Co-Redeemer?

[Uphill Battle]

Yeah but Paul didn't bring fourth the Word made flesh.

No incarnation UPhill, no redemption. It is just that simple.

Man will live forever more becuase of Christmas day.
.

I'm aware of that. Nor do I downplay the crucial role that Mary played! However, I would have to disagree that she did "more" for Christendom than a great many people. She played her part as God intended. To say she did more than some of the men who spread the gospel across the world seems afwully silly to me.

 

[PassthePeace1]

oh, I wasn't thinking about Jesus in the equation... he obviously did it all.


I just look at the math on the matter. Mary bore Christ...


Paul was flogged, stoned, beaten, starved, run out of town, hated, on the defensive from the WORSHIP of deluded pagans, lived with an unspecified ailment for his entire life, and finally, beheaded.

I do not deny what Mary did was something extremely unique. However, can you really argue she did MORE than Paul?

I notice you have a child, which would be worst for you...to be flogged, stone, beaten, starved ...etc...or to watch your child, be flogged, beaten, spit on, mocked..etc, and drag thru the street as a common criminal, and died a horrible slow death, while others mocked....all the while you knew your child was innocent.

Just a thought.

Peace be with you...Pam

 

[Mobiosity]

We know...

You are a co redeemer and I am a co redeemer, anytime we lead someone to Christ, we co redeem, no? yes.

No, the Holy Spirit convicts them, makes it possible for us to lead them to the truth. We aren't co-nothing.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I notice you have a child, which would be worst for you...to be flogged, stone, beaten, starved ...etc...or to watch your child, be flogged, beaten, spit on, mocked..etc, and drag thru the street as a common criminal, and died a horrible slow death, while others mocked....all the while you knew your child was innocent.

Just a thought.

Peace be with you...Pam

so, would you say then what Mary endured was more than what Jesus did?

That's the natural progression of logic to that statement.

 

[Mobiosity]

You are really in error and being ascriptual about this. God requires good works from us and fully expects believers to do his will.

God doesn't require good works. They are fruits of our salvation. We do them because we want to, not because we have to. I am saved because of my faith in Him, not because I have or will do anything.

 

[Gwenyfur]

so, would you say then what Mary endured was more than what Jesus did?

That's the natural progression of logic to that statement.

Nothing strikes fear into the heart of a parent more than their child's suffering, even with just a cold or flu, bike accidents etc...

I cannot imagine Mary's anguish at seeing what was done to her Son...

I cannot imagine standing aside as something like that happened to one of my children...I'd wind up dying in the process of trying to stop it...

I admire the strength and courage it took for her to stand in mute testimony of G-d's will for His Son...I don't know that I'd have that strength.

 

[Gwenyfur]

God doesn't require good works. They are fruits of our salvation. We do them because we want to, not because we have to. I am saved because of my faith in Him, not because I have or will do anything.

He does require works born of our Salvation:

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Scripture is clear that works are required after salvation...else we be just the seed cast on rocky soil....

 

[Uphill Battle]

Nothing strikes fear into the heart of a parent more than their child's suffering, even with just a cold or flu, bike accidents etc...

I cannot imagine Mary's anguish at seeing what was done to her Son...

I cannot imagine standing aside as something like that happened to one of my children...I'd wind up dying in the process of trying to stop it...

I admire the strength and courage it took for her to stand in mute testimony of G-d's will for His Son...I don't know that I'd have that strength.

funny... I don't remember the bible saying anything about the actions or thoughts of Mary whatsoever. Just that she was there.

How would Mary have stopped it, per se?

 

[lionroar0]

No, the Holy Spirit convicts them, makes it possible for us to lead them to the truth. We aren't co-nothing.

What's troubling with statements like these, it is that they border on gnosticism. It's the same "either or" mentality. Flesh evil, can't do anything. Spirit good, does it all.

Peace

 

[PassthePeace1]

so, would you say then what Mary endured was more than what Jesus did?

That's the natural progression of logic to that statement.

I don't think it is a natural progression...because presenting a scenario, that compared two creatures and not one of Jesus and His creation..mankind.

Peace be with you..Pam

 

[sunlover1]

What's troubling with statements like these, it is that they border on gnosticism. It's the same "either or" mentality. Flesh evil, can't do anything. Spirit good, does it all.

