the coccyx. That is, to make it stick out posteriorly. And yet we cannot do this. The same muscle exists in tailed primates. And they Can extend their tails (their EC is more extensive than ours – say, that is totally like a rudiment! Just like in the definition of vestigial!). Why Design a muscle for humans that they cannot use?

3. People born without a coccyx generally do not exhibit detrimental symptoms – their ‘autonomic reproductive functions’ and bladder control etc. work fine. So much for this ‘supported by the coccyx’ gibberish.

4. I have seen no documentation indicating that humans born with tails are used as evidence that THE COCCYX is vestigial.

5. There is no creationist explanation for the extensor coccygis, for why we would have been ‘designed’ with a muscle that we cannot actually use, whose only possible function is to extend the coccyx.

6. Creationists never offer evidence FOR creation, just these sad, pathetic, desperate attacks on evolution and evolutionists to try to generate a fallacious false dichotomy argument.


nor any of this:

I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it:

The tested methodology:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



We can ASSUME that the results of an application of those methods have merit.


Application of the tested methodology:

Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "




Catarrhine phylogeny: noncoding DNA evidence for a diphyletic origin of the mangabeys and for a human-chimpanzee clade.

"The Superfamily Hominoidea for apes and humans is reduced to family Hominidae within Superfamily Cercopithecoidea, with all living hominids placed in subfamily Homininae; and (4) chimpanzees and humans are members of a single genus, Homo, with common and bonobo chimpanzees placed in subgenus H. (Pan) and humans placed in subgenus H. (Homo). It may be noted that humans and chimpanzees are more than 98.3% identical in their typical nuclear noncoding DNA and probably more than 99.5% identical in the active coding nucleotide sequences of their functional nuclear genes (Goodman et al., 1989, 1990). In mammals such high genetic correspondence is commonly found between sibling species below the generic level but not between species in different genera."

--------------------------------

Your turn.
 
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How about you first admit that you were wrong about there being little to no bioturbation in the geologic column and admit that there are complex burrow systems identified within Paleozoic and mesozoic and cenozoic strata.

No deal. When there is a dispute, I trust the interpretations of the flood geologists over the evolutionism geologist, every time.

And you can admit that the tracks of the Bolivian late mesozoic were going in various directions and likely we're not fleeing given that pteradactyls wouldn't flee on foot as they're flying animals (this being aside from observed spacing between tracks which allow for determination of if dinosaurs we're walking or running).

I'll give you that one since there is little about it in the creation science literature, and it is irrelevant to the big picture. I made my assumptions primarily from this article:

"even more interesting is that the footprints are not on flat ground but rather on an almost vertical wall; and the vast majority seem to be moving in one direction (downhill as the geography now stands). Now this is a region that has had lots of tectonic activity in the recent past, so this was probably flat ground at the time the dinosaurs were making the tracks." [Ken Ham, "Dinosaur Footprint Wall in Bolivia." Answers in Genesis, 2016]

Dinosaur Footprint Wall in Bolivia

From the same article:

"A couple of quotes about the Cal Orcko archaeological site from the Guardian website really stood out:

"That ankylosaur was running. It sank its four toes into the ground, rather than its heel...."

"The creatures' feet sank into the soft shoreline in warm damp weather, leaving marks that were solidified by later periods of drought. Wet weather then returned, sealing the prints below mud and sediment. The wet-dry pattern was repeated seven times, preserving multiple layers of prints. The cherry on the cake was added when tectonic activity pushed the flat ground up to a brilliant viewing angle—as if nature was aware of its tourism potential."
Dinosaur tracking in Bolivia

There are other creation articles that mention dino tracks pointing in a southwest direction, as would be expected during a global flood.

And while you're at it, you can acknowledge the existence of ductile deformation of rocks and kindly never ask a geologist again how rocks bend, as if we don't already know and now that you know.

I believe the folded layers in the flood sediments occurred primarily during deposition or during uplift before the sediments hardened. Check this out:


Oh and if you could kindly admit that you are unaware of how a global flood could produce the angular unconformity of the shawangunk Martinsburg contact, that would be great too.

