Clarifying the Debate "basics" on Sabbath and the TEN Commandments

[BobRyan]

No, that's not confusing. I follow what you're saying there.
However, and I really don't want to get sidetracked here, does it actually say not to offer animal sacrifices? or just that they have ended?

It says "He TAKES AWAY the first to ESTABLISH the second" where the "second" is the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ - rather than "well Christ died last year but this year we have goats again".

In any case it is very easy to see why Christian all over planet earth accept that Jesus is the reality - the type - to which all the shadow animal sacrifices pointed and now that Jesus's sacrifice is complete the animal sacrifice system ends.

Heb 10:
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

Very easy to see the point and to see that this has nothing to do with making it ok to take God's name in vain since animal sacrifices have ended.

Even "the priesthood changed" as Heb 7 points out.

==================

so this is the "easy part" -- part 1. regarding sacrifices.

 

[Leaf473]

Part 2: of the very easy part

you said civil laws are vague - I said in fact they are very specific - and are defined as those laws which a nation-state/government can impose penalties. How is that not "every day" use?

It is also easy for all to see that just because there is no theocracy on Earth with federal laws specifying the OT death penalty for blasphemy or gluttony - does not also mean that to "take God's name in vain" is no longer a sin? (Or is this in any way confusing?)

I believe I said:

I'm asking because a term like Civil Laws is kind of vague, imo.

That was before you offered a careful definition, at least on the part of the thread I had read.

...those laws which a nation-state/government can impose penalties.

I think you may have left a word out there. But no big deal, probably just a typo.

It may interest you to know that I was chatting with a user here who often agrees with you, and they said that the Civil Laws were part of God's eternal law. What one person feels is obvious is sometimes seen differently by someone else!

But yes, I'm following your logic above. We can talk more about details of civil laws once we have your complete list of laws that apply today.

 

[Leaf473]

It says "He TAKES AWAY the first to ESTABLISH the second" where the "second" is the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ - rather than "well Christ died last year but this year we have goats again".

In any case it is very easy to see why Christian all over planet earth accept that Jesus is the reality - the type - to which all the shadow animal sacrifices pointed and now that Jesus's sacrifice is complete the animal sacrifice system ends.

Heb 10:
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

Very easy to see the point and to see that this has nothing to do with making it ok to take God's name in vain since animal sacrifices have ended.

Even "the priesthood changed" as Heb 7 points out.

==================

so this is the "easy part" -- part 1. regarding sacrifices.

When Jesus says, "until heaven and earth pass away, not even one letter or pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law", is he including the animal sacrifice laws as part of the law?

If so, then what word do we use to describe what happened to those laws?

If not, then what laws is he including?

That's why I'm asking what your list is.


Again, so far we have:

The Ten Commandments
Don't murder (included in the Ten)
Eat only clean animals
Don't eat meat with blood in it

Did I leave any out? If not, is that the complete list? Is that a complete list of what Jesus was talking about as "the law" above?

 

[BobRyan]

When Jesus says, "until heaven and earth pass away, not even one letter or pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law", is he including the animal sacrifice laws as part of the law?

1. In the examples He gives in Matt 5 there is not one animal sacrifice example.
2. In Heb 10:4-12 and Col 2 we are told that the animal sacrifices are shadows pointing to the work of Christ as "the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world". Predictive laws predict an event in the future. So in that sense "fulfilled" means "prediction fulfilled".
3. But what about "do not take God's name in vain"? is that a predictive law that expires when some event happens or is it like the speed limit "a prescriptive law" telling us what is right? It looks prescriptive... not predictive.


The Ten Commandments
Don't murder (included in the Ten)
Eat only clean animals -- and don't eat a diseased animal even if it is clean
Don't eat meat with blood in it

Did I leave any out?

Lev 19:18 Love your neighbor as yourself
Deut 6:5 Love God with all your heart

Tithe

And all that pertains to morally right living.

So Christians normally look at scripture as the Word of God and the animal sacrifice laws as ended according to Heb 10:4-12, so also the civil laws ended, and the priesthood changed Heb 7 to Christ as our High Priest in heaven Heb 8.

Which is pretty simple because it does not involve crossing out all of scripture and then uncrossing out a text here or there.

 

[BobRyan]

Again, so far we have:

The Ten Commandments
Don't murder (included in the Ten)
Eat only clean animals
Don't eat meat with blood in it

Did I leave any out?

Just for clarity - are you saying you are keeping those and looking to read more of scripture to see if God has other statements about what is right?

Or are you saying you can't even commit to the idea of not "taking God's name in vain" until you first know everything on God's list according to scripture?

 

[Tolworth John]

Especially since the 4th commandment says nothing about meeting to worship ...

