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Crawfish - I think both of you have a fairly narrow view of what it means to applaud.
Ok - tell me what it means to you. Then tell me what it means to God.
As for those who think applause is a "joyful noise", give me some context....okay? (I prefer firecrackers myself - these drive away the evil spirits...)
There are verses talking about making a joyful noise unto the Lord. Clapping is a noise. So is playing a musical instrument. If there is joy in the heart of the one clapping or playing the instrument, would not God be glorified?
I realize this passage is in Psalms, and it is thus "old testament" but if we truly believe the Bible we can't just cut and paste what we want out of each book. I realize that there are things Jesus specifically brought over from the Old covenant and then those that he did not mention, but when it comes to things that are not mentioned in the New covenant, wouldn't you think it was assumed that it was still a proper style of worship? If not, it would have been addressed. In fact, if Jesus wanted to expound on something, he did, for clarification. But the issue of instruments/clapping was not brought up by Jesus or the apostles, so therefore, it must not have been an issue or else it WOULD have been brought up.
Noise isn't just singing, folks.
I did not say that at all!
Culture might determine modesty.
On a visit to South Africa there was a group of women walking around in long dresses sleeves, collars and umbrellas. They looked weird on a hot summer day. They where part of a English Church established during the Victorian period and then abandoned by the missionaries. They taught that you must dress modestly and put Western Victorian rules of modesty on them which became part of their religious believes and doctrine.
I had a missionary friend to Thailand that when he first went there was shocked and embarrass by the attire of the Christian women. They wore long dresses with slits up each side so you could see their panties on some. At the mens business meeting he finial had the courage to talk about it. He said, We need to talk about our Christian womens attire! All the men were happy he finally wanted to bring it up and were relieved he brought the subject up first. They begin by saying how shocked and embarrassed they were about the way his wife dressed. She had actually worn a dress that you could see some cleavage. Only the most risqué women would ware something that showed any part of her upper body and cleavage was way too much.
True, but then the believer isn't actually under the law, much less some law that says "thou shalt not clap thine hands".
holo said:And singing was "ordained by God"? Where did God "ordain" singing in church? Which songs were ordained by God? Does the bible refer to your songbook?
holo said:It doesn't exist where there is no law.
holo said:If a person drinks wine without offence, and you manage to convince him that it's sinful, then it will be sin for him.
holo said:No, but the gospel isn't "thou shalt not clap" or "thou shalt not expose thine breasts".
holo said:No. So is there a particular reason you don't dance like a madman like king David did? As far as I know, God has never un-ordained that. Same goes for eating locusts and quoting pagan greek philosophers etc.
So what exactly has God asked for, do you think?
holo said:What makes you think that a God who decided to come here as a man, washed the feet of his often ignorant disciples, died slowly and stark naked on a cross, a God who gave Himself for you while you were still a sinner, a God who looks to the heart, a God who uses the love evil people have for their children to illuminate the love He (who IS LOVE) has for His children, a God to whom your rihgteousness is as filthy rags, a God who has already taken your sin as far from you as the east is from the west - should approve or disapprove of your worship based on whether or not you clap your hands?
Christ said himself that he had not come to abolish (to take away) the Law but rather to fulfill it. To abolish and to fulfill are two entirely different things. Abolishing means to take away whatever used to be. According to your argument, we had pretty much not have the OT in our Bibles. Psalms is outside of the Law, the Law meaning the Pentateuch. Jesus fulfilled the Pentateuch and the Prophets, but he said nothing about how to praise him. He did not once mention singing. Nor did he mention instruments or clapping. But neither did he specifically exclude any of these things.God said to sing, that rules out everything but singing. God does not have to say "thou shalt not clap". It's the law of inclusion and exlusion, when God said sing that includes singing and excludes anything else. We're not to go beyond that which is written, 1 Cor 4:6. God did not have to make a long list of things not to do, He simply says what to do and that eliminates everything else. An example that has been used on this topic before. You tell a mechanic to change the oil and oil filter in your car. Three hours later you return to get your car and the mechanic hands you a bill for $3000.00. You look at the itemized bill and see where he changed the oil and oil filter, but he also changed the tires, brakes, rotors, spark plugs, filters, pumps etc, etc. Are you obligated to pay the $3000.00? No, for all you authorized was an oil and oil filter change, everything else the mechanic did was done without your authorization. You did not have to make a long, long list of everything the mechanic was not to do, you just authorized him what you want and that eliminates him doing anything other than what you authorized.
Eph 5:19, Col 3:16. A songbook aids in singing, it adds nothing to what God said which is 'sing'.
But a law does exists, God's law.
The bible condemns drunkeness...social drinking is with offence
The NT authorizes only singing, not clapping and it condemns nakedness/shamefacedness.
I don't dance like David as I don't offer animal sacrifices like David, Psa 66:13-15. Christ took the OT out of the way, [Col 2:14, Heb 8] so David is not an example of NT worship.
You say culture might determine modesty, should it?
I like your story, if people are doing wrong then they should be taught properly. Many won't agree with me on this, but if one is not offering his best to the Lord, he should be taught that he should.
I like your story, if people are doing wrong then they should be taught properly. Many won't agree with me on this, but if one is not offering his best to the Lord, he should be taught that he should.