I am uncertain what an angular unconformity has to do with whether there is a flood, or not. However, flood geologists believe the Great Unconformity was formed by the initial flood surge:


Let's look at it a different way. Are there marine fossils in the area? If so, there is a strong possibility of a marine flood. But that is true world-wide since marine fossils are found high-and-dry world-wide.

How do you explain the existence of world-wide marine fossils in continental sediments in both low and high elevations (and in virtually all strata from the Cambrian upward)?

Once you actually acknowledge our prior discussions and how they've been concluded, then I would be happy to change the subject yet again and to make an example of the new subject just like all the others that you have raised.

Dan
 
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Same as regular scientists then, though regular scientists have evidence, so less God & Genesis and more genetics and evolution, of course...

? Please rephrase.

....now you're arguing FOR evolution?

I was responding to your statement.

He's speaking of the stronger, fitter, more capable lineage that natives tend to have because of the coddling that the civilised west was able to give to our weaker individuals through informed care because of science and social unity... he does have a point, btw.

A lot of very cruel people also believed Darwin "had a point".

No, no, it isn't that we don't understand, it's that she's wrong.

Dr. Purdom is right on the money about our genetic heritage, and it is not based on that silly notion of "common descent".

Do the Amalakites know this? How about the Canaanites? Midianites? All the first born of Egypt?

Probably not, or they would not have acted so treacherously. Or, perhaps they did and were too proud or too covetous to change their evil ways.

It is good to see you take the Bible literally, or at least the parts that support your cause.

Dan
 
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tas8831

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It is so cool how you just kept re-quoting the same thing as if that makes it unimpeachable.

Since you pretend to have the actual original Tik papers - how about you save us all some time and provide the quotes from THEM in which the pelvic fins are described? Especially the one with "pectoral fins" in the title...
Or, some maneuvering.
Projection - always projection with the creationist.
This is from Ahlberg & Clack that Dr. Menton referenced and footnoted:

"In some respects, Tiktaalik and Panderichthys are straightforward fishes: they have small pelvic fins, retain fin rays in their paired appendages and have well-developed gill arches, suggesting that both animals remained mostly aquatic. In other regards, Tiktaalik is more tetrapod-like than Panderichthys. The bony gill cover has disappeared, and the skull has a longer snout . . . The fossils [of the Tiktaalik] are earliest Late Devonian in age, making them at most 2 million or 3 million years younger than Panderichthys. With its crocodile-shaped skull, and paired fins with fin rays but strong internal limb skeletons, Tiktaalik also resembles Panderichthys quite closely." [Ahlberg & Clack, "A Firm Step From Water to Land." Nature, 2006, p.748]

Where do you think Ahlberg & Clack got the notion that "Tiktaalik also resembles Panderichthys quite closely"? Never mind . . .
Not from the Pelvic fins. Duh.

'Resembles quite closely' is not the same as identical, is it? After all, from the paper you pretend to have read:


Panderichthys possesses relatively few tetrapod synapomorphies, and provides only partial insight into the origin of major features of the skull, limbs and axial skeleton of early tetrapods. In view of the morphological gap between elpistostegalian fish and tetrapods, the phylogenetic framework for the immediate sister group of tetrapods has been incomplete and our understanding of major anatomical transformations at the fish–tetrapod transition has remained limited.

The discovery of a new elpistostegalian sarcopterygian from the Fram Formation in Nunavut Territory, Canada (Fig. 1) significantly enhances our knowledge of the fish–tetrapod transition. Many articulated specimens from a single site are used to describe a taxon that is a remarkable intermediate between Panderichthys and early tetrapods. The material provides opportunities to assess the morphological and functional changes associated with the origin of tetrapods."​

But that doesn't fit the hero-protection narrative, I suppose... Keyword searches are for children.

And:

"Among the features that differentiate Tiktaalik from Acanthostega and other tetrapods are the presence of lepidotrichia in the pectoral and pelvic fins, a relatively elongate hyomandibula, pectoral fin radials that branch, dermal supracleithral elements, a precoronoid fossa in the lower jaw, and a palate with entopterygoids that do not meet at the midline."​

The sole mention of the pelvic fins in EITHER of the 2 original Tiktaalik publications.

No mention of the connections, etc. Menton lied.

You sound like a Dunning-Kruger effect poster boy.