The purpose of the sabeth whether it is Saturday, Sunday or any other day is to leave one's daily work and to concentrat on God, by meditation, attending worship service, watching services on line, reading spiritual books etc, anything except working for one's living.
Just as today's society is making that increasingly hard we can learn from earl Christians who would rise before the dawn to meet, to sing hymns to God, listen to the reading of scripture and the exposition of that reading, before going out to there daily work.

 

[Tolworth John]

I don't think I have said any such thing

Your insistence that Saturday is the only day on which we must worship God is just that.
A statement that works are more important than whom one has faith in and is worshipping.

 

[BABerean2]

It says "He TAKES AWAY the first to ESTABLISH the second" where the "second" is the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ -

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The purpose of the sabeth whether it is Saturday, Sunday or any other day is to leave one's daily work and to concentrat on God, by meditation, attending worship service, watching services on line, reading spiritual books etc, anything except working for one's living.
Just as today's society is making that increasingly hard we can learn from earl Christians who would rise before the dawn to meet, to sing hymns to God, listen to the reading of scripture and the exposition of that reading, before going out to there daily work.

Should we not let God define when His Sabbath day is?

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

And define the purpose:

Isaiah 58:13
“If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,
14:Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.
The mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

 

[BobRyan]

The purpose of the sabeth whether it is Saturday, Sunday or any other day is to leave one's daily work and to concentrat on God, by meditation, attending worship service, watching services on line, reading spiritual books etc, anything except working for one's living. .

True - but scripture says "he seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) your God; "
it does not say "God's Sabbath is whatever day you pick" - in Ex 16 those who picked their own day instead of what scripture says in Gen 2:1-3 and Ex 20:8-11 - went one day without food each week for 40 years

 

[BobRyan]

It may interest you to know that I was chatting with a user here who often agrees with you, and they said that the Civil Laws were part of God's eternal law. .

If they think they can kill someone for gluttony and prove their point that God would approve doing such a thing outside of His Theocracy - it will be pretty impressive.

The point of "civil law" is that it is enforced by "civil governments"

 

[BobRyan]

You are saying that a ritual observance of a law is more important than what one believes about Jesus

I don't think I have said any such thing

Your insistence that Saturday is the only day on which we must worship God is just that.

I never say someone cannot have a worship service on Tuesday or Wednesday or ...

The Bible says that doing so - has nothing to do with the Sabbath commandment --

The Bible says "the seventh day IS the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" Ex 20:10... I did not write that commandment, I merely quote it.

 

[BobRyan]

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
.

As Jeremiah first points out in Jer 31:31-34.

That statement does not delete the command "do not take God's name in vain" in Jer 31:31-34 nor does it do it in Heb 8:6-12 where Jeremiah 31 is quote verbatim.

 

[BobRyan]

When Jesus says, "until heaven and earth pass away, not even one letter or pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law", is he including the animal sacrifice laws as part of the law?

Animal sacrifice predictive laws "shadows that point to Christ" - were fulfilled when the "Lamb of God was slain for the sins of the world."

As we already saw in Heb 10:4-12 -- the easy part.

 

[Leaf473]

1. In the examples He gives in Matt 5 there is not one animal sacrifice example.

So it sounds to me like in your view that when Jesus says "not a letter will pass away from the law", that the law that he's talking about there is just parts of the law.

2. In Heb 10:4-12 and Col 2 we are told that the animal sacrifices are shadows pointing to the work of Christ as "the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world". Predictive laws predict an event in the future. So in that sense "fulfilled" means "prediction fulfilled".
3. But what about "do not take God's name in vain"? is that a predictive law that expires when some event happens or is it like the speed limit "a prescriptive law" telling us what is right? It looks prescriptive... not predictive.

It may have expired or be paused in practice if God's name is no longer available here on earth. I go through the posts one by one, so hopefully you talk more about using God's name today in later posts.

So the list so far is:
The Ten Commandments
Don't murder (included in the Ten)
Eat only clean animals -- and don't eat a diseased animal even if it is clean
Don't eat meat with blood in it

Lev 19:18 Love your neighbor as yourself
Deut 6:5 Love God with all your heart

Tithe
do you mean all laws relating to tithing?


And all that pertains to morally right living.
I'm looking forward to interesting details about that catagory.

So Christians normally look at scripture as the Word of God and the animal sacrifice laws as ended according to Heb 10:4-12, so also the civil laws ended, and the priesthood changed Heb 7 to Christ as our High Priest in heaven Heb 8.

Which is pretty simple because it does not involve crossing out all of scripture and then uncrossing out a text here or there.

If things remain simple as we go further into Exodus, then great!

