Circumcision

HARK! · May 7, 2020

Der Alter said:
This covenant was only between Abraham, his descendants and God.

Are you saying that through faith that believers aren't included in the covenant with Abraham?

Strong in Him · May 8, 2020

HARK! said:
Are you saying that through faith that believers aren't included in the covenant with Abraham?

Are you saying that being included in the covenant with Abraham means that we have to accept everything that Abraham did and be subject to the same laws?

Believers are children of God, born again and given eternal life - made so, by the grace of God, through his Son and his Spirit. We are in Christ, heirs together with Christ, owe everything to Christ, have been set free by Christ and commanded to keep Christ's commandments and words - NOT the Torah, Jewish food laws and so on. They do not save and are not greater that Christ and what he did for us.

HARK! · May 8, 2020

Strong in Him said:
Are you saying that being included in the covenant with Abraham means that we have to accept everything that Abraham did and be subject to the same laws?

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

Strong in Him · May 8, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

That doesn't answer my question.
Abraham was counted as righteous by his faith; we are made righteous by Christ who became sin for us, 2 Corinthians 5:21.

HARK! · May 8, 2020

Strong in Him said:
That doesn't answer my question.
Abraham was counted as righteous by his faith; we are made righteous by Christ who became sin for us, 2 Corinthians 5:21.

Is that the covenant of Abraham?

Strong in Him · May 8, 2020

HARK! said:
Is that the covenant of Abraham?

It's the NEW Covenant, sealed by the blood of Christ, Matthew 26:28.

Thera · May 8, 2020

Jan001 said:
I do feel sorry for Moses' wife!

Lol. It was probably gross for her at the time, but I'm sure Moses made it up to her, and she is now seen as the heroine that saved such a great prophet as Moses. Her act also refutes the claim that circumcision was sexist, or a patriarchal ritual invented by men.

Jan001 said:
RE:
Matthew 5:18
For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

Your interpretation is the "plainest" reading of the text, but Jesus was actually referring to the passing away (destruction) of the temple in Jerusalem.

The Jews' temple in Jerusalem was God's sanctuary on earth and so this temple was the Jews' "heaven and earth".

Okay. Interesting. I think either view comes to the same conclusion - there is no religious reason for circumcision today. But if Heaven and Earth passing away only refer to the temple, then it leaves open that Jesus words may pass away in between 70 AD and the real passing away of Heaven and Earth (although we know they won't). It also doesn't explain so well the covenant of circumcision being everlasting, but then being cancelled - whereas fulfillment through Christ doesn't require cancellation, as Christ still fulfills it, even as we aren't required to practice the law, as our faith is in Him.

Jan001 · May 8, 2020

HARK! said:
What does Egyptian custom have to do with Torah?

To show that Gentiles (including the Egyptians) did not fellowship with Jews in the Jews' synagogues.

The uncircumcised Gentiles were not allowed to go into the Jew's synagogues.

Egyptians and other Gentiles could not possibly have heard about Moses in the Jews' synagogues because the Gentiles were not allowed to enter the synagogues.

Also, in Jesus' day, Jews had no dealings with Samaritans. Jews did not eat with them. Jews did no business with Samaritans. Jews fellow-shipped and did business with Jews only.

John 4:9
The Samaritan woman said to him, “How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samaria?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.

Jews had not ever had dealings with uncircumcised Gentiles and that is why some Christian Jews criticized Peter for eating unkosher meals with uncircumcised Gentiles.

Acts 11:2-3
So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, 3 saying, “Why did you go to uncircumcised men and eat with them?”

Some Christian Jews (aka the circumcision party) demanded that Gentiles become circumcised and follow the Law of Moses in order to enter into fellowship with them.

Acts 15 declares that Gentiles do not have to become circumcised and that Gentiles do not have to follow the Law of Moses in order to receive the Holy Spirit/salvation and that Gentiles do not have to become Jews in order to enter into fellowship with Christian Jews.

That is why the Christian Gentiles were sent the letter stating that they must keep only these few specific Mosaic laws in order to fellowship with Christian Jews:

Acts 15:20-29
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsab′bas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 with the following letter: “The brethren, both the apostles and the elders, to the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cili′cia, greeting. 24 Since we have heard that some persons (circumcision party Christian Jews) from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, 25 it has seemed good to us in assembly to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

Christians do not ever need to become circumcised and they do not ever need to follow the Law of Moses.

HARK! · May 8, 2020

Jan001 said:
To show that Gentiles (including the Egyptians) did not fellowship with Jews in the Jews' synagogues.

The verse says that it would be an abomination to the Egyptian. It's completely irrelevant to your point.

HARK! · May 8, 2020

Jan001 said:
Egyptians and other Gentiles could not possibly have heard about Moses in the Jews' synagogues because the Gentiles were not allowed to enter the synagogues.

