Co-Redeemer?

[benedictine]

The word itself is not in there this is true but you see the trinity at work from Genesis to Revelation.. You don't see Mary being referred to at all for being the new Eve. In fact it is not even hinted at.. Someone somewhere along the line must have thought this on thier own.. Husband and wife = Mother and Son? Nope don't add up.

The familial relationship is not what's important. What matters is the fact that they reversed what Adam and Eve did. A woman said no; another woman said yes.

 

[Iollain]

The familial relationship is not what's important. What matters is the fact that they reversed what Adam and Eve did. A woman said no; another woman said yes.

You can compare her to the new-whatever-ya-want, it does not make here immaculately conceived or co-redemptress or any other of the dogmas you have.

 

[Rick Otto]

Veritas said it wasn't a teaching & yet here are two popes teaching it:

Pius XI: “You young people [Spanish pilgrims] ought to associate yourselves with the thoughts and desires of our Blessed Lady, who is our Mother and Co‑redemptrix.

DICT XV: 'The Blessed Virgin suffered with her suffering Son and nearly died with Him when He died; she abdicated her maternal rights over her Son for the salvation of men, and so far as it appertained to her she immolated her Son to placate the divine justice; so that she may rightly be said to have redeemed the human race with Christ."

benedictine, you said;
"She assisted in the Salvation of Mankind, by reversing the curse of Eve."

>But it was Jesus who reversed the curse, and the curse was from Adam, not Eve.
How am I wrong about this?

This is a perfect example of usurpation, and the reason for the name of this thread.

 

[simonthezealot]

They can say anything they want, but unless it is carved in offical stone, they can't be held accountable for it?

Damage control usualy heads for redefinition, first. It is the flip side of obscuring with sophisticated redundancies.

The other infamous apologetic strategy to come out shortly will be personal attacks.
So we have;
1.)Redefinition
2.) obscuring with sophisticated redundancies. (good one Rick)
3.) Resorting to personal attacks.

All these replace defending your beliefs?

I think it was our good sister, Pam(PassThePeace) that told us That they know their traditions are right beacause they come from the same "Deposit of Faith".
What is the "Deposit of Faith"? The New Catholic Dictionary defines it as Scripture & Tradition.

To me many of their traditions seem like a "withdrawal of faith"

 

[IamAdopted]

The familial relationship is not what's important. What matters is the fact that they reversed what Adam and Eve did. A woman said no; another woman said yes.

Still does not make her the new Eve.. Many women say yes to the Lord.. She still is not Co-Redemtrix.. I just wonder why she carries this tile and where it originated from. Who gave her this title? Why did they give her this title.. We only have one redeemer.. Christ.. He is Him that redeems us from our sins..

 

[Rick Otto]

"In the spotlight, losin' my religion..." REM

I'mAdopted. Veritas said everybody who co-operates with God is a co-redeemer.

So how's it feel, helpin' Jesus save the world?
Could He have done it without ya? No Way! You are the mighty Co-Redeemer!"
Don the cape & tights!

 

[Iollain]

What gets me is they say Mary gave up her motherly rights at the cross...........do people actually think Mary could have stopped the Crucifixion? They would have just shoved her aside or killed her, there was nothing she could have done at all.

 

[Iollain]

Still does not make her the new Eve.. Many women say yes to the Lord.. She still is not Co-Redemtrix.. I just wonder why she carries this tile and where it originated from. Who gave her this title? Why did they give her this title.. We only have one redeemer.. Christ.. He is Him that redeems us from our sins..

32. Whence then is the substance of the first-formed (man)? From the Will and the Wisdom |99 of God, and from the virgin earth.91 For God had not sent rain, the Scripture says, upon the earth, before man was made; and there was no man to till the earth.92 From this, then, whilst it was still virgin, God took dust of the earth and formed the man, the beginning of mankind. So then the Lord, summing up afresh this man, took the same dispensation of entry into flesh, being born from the Virgin by the Will and the Wisdom of God; that He also should show forth the likeness of Adam's entry into flesh,2 and there should be that which was written in the beginning, man after the image and likeness of God.93

