Closed communion

[Nostromo19]

Have you thought about simply converting. Becuase it would be different if the situation were reversed - the Anglicans would openly embrace you.

 

[ThePilgrim]

Have you thought about simply converting. Becuase it would be different if the situation were reversed - the Anglicans would openly embrace you.

While it's true that if he were a Catholic or an Orthodox, the Anglicans would still allow him to take communion, he couldn't do that and still stay in good standing with his own Church.

Grace and peace,
Fr. John

 

[Nostromo19]

I thought about that. It is just too sad to me that Christendom is in such a divisive state. I wonder what Jesus thinks about the divisive sectarian rancor. I pray for eventual re-unification into one holy, catholic and apostolic church.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

I thought about that. It is just too sad to me that Christendom is in such a divisive state. I wonder what Jesus thinks about the divisive sectarian rancor. I pray for eventual re-unification into one holy, catholic and apostolic church.

It exists already in the spiritual realm.

But yeah, it'd be nice in the material realm too.

 

[mfaust]

I thought about that. It is just too sad to me that Christendom is in such a divisive state. I wonder what Jesus thinks about the divisive sectarian rancor. I pray for eventual re-unification into one holy, catholic and apostolic church.

No kidding. I bet he is thinking right now... "Why don't they all just sit down and agree that the Word of Faith people have it right?"
















Just kidding!

 

[Nostromo19]

What's "word of faith?"

 

[mfaust]

My apologies. I was just trying to be funny.

But to answer your question, Word of Faith is a Charismatic Pentacostal(?) Christian Group.
They have their own forum here on CF.

I honestly know nothing more about them than that.

 

[Nostromo19]

Thanks. I think that 90 percent of Christians have most beliefs in common. Not sure about Word of Faith, but I bet if you sat a Baptist, Catholic and an Orthodox down and wrote down what they really believed, their basic beliefs would be pretty close.

 

[InnerPhyre]

If that principle were actually applied, half the members of the parish would not be permitted to commune. Obviously, that isn't happening.

Most Sundays at an Orthodox Liturgy, you will see several members of the parish abstaining from Holy Communion because they have not prepared themselves adequately by fasting and confessing their sins. This is normal. Better to hold off for a week than to bring condemnation upon yourself by communing when not prepared.

 

[MichaelNZ]

Most Sundays at an Orthodox Liturgy, you will see several members of the parish abstaining from Holy Communion because they have not prepared themselves adequately by fasting and confessing their sins. This is normal. Better to hold off for a week than to bring condemnation upon yourself by communing when not prepared.

At the Greek Orthodox Cathedral here in Wellington, I saw only a few people go up for Communion. Most didn't receive.

 

[Albion]

Most Sundays at an Orthodox Liturgy, you will see several members of the parish abstaining from Holy Communion because they have not prepared themselves adequately by fasting and confessing their sins. This is normal. Better to hold off for a week than to bring condemnation upon yourself by communing when not prepared.

I'm sure, but that wasn't the issue I was commenting on. Rather, it was that the priest doesn't actually have any way of screening out all those members of his own parish who might be unworthy, according to Orthodox standards, of communing. If a member's secret sins should prevent him from communing, but he does so anyway, it narrows the difference between those churches that practice a limited open communion and those which practice a closed communion.

 

[InnerPhyre]

I'm sure, but that wasn't the issue I was commenting on. Rather, it was that the priest doesn't actually have any way of screening out all those members of his own parish who might be unworthy, according to Orthodox standards, of communing. If a member's secret sins should prevent him from communing, but he does so anyway, it narrows the difference between those churches that practice a limited open communion and those which practice a closed communion.

We do not have secret sins. We confess our sins to God in the presence of our priests, who in turn protect the chalice and determine whether or not we should be receiving Holy Communion.

If someone, for reasons that I truly cannot fathom, decided they wanted to lie during confession, and deceive their priest for the purposes of Communing unworthily, I suppose this could be done. No one is claiming the system is foolproof, just that priests take this seriously and usually do their best to make sure no one is Communing to the detriment or death of their soul.

 

[Albion]

We do not have secret sins. We confess our sins to God in the presence of our priests, who in turn protect the chalice and determine whether or not we should be receiving Holy Communion.

