Circumcision

pasifika · Apr 25, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Ro 2:25
For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

Yes the law that requires faith in JESUS CHRIST is the new covenant law..and Circumcision is when His Spirit comes and take His home in our hearts.
It’s a bit difficult to understand because Jesus teachings and the apostles are spiritual teachings so only those who have the Spirit will understand them in a different ways.

HARK! · Apr 25, 2020

pasifika said:
Yes the law that requires faith in JESUS CHRIST is the new covenant law

The new covenant law, is the old covenant law, is the law of Moses, is the law of Yahshua, is YHWH's law.

YHWH's law is the character of YHWH. YHWH doesn't change. Neither does his law.

pasifika · Apr 25, 2020

HARK! said:
The new covenant law, is the old covenant law, is the law of Moses, is the law of Yahshua, is YHWH's law.

YHWH's law is the character of YHWH. YHWH doesn't change. Neither does his law.

Righteousness is what both old and new covenants laws is trying to obtained in us fallen men.
The old covenant law requires self (own works) to obtained Righteousness.
New covenant law requires faith to obtain this Righteousness and that is God’s work in fallen men.
Old covenant different (old way ) and new covenant is the only way (new way).

coffee4u · Apr 25, 2020

The main issue with replying to your polls Hark is that you never give the option of a correct answer. If I make a poll and ask you to vote on 1+1= 5 and 2+2 = 9 would you want to vote on that?

The proper answer is that no one should be circumcised in the body and most definitely not modern circumcision which is no way resembles the traditional circumcision carried out by the ancient Israelites.

1 Corinthians 7:19
For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

Galatians 5:2-11
Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

It is only circumcision of the heart that counts, which is a spiritual reality not a physical.
Deuteronomy 10:16
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn.

Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—
And of course, this is including women as well not just men.

HARK! · Apr 26, 2020

coffee4u said:
The main issue with replying to your polls Hark is that you never give the option of a correct answer. If I make a poll and ask you to vote on 1+1= 5 and 2+2 = 9 would you want to vote on that?

If you could reason through what happened at the Council of Jerusalem; it would add up just fine.

1+1 = 2 =/= X

coffee4u said:
The proper answer is that no one should be circumcised in the body

coffee4u said:
1 Corinthians 7:19
For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

So keeping the commandments of YHWH count for nothing?

coffee4u said:
Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

So faith working through love counts for nothing?

What's this?:

(CLV) Ro 2:25
For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

coffee4u said:
Galatians 5:2-11
Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.

Why did Paul circumcise Timothy, right after the Council of Jerusalem? Vengeance?

coffee4u · Apr 26, 2020

HARK! said:
So keeping the commandments of YHWH count for nothing?

So faith working through love counts for nothing?

Not sure if you are being sarcastic or what.

It's saying that neither being circumcised or not circumcised counts, but rather keeping the commands of God counts. The new covenant commandments.

The second verse is saying again that being circumcised or not counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

What's this?:

(CLV) Ro 2:25
For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

You plucked that verse out without continuing. This verse is also saying circumcision of the body is nothing and counts for nothing. The heading in the NKJ even says Circumcision of No Avail

Romans 2:25-29
Circumcision of no avail

25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Why did Paul circumcise Timothy, right after the Council of Jerusalem? Vengeance?

The Bible answers itself in the very same passage.
Acts 16:1-3
16 Then he came to Derbe and Lystra. And behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a certain Jewish woman who believed, but his father was Greek. 2 He was well spoken of by the brethren who were at Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted to have him go on with him. And he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in that region, for they all knew that his father was Greek.
Timothy's father was Greek but his mother was Jewish and everyone knew that and also that he had been brought up as Jewish.
In contrast, Paul never asked Titus to be circumcised. Galatians 2:3 Titus was fully Greek. If Paul had thought that all men including the gentiles needed to be circumcised he would have taken Titus to be as well, but he didn't.

Galatians 5:2
Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
Paul's words, not mine.

Paul James · Apr 26, 2020

Paul says that circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing as well.

"Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man still uncircumcised when called? He should not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commandments is what matters. Each one should remain in the situation he was in when he was called" (1 Corinthians 7:18-20).

HARK! · Apr 26, 2020

coffee4u said:
Not sure if you are being sarcastic or what.

It's saying that neither being circumcised or not circumcised counts, but rather keeping the commands of God counts. The new covenent commandments.