Still no attempt to rescue Menton's lie/incompetence regarding the necessity of a bone-to-bone articulation between limbs and axial skeleton, I see.

Too many big words for the chap that relies on YEC hero essays to tell him what to think.[/QUOTE]
 
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tas8831

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Dr. Purdom is right on the money about our genetic heritage, and it is not based on that silly notion of "common descent".

How do you know that? I've seen no evidence you understand anything related to genetics.
 
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tas8831

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You are boring. If you cannot discuss data or evidence or the coccyx, head out, pops.
The pathetic claims all come from evolutionists.



I said he is an evolutionist. Do you have a reading comprehension problem?



I guess you do have a reading comprehension problem. My point was and is, life is a lawn, not a tree, as Darwin (mostly) claimed, or even a bush, as Venter claimed. Evolution is false no matter how the debate goes.



There is no debate in government schools in which the state-respected and supported religion of evolutionism is the only game in town. All opposing views have been suppressed, much like the religious suppression our forefathers fled from centuries ago.

For the record, evolution IS old-earth creationism; either that, or it is old-earth magic. Take your pick.



I was curious how you would handle my last paragraph. Nice dodge -- on that paragraph and the previous one!

Dan
 
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You answered your own question... And ignored that unlike the 3500 year old tall tales borrowed and modified from neighboring tribes and traditions, science keeps adding to its knowledge base, whereas religionism simply remains locked in ancient times.

I know you want to believe that evolution is based on science; but it is in reality just a modern, anti-God, faith-based religion. Nothing else.

Only low-information types believe the Aron Ra Cult talking point that the Bible is a bunch of "tall tales" (I believe the Ra Ra crowd adds, "written by goat herders").

Dan
 
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Let's look at it a different way. Are there marine fossils in the area? If so, there is a strong possibility of a marine flood

But that is true world-wide since marine fossils are found high-and-dry world-wide.


How do you explain the existence of world-wide marine fossils in continental sediments in both low and high elevations (and in virtually all strata from the Cambrian upward)?


Dan
Changes over time in areas of land that were covered and not covered by water. Plus, you don't just find the marine fossils everywhere, they vary depending on the rock layer and location. That is, the same rock layer that is filled to the brim with marine fossils in Brazil could lack them entirely in China. That type of finding would make absolutely no sense in the context of these fossils being a product of a global flood; anywhere there are fossils there should be fossils of marine life in those layers.

If you want to contend that multiple, distinct rock layers resulted from a global flood, here area few of the problems I could think of with that:

1. these rock layers aren't in any way ordered by density, yet if they had all been deposited during the same event, wouldn't the denser sediments have settled before the less dense ones?
2. How fast do you think these flood waters were? Do you not know the shear amount of force it would take for water to carry that much sediment on a global scale? The speed the water would have to move? Forget dying from changes in salinity or drowning, most of the life in the oceans and on land would have been obliterated by blunt force trauma, every bone shattered and cells bursting.


And here are a couple that come with a global flood in general:

1. Why can't the vast majority of modern marine and freshwater organisms survive in brackish water, which is what raining down freshwater sufficient to cover the Earth would create upon mixing with the oceans?
2. There isn't enough water on Earth to cover all land masses, even if it was raised up such as to make the ocean bottoms uncovered and to bring all underground water sources to the surface. Where'd the extra necessary water go?
3. Why aren't well preserved, complete fossil skeletons more common within these "global flood" rock layers? All these organisms people claimed must have been buried quickly, and yet so many are strewn about as if scavengers got to them first. Were the animals dragging bits of each other multiple meters apart in a panic? How'd they even have the time to do that when they were buried so quickly?

These are in no way comprehensive lists of the problems with a global flood.
 
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AV1611VET

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(I believe the Ra Ra crowd adds, "written by goat herders").
"Goat herders" is just part of it.

The full expression is:

"Ignorant, bronze age, desert dwelling, goat herding, nomads."

Ask collegians today if:
  1. the Jews are God's choosen people
  2. the land of Israel is the Promised Land
  3. if their second diaspora ended in 1948 in fulfillment of a major prophecy
  4. if Jesus was a mutant, copy error
  5. where Jesus got His y-chromosome
See if you get straight answers that respect both science and the Bible at the same time.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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There are other creation articles that mention dino tracks pointing in a southwest direction, as would be expected during a global flood.

