Co-Redeemer?

[IamAdopted]

Mediatrix
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Much of the devotion to Mary shown by Christians of the Catholic and other Ancient Churches depends upon Mary's mediation. This mediation is seen in terms of Mary's assistance in prayer and in obtaining grace.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Many Protestants oppose prayer to Mary and the Saints, citing this verse:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]"[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]" (I Timothy 2:5). [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]SO IF JESUS IS THE ONE MEDIATOR, WHY PRAY TO MARY?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]As in other cases, Protestant fundamentalists often tend to quote just one verse completely out of context. So let's look at the whole passage.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]"[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]I urge then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings, for all those in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all godliness and holiness. This is good and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]" [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]1Timothy 2:1-5[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]From this full text of the passage we can see three important things:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]1. Paul is asking fellow Christians to pray and intercede with God for those in authority and for other third parties. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]2. These prayers and intercessions are being made on behalf of other people, and to God. This is a mediation of prayer. Christians are being asked to mediate between all people, Christian and non-Christian, and God.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]3. Since this is all one passage, it is absolutely clear that when Paul refers to there being only one mediator between God and men, he is not referring to the mediation of prayer. Jesus's unique mediation is a different mediation - the mediation of our salvation.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Jesus is the one Mediator of our salvation, our only Saviour. But He is not our only intercessor, as the whole passage above clearly indicates. So the one passage that fundamentalists have used to deny intercessionary prayer, when read in context, actually backs up intercessionary prayer.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]YES. BUT WHY SHOULD I ASK MARY OR ANYONE ELSE TO PRAY TO GOD FOR ME WHEN I CAN PRAY TO HIM MYSELF?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]When we are ill, or someone we care for needs prayer, we ask other people to pray to God for us. Why do we do this if our own prayer is enough?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]In James 5. 14-16 we are told to get the Elders of the Church to pray for us and to annoint us when we are sick. Reading on, we find:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]James 5: 16-18 " [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]...The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]." [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]So we see that intercession strengthens prayer. And the more righteous and faithful the intercessor is, the more powerful the prayer.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]BUT THAT IS PRAYER ON EARTH. I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT PEOPLE IN HEAVEN CAN NEITHER SEE US OR PRAY FOR US.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]That is a recent, man-made doctrine, with no authority behind it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Hebrews 12.1 speaks of "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]a great cloud of witnesses[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]" who surround us, and who consist of the faithful holy ones of God. Many examples of these witnesses are given in the preceding Chapter 11 of Hebrews. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Later in the Bible we see this vision of heaven:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Revelation 4.4: [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Surrounding the throne were twenty four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Revelation 5.8: [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]...and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The twenty-four elders are shown offering the prayers of Christians to God; which is a mediatory role.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]WHY MARY IN PARTICULAR?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The basic creed of Christianity, the Nicene Creed, accepted by all Trinitarian Christian Churches, refers to the [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Communion of Saints[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]. All Christians in heaven and on earth are together (i.e. in communion) through Christ. As we have seen, those in heaven can witness what goes on on earth and offer prayers to God. This intercession is powerful, because those in heaven are truly "righteous". [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Of all creatures in heaven, Mary is closest to God, being the God-bearer. As a fellow Christian, and indeed the first Christian, she has access to the throne of grace through Jesus. As the Mother of all Christians, she cares and intercedes for her children. As the Heavenly Queen Mother (see above) it is her office to make requests of the King of Kings. Therefore Mary's intercessionary prayer is the most powerful and effective.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Seeking Mary's intercession probably dates back to the earliest Christians. One of the oldest Christian prayers recorded in writing, the Sub Tuum, from the 200s AD, is a prayer to Mary:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]We fly to your patronage, O holy Mother of God.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Despise not our petitions in our necessities,[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]But deliver us from all dangers,[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]O ever-glorious and Blessed Virgin! [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]BUT I DON'T NEED MARY WHEN I CAN GO DIRECTLY TO GOD.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Why not say "I don't need the rest of my family as long as I have my father"? The Church is a single body; the different members interelate and rely on one another: "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The eye cannot say unto the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you![/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]" (I Co 12:21). [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]WHY DO WE NEED MARY?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Mary has a vital part in the entire work of redemption. The Lord does not want to save us without our participation. He seeks our voluntary acceptance of salvation. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]He stands at the door, knocks and waits.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] (Rev. 3:10). [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]In the same way, since the incarnation of the Son of God was necessary for the salvation of the human race, that incarnation would not be achieved by force, but needed the consent of the chosen one. Thus the incarnation, and the salvation of the entire human race were brought about to a major extent because the Virgin Mary, by faith, consented to God's plan.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]"[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]" (Luke 1:38)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The extent of Mary's act of faith is often overlooked. She was a single virgin, betrothed to Joseph, and giving birth to a fatherless child would place her in dire peril of disgrace, abandonment and possibly much worse, in a society that customarily stoned adulterers to death. Nor did she know what Joseph's or her family's personal reaction would be. Yet she did not hesitate to accept God's commission. Her trust in God made her the first Christian believer and the first among the redeemed. As the Mother of God, the girl from Galilee became the highest created being. When she said "yes" to God her answer was on behalf of the whole human race. Just as Eve's disobedience was on behalf of the whole human race. In this way, the Virgin Mary's significance in the work of our salvation is of the first order. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]St. Irenaeus Against Heresies (circa 189 A.D.) :[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]..the virgin Eve, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, was unhappily led astray,-- yet that deception was done away with because the Virgin Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, heard the truth spoken by an angel, and was obedient. For just as the former was led astray by the word of an angel, so that she fled from God when she had transgressed His word; so did the latter, by an angelic communication receive the glad tidings that she should [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]sustain (portaret) God, being obedient to His word. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The former disobeyed God, yet the latter was persuaded to be obedient to God, so that the Virgin Mary might become patroness (advocata) of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. In the same way the sin of the first created man (protoplasti) is made amends by the correction of the First-begotten, the coming of the serpent is conquered by the harmlessness of the dove, those bonds being unloosed by which we had been fast bound to death.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]In reference to the Blessed Virgin, St. Ephraem (373) said: "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]With the Mediator, you are the Mediatrix of the entire world[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]" Antipater of Bostra, a Father of the Council of Ephesus (AD 431), wrote: "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Hail you who acceptably intercede as a Mediatrix for mankind."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Revelation 12.17: [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring - those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Having been given to all Christians by Jesus as their heavenly Mother, Mary is always there for the help of her children.[/FONT]