33. And just as through a disobedient virgin man was stricken down and fell into death, so through the Virgin who was obedient to the Word of God man was reanimated and received life.94 For the Lord came to seek again the sheep that |100 was lost;95 and man it was that was lost: and for this cause there was not made some other formation, but in that same which had its descent from Adam He preserved the likeness of the (first) formation.96 For it was necessary that Adam should be summed up in Christ, that mortality might be swallowed up and overwhelmed by immortality; and Eve summed up in Mary, that a virgin should be a virgin's intercessor, and by a virgin's obedience undo and put away the disobedience of a virgin.97

34. And the trespass which came by the tree was undone by the tree of obedience



http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/irenaeus_02_proof.htm



Probably from Irenaeus, but even with his take on things, that is not an excuse to give a title of Co-Redemptress.......and then to add on to it thousands of years later that Mary is still our co-redemptress in how she supposidly hands out the grace and is the decisionmaker of where it goes.

 

[Rick Otto]

"... she abdicated her maternal rights over her Son for the salvation of men, and so far as it appertained to her she immolated her Son to placate the divine justice"

That would make her a priestess and open ordination to women:
immolation:
1: to offer in sacrifice; especially : to kill as a sacrificial victim2: to kill or destroy often by fire

This renders her divine:
so through the Virgin who was obedient to the Word of God man was reanimated and received life.

It was through God's mercy, not Mary's obedience. Man is reanimated by God, not by Mary.

 

[IamAdopted]

"... she abdicated her maternal rights over her Son for the salvation of men, and so far as it appertained to her she immolated her Son to placate the divine justice"

That would make her a priestess and open ordination to women:
immolation:
1: to offer in sacrifice; especially : to kill as a sacrificial victim2: to kill or destroy often by fire

This renders her divine:
so through the Virgin who was obedient to the Word of God man was reanimated and received life.

It was through God's mercy, not Mary's obedience. Man is reanimated by God, not by Mary.

Our redemption comes at the death of Christ. This is where men are redeemed..Mary did not suffer and die for our sins.. She couldn't she was not the spotless lamb.. Jesus offered Himself up. She didn't offer Him up. Hebrews 9

14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

We were reconciled to God by Christ Death..Romans 5

10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

 

[Rick Otto]

then she didn't NEED redemption.

 

[Iollain]

This renders her divine:
so through the Virgin who was obedient to the Word of God man was reanimated and received life.

It was through God's mercy, not Mary's obedience. Man is reanimated by God, not by Mary.

No Irenaeus did not mean that it was Mary that whom man was reanimated and recieved life........he means that God chose this Virgin, capital V because she is The Virgin who is important to human history and was prophecied in the OT.........this Virgin was chosen, and just as from Eve who was fooled by the serpent, passed the fruit to Adam, who knew it was wrong but did it anyways. So it went through Eve's hands (but she was not responsible for the fall, Adam was). This Redeemer of mankind comes through Mary, as Mary did hear and believe.

However one must admit that the circumstances were a bit different, Eve was fooled by a serpent, Mary was not fooled, but believed the angel. That is the great thing about Mary, she believed in the face of 'tradition' that the Messiah would come to a rich, powerful family, not a poor young woman like herself. God can work through faith like that.

So i don't think Ireny was trying to say that it was 'through' in that way.

 

[Rick Otto]

Point taken.

 

[benedictine]

32. Whence then is the substance of the first-formed (man)? From the Will and the Wisdom |99 of God, and from the virgin earth.91 For God had not sent rain, the Scripture says, upon the earth, before man was made; and there was no man to till the earth.92 From this, then, whilst it was still virgin, God took dust of the earth and formed the man, the beginning of mankind. So then the Lord, summing up afresh this man, took the same dispensation of entry into flesh, being born from the Virgin by the Will and the Wisdom of God; that He also should show forth the likeness of Adam's entry into flesh,2 and there should be that which was written in the beginning, man after the image and likeness of God.93

33. And just as through a disobedient virgin man was stricken down and fell into death, so through the Virgin who was obedient to the Word of God man was reanimated and received life.94 For the Lord came to seek again the sheep that |100 was lost;95 and man it was that was lost: and for this cause there was not made some other formation, but in that same which had its descent from Adam He preserved the likeness of the (first) formation.96 For it was necessary that Adam should be summed up in Christ, that mortality might be swallowed up and overwhelmed by immortality; and Eve summed up in Mary, that a virgin should be a virgin's intercessor, and by a virgin's obedience undo and put away the disobedience of a virgin.97

34. And the trespass which came by the tree was undone by the tree of obedience



http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/irenaeus_02_proof.htm



Probably from Irenaeus, but even with his take on things, that is not an excuse to give a title of Co-Redemptress.......and then to add on to it thousands of years later that Mary is still our co-redemptress in how she supposidly hands out the grace and is the decisionmaker of where it goes.