And those who decline to confess some of their sins? The theory you advance is nice, but I was speaking of the reality.

 

[MKJ]

And those who decline to confess some of their sins? The theory you advance is nice, but I was speaking of the reality.

It seemed to me that InnerPhyre addressed that - the priest of course would not under normal circumstances have any way to know that someone gave a dishonest confession.

But I think the clear teaching that it is required, and the fairly rigorous application, gives people quite a different attitude than one typically sees in Anglican settings. I cannot easily imagine some of the things that happen commonly in an Anglican Eucharist happening in an Orthodox setting.

 

[InnerPhyre]

And those who decline to confess some of their sins? The theory you advance is nice, but I was speaking of the reality.

Before a penitent confesses, the priest says the following out loud:

"Behold, my child, Christ stands here invisibly receiving your confession. Do not be ashamed and do not fear, and do not withhold anything from me; but without doubt tell all you have done and receive forgiveness from the Lord Jesus Christ. Lo, His holy image is before us, and I am only a witness, bearing testimony before Him of all things which you say to me. But if you conceal anything from me, you shall have the greater sin. Take heed, therefore, lest having come to the physician, you depart unhealed."

You act like the Orthodox haven't thought of any of these things. Holding back sins in confession is a very serious matter, which is why the priest gives this warning at the beginning of the mystery.

If in spite of this warning, you knowingly withhold sins that you have committed and still decide to approach the chalice, knowing that you are going around a priest who has taken every effort to determine whether or not you should be receiving because he cares for the state of your soul, you need to reexamine why you are even going to an Orthodox Church in the first place, because your motives are most likely nefarious at this point.

 

[Albion]

It seemed to me that InnerPhyre addressed that - the priest of course would not under normal circumstances have any way to know that someone gave a dishonest confession.

But I think the clear teaching that it is required, and the fairly rigorous application, gives people quite a different attitude than one typically sees in Anglican settings. I cannot easily imagine some of the things that happen commonly in an Anglican Eucharist happening in an Orthodox setting.

This particular side issue came from my having responded to the usual EO claims about no one being communed who is unworthy, etc, etc. by noting that there is no way that the priest can know that for sure. I'm sticking with that statement unless someone comes up with proof that every EO priest in the world has the ability to mind-read.

InnerPhyre has now agreed that it is possible to conceal one's sins from the priest and still receive communion, so there is nothing more to debate.

.

 

[Albion]

Holding back sins in confession is a very serious matter, which is why the priest gives this warning at the beginning of the mystery.

If in spite of this warning, you knowingly withhold sins that you have committed and still decide to approach the chalice, knowing that you are going around a priest who has taken every effort to determine whether or not you should be receiving because he cares for the state of your soul, you need to reexamine why you are even going to an Orthodox Church in the first place.

That's hardly any different from the practice in open communion churches...and therefore, it is not worth an argument trying to make it seem as though there IS any big difference.

 

[MKJ]

That's hardly any different from the practice in open communion churches...and therefore, it is not worth an argument trying to make it seem as though there IS any big difference.

I realize this is a low blow, but I think it is to the point: no one in an Orthodox parish would ever think of communing someone's dog. Anyone can approach in an Anglican parish with no idea that any real preparation is required - in an Orthodox setting one would have to be pretty dense not to know that making a false confession was a bad bad thing.

 

[Albion]

I realize this is a low blow, but I think it is to the point: no one in an Orthodox parish would ever think of communing someone's dog.

And you are maintaining that to have a parish policy of the kind that is usually described as "open communion" means, necessarily, that household pets are communed??

....and BTW, why would you describe this as a "low blow?" It's your church that you've described there, isn't it, not mine.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Albion, I don't think anyone argued that no one ever communes unworthily in the Orthodox Church. Rather, the point was made that the Orthodox Church at least takes reasonable precautions to ensure that at least if people do commune unworthily, it is not out of ignorance or by accident. They are informed. They know the risks. And under normal circumstances, they cannot commune unworthily EXCEPT by willfully deceiving a priest, which is another sin and of itself.

Your argument is kind of like saying the Orthodox don't enforce their rule about getting a priest's blessing before entering the altar because you could technically break into a church and pee on the altar while no one was looking.