Why specifically the South-West?
 
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But I am sure that your TV is locked into Fox.

I told you I don't watch any network or cable news.

Right, so narcissistic. Like 'ad hominem', it seems that you don't understand what 'narcissist' is.

Of course I do, and Obama is a world-class narcissist. Did you ever listen to one of his speeches? Take out the words "I" and "me" and there is little left. LOL!

He also likes to stiff contractors and threaten them with lawsuits.

Baloney. You are parroting far-left talking points. Trump's employees almost universally loved and respected him. Did you ever see this?


He also attacked and insulted veterans and a Gold Star Family.

Baloney. Trump loves the military and Gold Star families, and the military and Gold Star families almost universally love him. You must be referring to the crazy John's (McCain and Kerry), whose political charlantry Trump despises (me, too!); and to the far-left muslim political hack at the DNC convention who would happily sacrifice the safety and security of our nation to promote far-left, anti-constitution, political ideology? Is that right?

He made his "standard retard" impression (according to Ann Coulter) to mock a disabled reporter.

More baloney. I am not saying that Trump does not universally abhor the hatred of far-left propagandists disguised as reporters, such as the hack in question. Who in their right mind wouldn't? But Donald Trump would never knowingly mock a disable person. He is also on record making that same gesture when referring to other hysterical liars -- those who were NOT disable -- prior to the big propaganda event. You won't see that on CNN.

He also said that avoiding STDs was 'his Viet Nam'.

So? Bernie Sanders and many other far left "leaders", including Barry Obama's buddy, the terrorist Bill Ayers, were trashing our military during the Vietnam War. Donald Trump did not do that. He loves this country.

He is also a serial philanderer with several divorces and has probably had sex with his daughter.
These photos of Trump and Ivanka will make you deeply uncomfortable

His daughter? There are probably a gazillion photos of Trump and his children? Why on earth would you help a bunch of perverts spread such trashy innuendo. What's the matter with you?

But hey - he hates the brown skins, loves money, hates the poor - just like Jesus!

Donald Trump loves people of all races, loves to give financial help to people incognito, without taking tax deductions, and has already helped the lives of more of the poor than all the democrat presidents in the modern era (they actually made life worse for the poor). The unemployment rates for both Blacks and Hispanics are currently at the lowest rates in our history.

I'm betting you still think trickle down works, right?

I see a pattern with this one...

I know that socialists treat the economy as a pie, and capitalists treat the economy as a bakery. I also know jobs come from people who can afford to hire others. Does that answer your question? You seem to be so ignorant of economics, I had to ask.

The FACTS are:

1. The coccyx contains reduced vertebrae. Their articulation resembles that seen in tailed mammals.

2. The coccyx has a muscular attachment, the extensor coccygis (NOT the coccygeus as many creationists dishonestly try to counter with – that is a different muscle), whose origin is on the distal, dorsal sacrum and which inserts on the coccyx, crossing the sacrococcygeal joint. As such, this muscle’s ONLY possible function is to extend the coccyx. That is, to make it stick out posteriorly. And yet we cannot do this. The same muscle exists in tailed primates. And they Can extend their tails (their EC is more extensive than ours – say, that is totally like a rudiment! Just like in the definition of vestigial!). Why Design a muscle for humans that they cannot use?

3. People born without a coccyx generally do not exhibit detrimental symptoms – their ‘autonomic reproductive functions’ and bladder control etc. work fine. So much for this ‘supported by the coccyx’ gibberish.

4. I have seen no documentation indicating that humans born with tails are used as evidence that THE COCCYX is vestigial.

5. There is no creationist explanation for the extensor coccygis, for why we would have been ‘designed’ with a muscle that we cannot actually use, whose only possible function is to extend the coccyx.

If there was nothing attached to the coccyx you might have a point. But for now you and other evolutionists promoting such nonsense are simply throwing mud at the wall. After all, the list of Evolutionism Icons is getting smaller ever day; and bitter clingers must have something to cling to . . .

6. Creationists never offer evidence FOR creation, just these sad, pathetic, desperate attacks on evolution and evolutionists to try to generate a fallacious false dichotomy argument.

