cleanliness revisited

[Thomas]

Hi. I made a thread about this a while ago, some of you may remember it. I didn't reply to it, although I did read the replies, which were of help and for which I'm thankful. You see, I posted the same thing on another forum and the folks over there offered considerable help, but still I should've replied here as well, especially because I think I can get some good insight at Christian Forums too.

So I'm starting this new thread. I'll link to the threads I started at 5solas.org.

http://forums.5solas.org/showthread.php?t=1617
http://forums.5solas.org/showthread.php?t=1622
http://forums.5solas.org/showthread.php?t=1633

For those who don't know, the issue is basically this: had problems with masturbation. Still have, but that's not the issue right now. The thing is, I started considering everything that could potentially have got into contact with my sperm as spiritually impure. Yes, like in the Old Testament. So I went about washing and cleaning things to an exaggerated extent. I think I'm obsessive-compulsive. I have an appointmente with the psychologist for next week.

I just want to bring it up here so that I can see what people over here can say. I still have doubts about how clean is clean enough, I still feel that using something potentially "contaminated" is sinful even if the supposed contamination it's unnoticeable, I still fear divine punishment for it... So I guess I still need help, so here I am asking for it. Thanks.

 

[Youth Minister]

It's really sad to see people suffer because they have been given totally false information by people ignorant of biology.Sperm are not at all unclean.They create human life and are completely sanitary.The only time a health problem exists is if a sexual disease has been contacted.Masturbation is a natural bodily process used to eliminate old sperm that are no longer useful.It is a process similar to urination,a technique to remove waste material from the body.If it is not engaged in,the waste material will be eliminated automatically and involuntarily,usually while trying to sleep.It is really tragic that ignorant people claim that our body and the way it functions is sinful.What they are doing is saying that God who designed our bodies is guilty of sin.The only time sin can come into the use of our waste disposal systems is if pornography is introduced.In that case it is the pornography that's the problem and not the process of removing waste material.It really is a moral offense to make people feel so guilty about their bodies that they develop severe psychological problems,worrying about non-existent impurity,or in other cases,give up their religious faith completely because they can never stop the "sin" of using their bodies the way God designed it to function.The real sin is filling other people with fear and self-loathing for engaging in an absolutely necessary bodily function that has been proven to reduce the risk of prostrate cancer and has the added benefit of eliminating sexual desire which greatly reduces the chance of engaging in the full range of sexual problems in our society ranging from from abortion to rape.This issue is much more than ignorant people trying to enforce a man-made sin.This problem causes great spiritual and psychological harm to people based on deceitful and outrageous God insulting beliefs.

 

[Thomas]

Thanks for the reply.

Well, I don't want to discuss masturbation here. I believe it to be sinful, but let's keep on topic.

I know that sperm is harmless unless there is a venereal disease, which is not my case. But in the book of Leviticus, it seems to be treated as something utterly unclean. The man who had a nocturnal pollution had to wash his clothes, or something like that; well, you get the point.

EDIT: here is the passage.

Lev 15:1-33, (NIV)
1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron,
2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: `When any man has a bodily discharge, the discharge is unclean.
3 Whether it continues flowing from his body or is blocked, it will make him unclean. This is how his discharge will bring about uncleanness:
4 "`Any bed the man with a discharge lies on will be unclean, and anything he sits on will be unclean.
5 Anyone who touches his bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
6 Whoever sits on anything that the man with a discharge sat on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
7 "`Whoever touches the man who has a discharge must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
8 "`If the man with the discharge spits on someone who is clean, that person must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
9 "`Everything the man sits on when riding will be unclean,
10 and whoever touches any of the things that were under him will be unclean till evening; whoever picks up those things must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
11 "`Anyone the man with a discharge touches without rinsing his hands with water must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
12 "`A clay pot that the man touches must be broken, and any wooden article is to be rinsed with water.
13 "`When a man is cleansed from his discharge, he is to count off seven days for his ceremonial cleansing; he must wash his clothes and bathe himself with fresh water, and he will be clean.
14 On the eighth day he must take two doves or two young pigeons and come before the LORD to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and give them to the priest.
15 The priest is to sacrifice them, the one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement before the LORD for the man because of his discharge.
16 "`When a man has an emission of sperm, he must bathe his whole body with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
17 Any clothing or leather that has sperm on it must be washed with water, and it will be unclean till evening.

But this was cerimonial, and we no longer need to keep the Law. There is no spiritual/moral impurity in the substance itself. I made the mistake, based on the passage of Leviticus and some other thoughts of my own, of thinking that there might be. But there isn't.

But you know, if you can perceive that your clothes are visibly spotted with sperm, you may feel dirty, and psychologically you may feel that it is morally wrong to be wearing that clothes.

I know that objectively there is nothing unclean about sperm, wheter hygienically or morally. But I still need to feel that there is not. I feel dirty and guilty when I use something potentially "contaminated" in my mind.

Although none of my stuff is visibly "contaminated" by it. It's more of a rather exaggerated logic, like "I touch, then I touch my pants; later, I touch my pants and then read a book; thus, the book potentially contains some sperm on it's surface and is thus impure."

By following the logic I exposed I get to think in my mind that a whole lot of stuff I own such as books and the computer is contaminated. I sometimes clean it but it takes time and damages stuff like books.