Christ said himself that he had not come to abolish (to take away) the Law but rather to fulfill it. To abolish and to fulfill are two entirely different things. Abolishing means to take away whatever used to be. According to your argument, we had pretty much not have the OT in our Bibles. Psalms is outside of the Law, the Law meaning the Pentateuch. Jesus fulfilled the Pentateuch and the Prophets, but he said nothing about how to praise him. He did not once mention singing. Nor did he mention instruments or clapping. But neither did he specifically exclude any of these things.
Paul brought up singing as a command. But there was no command against anything accompanying the singing.
God seems to avoid the problems that would result from Him dictating a particular culture dress. Every culture that I know of has an understanding of modesty, if you are immodest you are trying to arouse sexual emotions in others to be fleshly sexually attractive. That seems to be the definition scripture uses for immodest (dress or behavior). Did the fig leaves or the skins cover Eves breasts? Was Jesus sinning by being naked on the cross? Think of all the exceptions God would have to address if He gave us specific attire that we must wear. I have worked as or with the mental hospitals, retirement homes, doctors, emergency workers, rescue workers, and children, so what is modest dress in those situations. God wants us to be modest in our dress, but has not defined specifically the clothing for modest dress.
Do we just hate to think?
Do we love to follow rules and not have freedom?
If we can not determine what is modest for a particular time, place and group of people, how are we going to resolve; how we should Love? Or who is a brother?
Who in the story was doing wrong???
No, of course it doesn't. God didn't ordain you to use the internet either.God said to sing, that rules out everything but singing.
No, there's no such law, and even if there was, we wouldn't be subject to it. God has certainly not given us such a law.God does not have to say "thou shalt not clap". It's the law of inclusion and exlusion, when God said sing that includes singing and excludes anything else.
You're applying that verse in an extremely creative manner which is not at all in line with the rest of what the bible teaches. For example, that God looks to the heart. Or that we are not under the law, but yet you've made up a law, about clapping, of all things!We're not to go beyond that which is written, 1 Cor 4:6.
We're not God's mechanics, we are His children.God did not have to make a long list of things not to do, He simply says what to do and that eliminates everything else. An example that has been used on this topic before. You tell a mechanic to change the oil and oil filter in your car. Three hours later you return to get your car and the mechanic hands you a bill for $3000.00. You look at the itemized bill and see where he changed the oil and oil filter, but he also changed the tires, brakes, rotors, spark plugs, filters, pumps etc, etc. Are you obligated to pay the $3000.00? No, for all you authorized was an oil and oil filter change, everything else the mechanic did was done without your authorization. You did not have to make a long, long list of everything the mechanic was not to do, you just authorized him what you want and that eliminates him doing anything other than what you authorized.
Clapping aids in singing, it adds nothing to what God has said which is 'sing".Eph 5:19, Col 3:16. A songbook aids in singing, it adds nothing to what God said which is 'sing'.
Yes, and we aren't under it. We are dead to it. The law is the power of sin. So since we are free from the law, we are also free from sin. You can still try to live according to the law, of course, if you want. But you will only find that the law is still the power of sin, and that when the commandment comes, sin springs to life, and you end up condemned.But a law does exists, God's law.
It is to some. Others will take offense if you don't drink. For example, it's custom in a lot of southern european countries to serve a little liqour before the food, or wine that goes with it. Refusing it is offensive to the host.The bible condemns drunkeness...social drinking is with offence
The NT doesn't authorize stuff. The NT isn't a law book. It's a testament. It's the gospel accounts, it's the gospel revealed, it's personal letter with teaching from Paul and Peter etc, as well as prophesies. It is not some sort of rule book. If you read it as a rule book, you're reading it completely wrong. And if it was a rule book, it would be the most unclear and least sensible and hard to dechipher rule book ever written.The NT authorizes only singing, not clapping and it condemns nakedness/shamefacedness.
And He won't accept anything else...? Are you for real? Why is it you think God is so weird about stuff like that? Jesus compared God to earthly fathers and said "even if you who are evil know to give your children good things..." - but yet, you apparently believe that God has these weird quirks about singing and clapping. It doesn't figure, and it certainly doesn't resemble any kind of father/child relationship known to man. It looks more like a psychopatic dictators demands from his subjects, like when Chairman Mao ordered peasants to rip the grass out of the ground.Sing.
Neither "Spirit" nor "truth" are synonymous with "song". There is certainly no Spirit or truth in reducing worship to some sort of religious excercise in fear of offending some funny quirky distant God. How on earth do you reconcile your view of God with the God who came as a man and died naked on a cross? How do you reconcile it with the man who let a harlot wash His feet with tears and dry them with her hair?Jn 4:24 God is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth. THis eliminiates me worshipping God as I like but worship Him as He has directed.
I have no argument that people should dress modestly. All I am saying is that in worship to God they should were their best. I think it would be immodest to wear old work clothes to a worship service.
I would say the women who were wearing revealing clothing and the men for being afraid to say anything about it.
I work third shift, and get off at 8:00 AM Sunday morning.I have no argument that people should dress modestly. All I am saying is that in worship to God they should were their best. I think it would be immodest to wear old work clothes to a worship service.
Hah, when I grew up my family's rules were that collars had to go to my chin, and I could only wear ankle length skirts and longs sleeve blouses. If I chose to wear a mid-calf length skirt, I wore boots with it.
Does your wife/mother ever wear clothes that show any of her skin below her neck?
That could be reveling to someone in the fellowship that was from Thailand.
Reveling is a very relative term. What some consider reveling is normal dress to others. Long pants, sleeveless dresses, showing your angles, and showing your face on a woman was/is consider reveling to some.
How far down can the neckline go and how high up can the slit in the dress go before it is sin?
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