OK, the whole Mediatrix thing needs to be sorted out right now, or I'm getting out of this thread. The title of Mediatrix of All Graces is NOT church teaching. If a person believes this, oh well, but it is not the teaching of the church.

 

[benedictine]

then she didn't NEED redemption.

She still needed redemption because she was human. Without Jesus, she would never have been concieved without sin, because she was saved by Jesus at the moment of her conception.

To say that it is impossible for a person before the ressurection to have been saved is to put God into a box.

 

[Iollain]

Sure if you want to get Calvanistic about it, she was saved because she was the elect by the foreknowledge of God, but not by any immaculate conception that makes her something that Adam was not. That is one thing that God does not do....cheat. All all Adam and all need a Saviour.

 

[StTherese]

You can compare her to the new-whatever-ya-want, it does not make here immaculately conceived or co-redemptress or any other of the dogmas you have.

And it doesn't make it false just because you disagree with it!

 

[Iollain]

Nope, it makes them false because they are not true.

 

[StTherese]

Mediatrix
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Much of the devotion to Mary shown by Christians of the Catholic and other Ancient Churches depends upon Mary's mediation. This mediation is seen in terms of Mary's assistance in prayer and in obtaining grace.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Many Protestants oppose prayer to Mary and the Saints, citing this verse:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]"[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]" (I Timothy 2:5). [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]SO IF JESUS IS THE ONE MEDIATOR, WHY PRAY TO MARY?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]As in other cases, Protestant fundamentalists often tend to quote just one verse completely out of context. So let's look at the whole passage.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]"[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]I urge then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings, for all those in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all godliness and holiness. This is good and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]" [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]1Timothy 2:1-5[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]From this full text of the passage we can see three important things:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]1. Paul is asking fellow Christians to pray and intercede with God for those in authority and for other third parties. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]2. These prayers and intercessions are being made on behalf of other people, and to God. This is a mediation of prayer. Christians are being asked to mediate between all people, Christian and non-Christian, and God.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]3. Since this is all one passage, it is absolutely clear that when Paul refers to there being only one mediator between God and men, he is not referring to the mediation of prayer. Jesus's unique mediation is a different mediation - the mediation of our salvation.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Jesus is the one Mediator of our salvation, our only Saviour. But He is not our only intercessor, as the whole passage above clearly indicates. So the one passage that fundamentalists have used to deny intercessionary prayer, when read in context, actually backs up intercessionary prayer.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]YES. BUT WHY SHOULD I ASK MARY OR ANYONE ELSE TO PRAY TO GOD FOR ME WHEN I CAN PRAY TO HIM MYSELF?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]When we are ill, or someone we care for needs prayer, we ask other people to pray to God for us. Why do we do this if our own prayer is enough?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]In James 5. 14-16 we are told to get the Elders of the Church to pray for us and to annoint us when we are sick. Reading on, we find:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]James 5: 16-18 " [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]...The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]." [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]So we see that intercession strengthens prayer. And the more righteous and faithful the intercessor is, the more powerful the prayer.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]BUT THAT IS PRAYER ON EARTH. I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT PEOPLE IN HEAVEN CAN NEITHER SEE US OR PRAY FOR US.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]That is a recent, man-made doctrine, with no authority behind it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Hebrews 12.1 speaks of "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]a great cloud of witnesses[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]" who surround us, and who consist of the faithful holy ones of God. Many examples of these witnesses are given in the preceding Chapter 11 of Hebrews. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Later in the Bible we see this vision of heaven:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Revelation 4.4: [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Surrounding the throne were twenty four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Revelation 5.8: [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]...and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The twenty-four elders are shown offering the prayers of Christians to God; which is a mediatory role.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]WHY MARY IN PARTICULAR?