Except that you added the word "rather" in there. It reads they don't mean anything but keeping the commandments.

coffee4u said:
The second verse is syaing again that being circumcision or not counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Here again, you added the word "only" to the scripture. That changes the meaning again; doesn't it?

coffee4u said:
The heading in the NKJ even says Circumcision of No Avail

Romans 2:25-29
Circumcision of no avail

Biased commentary of a man. I can come up with my own. What do I need his for?

coffee4u said:
Timothy's father was Greek but his mother was Jewish and everyone knew that and also that he had been brought up as Jewish.

You obviously are clueless as to how Timothy was raised. If he had been raised Jewish; he would have already been circumcised.

coffee4u said:
In contrast, Paul never asked Titus to be circumcised

How do you know? Where you with each of them for every minute of their lives? It would have been inappropriate for Paul to ask anyone that question. That was settled at the Jerusalem Council.

coffee4u said:
If Paul had thought that all men including the gentiles needed to be circumcised he would have taken Titus to be as well, but he didn't.

Now you proclaim to know what Paul thinks? That's pretty bold! This is a choice to be made when a man of faith is ready. Paul doesn't get to make that choice for another person. I don't understand why you don't understand that. It's like Baptism. The outward act means nothing, unless the change has happened within.

coffee4u said:
Galatians 5:2
Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
Paul's words, not mine.

Paul also says this:

(CLV) Ro 2:25
For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

This is what YHWH says:

Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (FOREVER)

Zao is life · Apr 26, 2020

HARK! said:
It's not a game. I'm very technical. I prefer that things are well defined in my quest for the truth. It makes it easier to identify problems in the process early on.

So you are asserting that it was Paul's decision that Timothy be circumcised; and not Timothy's decision?

That is what I thought you were asserting; but I want to be sure.

I reject that premise; so if that is your premise; the rest of your argument is built on a faulty premise; unless you can prove the premise. You can't. Paul is not going to criticize the Talmud Party for pushing coerced circumcision; then right after Paul leaves the meeting, force Timothy into a situation that resembles rape.

I find the mere suggestion disgusting.

Your premise is devoid of logic. If Paul circumcised Timothy because Timothy wanted to be circumcised then the text would not say Paul circumcised Timothy because of the Jews in those places.

Acts 16:3 "Paul wanted him (Timothy) to go with him, and taking him he circumcised him, because of the Jews who were in those places; for they all knew that his father was a Greek."

Lost4words · Apr 26, 2020

Dkh587 said:
The new covenant is only with Israel - Jeremiah 31:31-33

The new covenant is not with any gentile nation, nor was a covenant with Gentiles prophesied.

Wrong

Lost4words · Apr 26, 2020

Hark, my friend, you dont understand scripture correctly. You interpret it to suit your own narrow beliefs.

Der Alte · Apr 26, 2020

HARK! said:
Genesis 17 (CLV)
...And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (FOREVER)

Does "aionios" mean "forever" or does it mean "age during?"\
I seems that "aionios" means "forever" when it is convenient for you and "age during" when that is convenient for you?
And FYI that covenant was given exclusively to Israel.

Dkh587 · Apr 26, 2020

Lost4words said:
Wrong

Oh? I must have missed where any prophet foretold of a new covenant with Gentiles.

Scott Husted · Apr 26, 2020

HARK! said:
Wrong.

There were no Jews nor Jewish nation in the days of Abraham.

What about Noah and Enoch ...

Lost4words · Apr 26, 2020

Dkh587 said:
Oh? I must have missed where any prophet foretold of a new covenant with Gentiles.

HARK! · Apr 26, 2020

Scott Husted said:
What about Noah and Enoch ...

Good point.

Them either.

Dkh587 · Apr 26, 2020

Lost4words said:

Care to share?

HARK! · Apr 26, 2020

Der Alter said:
And FYI that covenant was given exclusively to Israel.

And the renewed covenant is exclusively for Israel; and Yahshua was commissioned exclusively for Israel.

HARK! · Apr 26, 2020

Lost4words said:
Hark, my friend, you dont understand scripture correctly. You interpret it to suit your own narrow beliefs.

Proof?

Dkh587 · Apr 26, 2020

HARK! said:
And the renewed covenant is exclusively for Israel; and Yahshua was commissioned exclusively for Israel.

Exactly - the new covenant is not with Gentiles, especially not Gentiles who willfully and boastfully exclude themselves from God’s people.

Circumcision

Why must we be circumcised?

To be saved.

To keep the law.

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