http://www.ourladyweb.com/mary-defended.html

You bring Mary into scripture where she is not.. In Revelation this is not speaking of Mary..There were many before her redeemed. Those in the Old testement that believed without seeing Christ were also redeemed. These were the first redeemed of the Lord. This is whom when He died and rose from the dead He rose them up from the dead also. For He is the ressurection.

 

[IamAdopted]

You bring Mary into scripture where she is not.. In Revelation this is not speaking of Mary..There were many before her redeemed. Those in the Old testement that believed without seeing Christ were also redeemed. These were the first redeemed of the Lord. This is whom when He died and rose from the dead He rose them up from the dead also. For He is the ressurection.

Paul never prayed to those whom went before Him. He didn't pray or tell us to pray to Stephen or Moses or Abraham. Look carefully at the scripture you quoted.He is asking living people to pray for each other. Not dead saints.. We have one mediator between us and God and that is Jesus. Not Mary. She in no way has been given this title by any of the Apostles nor in the word of God anywhere. So therefore this is added to scripture and claimed as tradtion. Praying to the dead is prohibited in the OT and God is the same today as He was back then..

 

[Rick Otto]

you saw right thru the fluff.

 

[StTherese]

Paul never prayed to those whom went before Him. He didn't pray or tell us to pray to Stephen or Moses or Abraham. Look carefully at the scripture you quoted.He is asking living people to pray for each other. Not dead saints.. We have one mediator between us and God and that is Jesus. Not Mary. She in no way has been given this title by any of the Apostles nor in the word of God anywhere. So therefore this is added to scripture and claimed as tradtion. Praying to the dead is prohibited in the OT and God is the same today as He was back then..

Saints are not dead...they are more alive than we are...

Well, you may not accept the title Mediatrix, but there is no denying that as a result of Mary's obedience to the will of God that we have the Messiah.

It is difficult to have a discussion about this when we obviously have different interpretations of what the scriptures say and the neglect of Sacred Tradition.

 

[IamAdopted]

Saints are not dead...they are more alive than we are...

Well, you may not accept the title Mediatrix, but there is no denying that as a result of Mary's obedience to the will of God that we have the Messiah.

It is difficult to have a discussion about this when we obviously have different interpretations of what the scriptures say and the neglect of Sacred Tradition.

Well just as God could have made the Children of Abraham out of Rocks as He said.. God would have found a way even if she would have said no but since Mary was Gods servant She said yes just as we women do today when He asks us to do things such as stand on His word...

 

[Mary of Bethany]

then she didn't NEED redemption.

This is a topic for another thread, but . . . . .

yes, she would have.


Mary

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

what would happen if the womans name was Henrietta?? GOD KNEW before that Mary would say yes..BUT if she had said NO...guess what? GOD would be smart enough to pick someone else! This whole thing is nuts...