Peace

Hi Lion,

I was thinking it was more like,
Man, sheep, was lost.
God, good, did it all for us.

And peace be with you Lion.

 

[lionroar0]

Hi Lion,

I was thinking it was more like,
Man, sheep, was lost.
God, good, did it all for us.

And peace be with you Lion.

He did redeem us but we need to co-operate with that redemption. In other words people can say no. Check out the GA forum. Full of people that have said no to God.

Peace

 

[Rick Otto]

and I don't wanna rain on yer parade every time ya open your mouth just 'cause yer Catholic, but..can you imagine how "bring forth the Word" might sound a little grandiose in comparison to "gave birth to Jesus"?
Can you vicariously sense how it tends to expand her role & function into areas of divine responsibility?
Not that you would have to agree, I'm just curious if you can picture where I'm comin' from.

And also, can you pretend you're Protestant for a second, and see how it kinda puts Mary out of reach as a role model to bestow an Immaculate Conception & perpetual virginity upon her, whether or not we agree God or men's traditions are responsible?

 

[Mobiosity]

What's troubling with statements like these, it is that they border on gnosticism. It's the same "either or" mentality. Flesh evil, can't do anything. Spirit good, does it all.

Peace

You got it !!!!!!!!!

 

[Mobiosity]

He does require works born of our Salvation:

Scripture is clear that works are required after salvation...else we be just the seed cast on rocky soil....

"Passage Ephesians 2:9:
9Not because of works, lest any man should boast." We are not the seed, we are the field.

 

[sunlover1]

He did redeem us but we need to co-operate with that redemption. In other words people can say no. Check out the GA forum. Full of people that have said no to God.

Peace

But that's not the same as cooperating
in someone elses redemption.

Without the shedding of blood there
is no remission of sin.

Jesus is the only one who shed the Blood.

Mary was a blessed woman, but not
our redeemer.
Jesus did that by Himself.

 

[Benedicta00]

I'm aware of that. Nor do I downplay the crucial role that Mary played! However, I would have to disagree that she did "more" for Christendom than a great many people. She played her part as God intended. To say she did more than some of the men who spread the gospel across the world seems afwully silly to me.

I have no idea where you are coming from.

I don't care if you give every oz. of your blood for Christ... you could not have done more for the world's salvation than what Mary did becuase she is who gave us the redeemer.

Don't come back with God is who gave us the redemer.. yes, I know but he didn't do it with out Mary.

You all have some sort of mental block when it comes to even the simplest thing.

Here is the mystery you guys just refuse to get...

You wouldn't think twice if I said I brought fourth my kids. You would not feel the need to remind me that I could not have done it with out my spouse.

I could not have had my kids with out my spouse. I could not have had my kids with out God, I just couldn't have.

But I could not have had my kids with out me either.

You really need to get past this and accept already that Mary "Pro" created with God.

She no more created God than I created my kids. My kids were all planned before the foundations too and I in no way can create a human person, I am not my kids creator, God is.

But you and I both know they are my kids, that I and my spouse brought these kids fourth from the foundations.

Thus we procreate with God. He enlisits the help of man becuase us working with him is how he brings mankind together in union and in harmony and in love.

So the mystery of the incarnation is God joining himslef to a human person in order to join all of us back to him.

It is a mind blowing mystery and no one, no matter who or what they could do, would ever do, could ever do more than what Mary did.

The word made flesh dwelt among us and became one of us through Mary.

God did not just place a already human Jesus in her, she is who gave Jesus his humanity, the flesh and blood that was sacrficed.

No incarnation, no salvation.
.

 

[Benedicta00]

God doesn't require good works. They are fruits of our salvation. We do them because we want to, not because we have to. I am saved because of my faith in Him, not because I have or will do anything.

Faith with out works is dead. .

 

[Benedicta00]

"Passage Ephesians 2:9:
9Not because of works, lest any man should boast." We are not the seed, we are the field.

James 1

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass.

24 For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was.

25 But he that hath looked into the perfect law of liberty, and hath continued therein, not becoming a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2

14What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?

15And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:

16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?

17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

We can not let scripture contradict itself. .

 

[Mobiosity]

Faith with out works is dead. .

So says James, Jesus' brother. Not Jesus.