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The basic creed of Christianity, the Nicene Creed, accepted by all Trinitarian Christian Churches, refers to the [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Communion of Saints[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]. All Christians in heaven and on earth are together (i.e. in communion) through Christ. As we have seen, those in heaven can witness what goes on on earth and offer prayers to God. This intercession is powerful, because those in heaven are truly "righteous". [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Of all creatures in heaven, Mary is closest to God, being the God-bearer. As a fellow Christian, and indeed the first Christian, she has access to the throne of grace through Jesus. As the Mother of all Christians, she cares and intercedes for her children. As the Heavenly Queen Mother (see above) it is her office to make requests of the King of Kings. Therefore Mary's intercessionary prayer is the most powerful and effective.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Seeking Mary's intercession probably dates back to the earliest Christians. One of the oldest Christian prayers recorded in writing, the Sub Tuum, from the 200s AD, is a prayer to Mary:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]We fly to your patronage, O holy Mother of God.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Despise not our petitions in our necessities,[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]But deliver us from all dangers,[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]O ever-glorious and Blessed Virgin! [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]BUT I DON'T NEED MARY WHEN I CAN GO DIRECTLY TO GOD.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Why not say "I don't need the rest of my family as long as I have my father"? The Church is a single body; the different members interelate and rely on one another: "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The eye cannot say unto the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you![/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]" (I Co 12:21). [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]WHY DO WE NEED MARY?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Mary has a vital part in the entire work of redemption. The Lord does not want to save us without our participation. He seeks our voluntary acceptance of salvation. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]He stands at the door, knocks and waits.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] (Rev. 3:10). [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]In the same way, since the incarnation of the Son of God was necessary for the salvation of the human race, that incarnation would not be achieved by force, but needed the consent of the chosen one. Thus the incarnation, and the salvation of the entire human race were brought about to a major extent because the Virgin Mary, by faith, consented to God's plan.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]"[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]" (Luke 1:38)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The extent of Mary's act of faith is often overlooked. She was a single virgin, betrothed to Joseph, and giving birth to a fatherless child would place her in dire peril of disgrace, abandonment and possibly much worse, in a society that customarily stoned adulterers to death. Nor did she know what Joseph's or her family's personal reaction would be. Yet she did not hesitate to accept God's commission. Her trust in God made her the first Christian believer and the first among the redeemed. As the Mother of God, the girl from Galilee became the highest created being. When she said "yes" to God her answer was on behalf of the whole human race. Just as Eve's disobedience was on behalf of the whole human race. In this way, the Virgin Mary's significance in the work of our salvation is of the first order. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]St. Irenaeus Against Heresies (circa 189 A.D.) :[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]..the virgin Eve, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, was unhappily led astray,-- yet that deception was done away with because the Virgin Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, heard the truth spoken by an angel, and was obedient. For just as the former was led astray by the word of an angel, so that she fled from God when she had transgressed His word; so did the latter, by an angelic communication receive the glad tidings that she should [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]sustain (portaret) God, being obedient to His word. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The former disobeyed God, yet the latter was persuaded to be obedient to God, so that the Virgin Mary might become patroness (advocata) of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. In the same way the sin of the first created man (protoplasti) is made amends by the correction of the First-begotten, the coming of the serpent is conquered by the harmlessness of the dove, those bonds being unloosed by which we had been fast bound to death.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]In reference to the Blessed Virgin, St. Ephraem (373) said: "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]With the Mediator, you are the Mediatrix of the entire world[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]" Antipater of Bostra, a Father of the Council of Ephesus (AD 431), wrote: "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Hail you who acceptably intercede as a Mediatrix for mankind."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Revelation 12.17: [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring - those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Having been given to all Christians by Jesus as their heavenly Mother, Mary is always there for the help of her children.[/FONT]

http://www.ourladyweb.com/mary-defended.html

 

[Veritas]

"In the spotlight, losin' my religion..." REM

I'mAdopted. Veritas said everybody who co-operates with God is a co-redeemer.

So how's it feel, helpin' Jesus save the world?
Could He have done it without ya? No Way! You are the mighty Co-Redeemer!"
Don the cape & tights!

Vicious, un-called-for personal attack, not becoming a supposed grown man nor a Christian.