There are only two choices: either 1) believe in a divine creator, or 2) believe in magic. I assume you have chosen #2.

Dan
 
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LOL!
The great 'researcher' cannot handle science?!?
Lots of unnecessarily confident and condescending bombast and bluster, but ending up as an empty suit. Typical...

I was right. You are obsessed with the pseudoscience of vestigial organs.

Just a reminder of the what our "researcher" omitted and ran away from:

The following is a nice progression from testing of a methodology, to application of the tested methodology to evolutionary questions. Creationist replies to this have been lacking, to say the least.

---------------------------------------------------
I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it:

The tested methodology:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.

We can ASSUME that the results of an application of those methods have merit.

Application of the tested methodology:

Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "

Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."

A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "

Catarrhine phylogeny: noncoding DNA evidence for a diphyletic origin of the mangabeys and for a human-chimpanzee clade.

"The Superfamily Hominoidea for apes and humans is reduced to family Hominidae within Superfamily Cercopithecoidea, with all living hominids placed in subfamily Homininae; and (4) chimpanzees and humans are members of a single genus, Homo, with common and bonobo chimpanzees placed in subgenus H. (Pan) and humans placed in subgenus H. (Homo). It may be noted that humans and chimpanzees are more than 98.3% identical in their typical nuclear noncoding DNA and probably more than 99.5% identical in the active coding nucleotide sequences of their functional nuclear genes (Goodman et al., 1989, 1990). In mammals such high genetic correspondence is commonly found between sibling species below the generic level but not between species in different genera."

--------------------------------​

Are you still promoting that pseudoscience that claims Human and Chimpanzee are cousins? I though you would have heard by now that the percentage similarity is steadily going down. Have you read this from a 2018 article?

"So, there is plenty of our genome — huge portions in fact — that don't fit the standard phylogeny. It's not always the case that 'identical mutations … are present before these two lineages separate' (p. 36), as Venema puts it. Sometimes the genetic data contradict the expected pattern of a 'nested hierarchy.' So big is this problem that a whopping 23 percent of our genome does not place humans as most closely related to chimpanzees, contradicting the standard evolutionary tree.

"In sum, it seems that genetic data fit the standard human-ape phylogeny, except when it doesn't. As always, evolutionary biologists have their after-the-fact explanations (here, incomplete lineage sorting). The point is that huge amounts of genome data differ strikingly from Venema's example of some pseudogenes that do fit the standard phylogeny. If the fact that a few pseudogenes fit the standard phylogeny somehow provides evidence for common ancestry, doesn't the fact that over 20 percent of our genome does not fit the standard phylogeny provide evidence against common ancestry?"

["Adam and the Genome and “Nonfunctional” Pseudogenes." Evolution News & Science Today, 2018]


https://evolutionnews.org/2018/01/adam-and-the-genome-and-nonfunctional-pseudogenes/

And most importantly, he totally bailed from:

So sad.

It appears I bailed from "so sad". I'll try harder. LOL!

Dan
 
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tas8831

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Boooooring....
There are only two choices: either 1) believe in a divine creator, or 2) believe in magic. I assume you have chosen #2.

Dan

LOL!

Says the fellow who accepts, without question, the dopey ancient middle eastern creation myth wherein the first human male is made from "dust of the ground" and poofed into life by a tribal deity breathing life into it!

So precious how you duck and dodge and change topics so as to avoid having to admit that Menton is a liar, the coccyx is vestigial, and creationism is a myth.

Still waiting for you to explain why anyo0ne should care what some old engineer thinks about evolution when a degreed professional biologist creationist admits evolution has lots of evidence in its support - as does your hero Kurt Wise.
 
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Standard YEC/IDist tactics. I think there comes a time when they realize that all of the garbage that they have faithfully accepted from YEC/ID propagandists is failing, when they see that despite their unwarranted high opinions of themselves (Dunning-Kruger effect) they cannot 'win', they just fade away. Like pshun2404 and OldWiseGuy, they just abandon their own threads...

If you will point to any scientific proof of macroevolution, or to any scientific proof an old earth, I will reconsider my interpretation of the words of Genesis. Either proof will do.