 

[benedictine]

Paul never prayed to those whom went before Him. He didn't pray or tell us to pray to Stephen or Moses or Abraham. Look carefully at the scripture you quoted.He is asking living people to pray for each other. Not dead saints.. We have one mediator between us and God and that is Jesus. Not Mary. She in no way has been given this title by any of the Apostles nor in the word of God anywhere. So therefore this is added to scripture and claimed as tradtion. Praying to the dead is prohibited in the OT and God is the same today as He was back then..

On that note, I am commissioning the construction of a Temple wherin I will immediately sacrifice my neighbor's cow Maybell, after my family transfers our sins to it. Following that, I will stone my brother for disrespecting my mother.

 

[Iollain]

Vicious, un-called-for personal attack, not becoming a supposed grown man nor a Christian.

The only one who is being viciously attacked by that Co-Redeemer title of Mary is Jesus Christ.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

apparently, truth hurts.

 

[sunlover1]

It is difficult to have a discussion about this when we obviously have different interpretations of what the scriptures say and the neglect of Sacred Tradition.

Yes.
It's like two entirely different religions.

 

[StTherese]

what would happen if the womans name was Henrietta?? GOD KNEW before that Mary would say yes..BUT if she had said NO...guess what? GOD would be smart enough to pick someone else! This whole thing is nuts...

God also knows the ones who will ignore His grace...but He still doesn't neglect any of us.

Peace be with you.

 

[StTherese]

apparently, truth hurts.

Apparently, it does!

 

[StTherese]

Well just as God could have made the Children of Abraham out of Rocks as He said.. God would have found a way even if she would have said no but since Mary was Gods servant She said yes just as we women do today when He asks us to do things such as stand on His word...

Yes..God could have chose some other way...but He didn't. He chose Mary to be His mother and through her obedience, we have our redeemer...THIS was God's plan.

 

[Iollain]

As we may see, the mystery of the RCC redemption stands in their church like a great tree of doctrine which never ceases to flower.

What next.

 

[IamAdopted]

Saints are not dead...they are more alive than we are...

Well, you may not accept the title Mediatrix, but there is no denying that as a result of Mary's obedience to the will of God that we have the Messiah.

It is difficult to have a discussion about this when we obviously have different interpretations of what the scriptures say and the neglect of Sacred Tradition.

They may be alive with Christ but they are not alive to us.. They don't even have their resurrected bodies yet..

 

[StTherese]

As we may see, the mystery of the RCC redemption stands in their church like a great tree of doctrine which never ceases to flower.

What next.

Jesus says, "I am the vine, you are the branches" (Jn 15:5)


In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (Gen.2:9).
The Tree of Life is the Jesus of the Book of Revelation:
- To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. (Rev.2:7).
- Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. (Rev.22:1-2).
The tree of life is Jesus... the river of life is the Church of Jesus, the same river of Genesis 2:10.
The Tree of Life is also the Church of Christ of Mat.13:
He told them another parable: The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches. (Mat.13:31-32, Lk.13:19).
Only one tree, only one Church of Christ (Jn.14, 1Cor.12, Rom.12, 1Pet.2).
Adam and Eve choose to eat from the forbidden tree, instead of from the tree of life... we often do the same, we eat from the forbidding Commandments of God, instead of eating from Jesus and His Church.


http://biblia.com/jesusbible/genesis2.htm

 

[IamAdopted]

On that note, I am commissioning the construction of a Temple wherin I will immediately sacrifice my neighbor's cow Maybell, after my family transfers our sins to it. Following that, I will stone my brother for disrespecting my mother.

Well if that suits your fancy.. Won't do any good. Christ has already payed the price for man kinds sin. There is no other way to the Father except through Him. God does not change... He is the same yesterday today and forever. The covenant has Changed But we still serve the same God..

 

[IamAdopted]

1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Okay this does tell us that Jesus is the true vine.. Here is the rest of what you quoted.

1"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands: 2I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. 4Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. 5Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Look and see what they are to over come.. They need to return to their fist Love which is Christ.. Are you trying to say that Jesus is the tree of life?

 

[StTherese]

Okay this does tell us that Jesus is the true vine.. Here is the rest of what you quoted. Look and see what they are to over come.. They need to return to their fist Love which is Christ.. Are you trying to say that Jesus is the tree of life?

did you read the rest of my post?...

The tree of life is Jesus... the river of life is the Church of Jesus, the same river of Genesis 2:10.
The Tree of Life is also the Church of Christ of Mat.13:
He told them another parable: The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches. (Mat.13:31-32, Lk.13:19).
Only one tree, only one Church of Christ (Jn.14, 1Cor.12, Rom.12, 1Pet.2).
Adam and Eve choose to eat from the forbidden tree, instead of from the tree of life... we often do the same, we eat from the forbidding Commandments of God, instead of eating from Jesus and His Church.