And when I try to read the supposedly contaminated books I get this thoughts of divine punishment which make reading really uncomfortable. So I end up trying to clean the books or buy new ones but you see, it's not like I have that much time or money. I need to get over this thoughts, to completely realize that I am exaggerating in my cleanliness. But I can't just tell myself that I am. I need someone to read this, understand this, and offer some advice. I don't know, I guess I need some advice or something.

So well... insight appreciated.

 

[Thomas]

I do not seem desperate in the previous posts. And in fact I am not. But I must say that it is being quite a struggle, and help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Alternate Carpark]

Romans 8:1 (KJV)
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Acts 11:5-9 (KJV)
I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me: [6] Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. [7] And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat. [8] But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth. [9] But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

1 Cor. 6:12 (KJV)
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1 Cor. 10:23 (KJV)
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.


Thomas, God is not ashamed of you when you sin, He knows we stuff up all the time, so don't condemn yourself because rest assured,
if you are saved and loved by God and bought with a price, He does not condemn you either.
There is a vast difference between willfully sinning and not caring and struggling with sin and falling short and desiring not to.

It's not our actions that are the issue but the attitude of our hearts when we act that God is wanting to address. He has already stated that we will sin,
He has made room for that in the new covenant. it takes time to be transformed into the image of Christ. This is why He doesn't condemn us when we slip up.

I understand your concerns regarding all the fiddly details and it is a good thing that you think this way, because you look deep at the problem and not just push it aside flippantly.
This way of looking at life seems like a burden and a curse but in reality it is a strength. One that God will develop and use to help many people.

It could be that you are transfering your disgust at yourself ,because of the masturbating, and it manifests in your "obsession" with outward cleanliness.
Which by the way is what most of the "laws" and "rituals" were in the old testament.
They were outward symbols ( types) of what happens in the heart.

And I agree with you, it's not about whether masturbation is a sin or not.
It's about you wanting to be obedient to God and how you condemn yourself when you stuff up.

First of all, I highly recommend you read "The Purpose Driven Life"
I'm just about finished reading it and it is amazing. If only I had read it when I was first saved. it would have cleared up a lot of self inflicted grief.

Second, we are not meant to change to become Christlike with our own strength or will power. God says we are unable to.
What God says is we permit/allow Christ to work in us to transform us into His image.

You will find that as you struggle to fight a problem, you will fail, but when you allow God to strengthen you from the inside, your outward actions will change.
This is called growing in Christ, and it's something we do daily as we allow God to change us bit by bit into a pure and clean vessel for His glory and service.

Plus, so cool you are going to a psycholgist, God is the ultimate psychologist and He always enjoys working through people.
You will find that masturbation is trying to fulfill a desire. It doesn't mean this desire is fleshly or lustful.

touching yourself is pleasure, but it is also strongly connected with intimacy.
Find out what desire or need masturbation is trying to fulfil and you will have victory over it, eventually, because old habits take time to break.

And during this process of reaching victory, know that God never turns His back on His kids when they fall. He does the exact opposite !
He runs over and checks to see if we are alright and helps/encourage us to get back up.
God is never ashamed of us when we desire to please Him, no matter how many times we fall.

He doesn't look at our actions, he looks deep within our hearts.

 

[Thomas]

Thanks for the reply, AC.

See, the issue is not masturbation, but my cleanliness; the thought that sperm makes things unclean, the thought that if there just might be some sperm in anything I'm using, then I'm in sin for using it. Anyone got any help to offer?

 

[TheMainException]

I believe that after it is washed, the first evening afterwards, it is clean then. You need not fear any longer. All you have to do is pray and God will forgive you.

 

[Sketcher]

Hey, if you've washed it good enough so that nobody smells it on you and it discredits your witness, you've done a good enough job.

 

[desi]

Thanks for the reply, AC.

See, the issue is not masturbation, but my cleanliness; the thought that sperm makes things unclean, the thought that if there just might be some sperm in anything I'm using, then I'm in sin for using it. Anyone got any help to offer?

sperm makes babies, is slimy, and some women don't care for the taste of it. If you avoid people experiencing such things, without mutual consent, from yours you're all right.

 

[HolySpiritWarrior]

I have a problem with after I sin (not masturbaton just any sin) that I feel really guilty and then when I ask forgiveness I feel like its wrong to wear the clothes that I sinned it and that they are unclean. So I know what you mean...

 

[bliz]

Thomas -

I appreciate your candor and efforts to keep us on topic.

If I understand you correctly, in your head, with your mind, you know that you and all the things you touch are not unclean. But your emotions tell you otherwise, and you have a lot of thoughts about everything around you being unclean and you are unable to shut those thought off.

If I understand you correctly, I think the problem here is not spiritual but mental. You mnind has you fixiating on sperm. You might have just as easily fixiated on the bacteria you get from shaking hands. It was good that you resolved the issue of the law and that we are no longer under the law, but that still has not taken your mind off the sperm. This is in large part why I think this is not a matter of lack of intellect (hardly the case!) or spiritual understanding, but a minor glitch with your brain.

Someone mentioned that it was good that you were seeing a psychologist. Has drug therapy been suggested? I am not a tained professional - at least not in this field - but I've spoken with friends with similiar problems. Please, please don't take this to mean I think you're wacko... not at all! Just someone in need of a little help.

God does not desire you to live as you have been living. You have been a slave to fears of contamination. I pray that you will find the way to be free of these fears.