Dan
 
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tas8831

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I was right. You are obsessed with the pseudoscience of vestigial organs.
Obsessed with wondering why so many creationists are so obviously suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Are you still promoting that pseudoscience that claims Human and Chimpanzee are cousins? I though you would have heard by now that the percentage similarity is steadily going down.

So cute how the latest "I'm so smart" creationismist can't think their dopey claims through - if the % similarity (so precious how you think that similarity is the most relevant indicator) between chimps and humans is going down (according to creationismist propagandists), and this is a function of particular accounting methods, that creatures that creationists claim ARE related via descent from a created Kind (for which there is no evidence at all) will ALSO exhibit lower and lower % similarities?

I have emailed CMI asking why Tomkins never looks at DNA comparisons betweens creatures of the same Baramin, and I never get replies from Tomkins, just assertions that he 'stands by his claims."

Creation 'scientists' are a joke.
 
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tas8831

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If you will point to any scientific proof of macroevolution, or to any scientific proof an old earth, I will reconsider my interpretation of the words of Genesis. Either proof will do.

Dan
You keep ignoring it every time I present it because you are a dishonest person, desperate to protect your mythology.

Why never any evidence for your ancient tribal deity's existence?
 
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AV1611VET

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Possibly the same creation 'scientists' that explain that fish fossils eyes are wide open as if in fear of the flood waters... Not understanding that the size of the orbit is not an indication that the eyes were wide open...

LOL! I have never read that one! Do you have a link?

Dan
 
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No deal. When there is a dispute, I trust the interpretations of the flood geologists over the evolutionism geologist, every time.



I'll give you that one since there is little about it in the creation science literature, and it is irrelevant to the big picture. I made my assumptions primarily from this article:

"even more interesting is that the footprints are not on flat ground but rather on an almost vertical wall; and the vast majority seem to be moving in one direction (downhill as the geography now stands). Now this is a region that has had lots of tectonic activity in the recent past, so this was probably flat ground at the time the dinosaurs were making the tracks." [Ken Ham, "Dinosaur Footprint Wall in Bolivia." Answers in Genesis, 2016]

Dinosaur Footprint Wall in Bolivia

From the same article:

"A couple of quotes about the Cal Orcko archaeological site from the Guardian website really stood out:

"That ankylosaur was running. It sank its four toes into the ground, rather than its heel...."

"The creatures' feet sank into the soft shoreline in warm damp weather, leaving marks that were solidified by later periods of drought. Wet weather then returned, sealing the prints below mud and sediment. The wet-dry pattern was repeated seven times, preserving multiple layers of prints. The cherry on the cake was added when tectonic activity pushed the flat ground up to a brilliant viewing angle—as if nature was aware of its tourism potential."
Dinosaur tracking in Bolivia

There are other creation articles that mention dino tracks pointing in a southwest direction, as would be expected during a global flood.



I believe the folded layers in the flood sediments occurred primarily during deposition or during uplift before the sediments hardened. Check this out:




I am uncertain what an angular unconformity has to do with whether there is a flood, or not. However, flood geologists believe the Great Unconformity was formed by the initial flood surge:


Let's look at it a different way. Are there marine fossils in the area? If so, there is a strong possibility of a marine flood. But that is true world-wide since marine fossils are found high-and-dry world-wide.

How do you explain the existence of world-wide marine fossils in continental sediments in both low and high elevations (and in virtually all strata from the Cambrian upward)?



Dan


"I believe the folded layers in the flood sediments occurred primarily during deposition or during uplift before the sediments hardened."

Alright, you just continue to repeat the same old same old. This idea of strata faulting while still soft doesnt make any sense. Dont you understand that uplift and faulting and things such as cataclastic metamorphism and shear straining all go hand in hand? You just cant do this stuff in soft sediment. So you cant have uplift before sediments hardened.

You continue to make the same unsupported claims over and over, without recognizing the flaws in them.

"I am uncertain what an angular unconformity has to do with whether there is a flood, or not. "

You just dont understand. Thats all there is to it. You're incapable of having a serious discussion about this topic because you are unfamiliar with science.
 
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Job 33:6

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You keep ignoring it every time I present it because you are a dishonest person, desperate to protect your mythology.

Thank you, this is exactly what is going on.

It is intellectual dishonesty and the inability to accept that his ideas do not make logical or scientific sense.
 
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