 

[Leaf473]

Just for clarity - are you saying you are keeping those and looking to read more of scripture to see if God has other statements about what is right?

Or are you saying you can't even commit to the idea of not "taking God's name in vain" until you first know everything on God's list according to scripture?

I don't commit to the idea of keeping just parts of the law until I can see for sure which parts to keep.

About God's name, I've talked about that some already. Hopefully you'll talk in the posts that follow about God's name today.

 

[Leaf473]

Animal sacrifice predictive laws "shadows that point to Christ" - were fulfilled when the "Lamb of God was slain for the sins of the world."

As we already saw in Heb 10:4-12 -- the easy part.

The animal sacrifice laws didn't pass away, then. They were fulfilled.

When Jesus says, "I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill" he means
he's not going to destroy the law and the prophets. I think that's based on the context.
And he means he's going to fulfill only parts of the law, then?

 

[Tolworth John]

I don't think I have said any such thing



I never say someone cannot have a worship service on Tuesday or Wednesday or ...

The Bible says that doing so - has nothing to do with the Sabbath commandment --

The Bible says "the seventh day IS the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" Ex 20:10... I did not write that commandment, I merely quote it.

You are being disingenuous, yes you are quoting scripture, but you are also quoting scripture to support your view or the view of your sect.
That there is only one correct day on which to worship God.

Like all sects you are majoring on a minor point, blowing that one issue up into the most important issue.


You confiently ignore what Jesus said to the samaratan women about worship.

 

[BobRyan]

The animal sacrifice laws didn't pass away, then. They were fulfilled.

The prediction they made was fulfilled so the obligation to perform the act passed away.

"He TAKES AWAY the first to establish the second" Heb 10.

When Jesus says, "I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill" he means
he's not going to destroy the law and the prophets.

Agreed and fulfilling animal-sacrifice predictions - takes away the obligation to keep performing them... and does not delete/abolish prescriptive commands like "do not take God's name in vain".

I think that's based on the context.
And he means he's going to fulfill only parts of the law, then?

Only predictive laws can be fulfilled - by doing that which they predict.

So notice that Adam and Eve are given the Sabbath in Eden but are NOT given animal sacrifices because sinless perfect beings are not looking for future redemption from the penalty of sins. They don't have that need - just as sinless angels in heaven do not need animal sacrifice.

 

[BobRyan]

You are saying that a ritual observance of a law is more important than what one believes about Jesus

I don't think I have said any such thing

Your insistence that Saturday is the only day on which we must worship God is just that.

I never say someone cannot have a worship service on Tuesday or Wednesday or ...

The Bible says that doing so - has nothing to do with the Sabbath commandment --

The Bible says "the seventh day IS the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" Ex 20:10... I did not write that commandment, I merely quote it.

You are being disingenuous, yes you are quoting scripture, but you are also quoting scripture to support your view

1. It is not disingenuous to point to the error in your prior statement
2. It is not disingenuous to point out that scripture makes the case I am affirming
3. That is called sola-scriptura testing/validating rather than sola-tradition testing.

or the view of your sect.

ChristianityToday states flat out in its 2015 Jan/Feb article that the denomination I belong to is the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world.

That there is only one correct day on which to worship God.

False. you can worship God every day - that is not a sin.

But there is only one "day of worship" each week according to the Bible where God specifies the 7th day as a day of "Holy Convocation" Lev 23:2-3, a day to refrain from all secular activity Is 58:13 a day of complete rest Ex 20:8-11 in memorial of His Gen 2:1-3 act sanctifying that day and making it a binding obligation for mankind to respect it - Is 56:6-7 as all mankind will do for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth Is 66:23

(most of my sunday keeping friends and neighbors have NO "Day of worship" they have "an hour of worship" once or twice a week.) their Sunday is not "set apart" as the texts I just quoted above set apart the Sabbath as per the Sabbath commandment.

I also join them in having every day for that - an hour of worship on a day not set apart for it. But there is also the matter of keeping the Sabbath commandment which is not about having an hour of worship each day.

Like all sects you are majoring on a minor point,

1. The commandments of God are not minor as Christ points out in Mark 7:6-13
2. The commandments of God are not minor as Paul points out in 1 Cor 7:19 "what MATTERS is keeping the commandments of God"
3. The commandment of God are not minor as John points out in 1 John 5:2-3 "THIS IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments"
4. The commandments of God are not minor as John points out in Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

blowing that one issue up into the most important issue.

This "issue" is "keeping the commandments of God" as Paul points out in 1 Cor 7:19. This is irrefutable.

You confiently ignore what Jesus said to the samaratan women about worship.

another false accusation?

I stated explicitly that God can be worshiped all days of the week.

The point remains.