Oh my...

(CLV) Ac 18:4
Now he argued in the synagogue on every sabbath and persuaded both Jews and Greeks

Acts 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Jan001 · May 8, 2020

HARK! said:
The verse says that it would be an abomination to the Egyptian. It's completely irrelevant to your point.

POINT: Uncircumcised Gentiles, including the Egyptians, and Jews do not fellowship together so the uncircumcised Gentiles could not have heard Moses proclaimed in the Jews' synagogues on the Sabbath day. Acts 15 is discussing uncircumcised Gentiles.

Jan001 · May 8, 2020

HARK! said:
Oh my...

(CLV) Ac 18:4
Now he argued in the synagogue on every sabbath and persuaded both Jews and Greeks

Acts 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

These Greeks who were in the synagogue were circumcised Gentiles who were in the process of converting to the Jewish faith.

Uncircumcised Greeks were not allowed into the Jews' synagogues and that is why Timothy had to be circumcised in order to be in the company of Paul.

Der Alte · May 8, 2020

Matthew 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
John 16:2-3
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
= = = = = = = =
Jewish Encyclopia-Gentiles
Gentiles May Not Be Taught the Torah.
Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death" (an idiom used to express indignation). "It is like placing an obstacle before the blind" (Sanh. 59a; Ḥag. 13a). …
Resh Lakish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachidæ, inasmuch as "the Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel alone," ... Rabbina, who lived about 150 years after the Christians had changed the day of rest to Sunday, could not quite understand the principle underlying Resh Lakish's law, and, commenting upon it, added: "not even on Mondays [is the Gentile allowed to rest]"; intimating that the mandate given to the Noachidæ that "day and night shall not cease" ((Heb.)Lo yshabti = "have no rest ") should be taken in a literal sense (Gen. viii. 22)—probably to discourage general idleness
"The Torah outlawed the issue of a Gentile as that of a beast" (Miḳ. viii. 4, referring to Ezek. l.c.)
Johanan bar Nappaḥa … the Torah was given as a heritage to Israel, a non-Israelite deserves death if he studies it [Torah](Sanh. 59a).
Gamaliel also expresses himself to the same effect, adding that the Gentiles, by their impure motive, incur the penalty of Gehenna. Eleazar of Modi'im sides with him, saying that "the Gentiles practice benevolence merely to taunt Israel."
Eliezer b. Hyrcanus is …, the mind of every non-Jew is always intent upon idolatry (Giṭ. 45b). The cattle of a heathen is unfit for sacrifices ('Ab. Zarah 23b). Explaining Prov. xiv. 34, he maintains that the non-Jews only practise charity in order to make for themselves a name (B. B. 10b; Pesiḳ. 12b; Gamaliel is credited with the same opinion in B. B. 10b).
Joshua b. Hananiah, … as a rule Gentiles cling to vain things and are rejected (Prov. xxviii. 19; Gen. R. lxxxii.).
Eleazar of Modi'im, in reference to Micah iv. 5, explains that Israel, though guilty of the same sins as the Gentiles, will not enter hell, while the Gentiles will (Cant. R. ii. 1). .. On the whole, he is very bitter in his condemnations of the heathen. "They profit by their deeds of love and benevolence to slander Israel" (referring to Jer. xl. 3;B. B. 10a).
Among Akiba's disciples Tarphon is noted for his antipathy to the Judæo-Christians, whose books he would burn without regard for the name of God occurring therein, preferring the temple of idolaters to them (Shab. 116a).
Simon ben Yoḥai is preeminently the anti-Gentile teacher. In a collection of three sayings of his, beginning with the keyword (Heb.) Shob (Yer. Ḳid. 66c; Massek. Soferim xv. 10; Mek., Beshal-laḥ, 27a; Tan., Wayera, ed. Buber, 20), is found the expression, often quoted by anti-Semites, "Ṭob shebe-goyyim harog" (="The best among the Gentiles deserves to be killed").
On the basis of Hab. iii. 6, Simon b. Yohai argued that, of all the nations, Israel alone was worthy to receive the Law (Lev. R. xiii.). The Gentiles, according to him, would not observe the seven laws given to the Noachidae (Tosef., Soṭah, viii. 7; Soṭah 35b), though the Law was written on the altar (Deut. xxvi. 8) in the seventy languages. Hence, while Israel is like the patient ass, the Gentiles resemble the easy-going, selfish dog (Lev. R. xiii.; Sifre, Deut., Wezot ha-Berakah, 343).
Judah ben 'Illai recommends the daily recital of the benediction. "Blessed be Thou . . . who hast not made me a goi[gentile]" (Tosef., Ber. vii. 18: Men. 43b, sometimes ascribed to Meir; see Weiss, "Dor," ii. 137). Judah is confident that the heathen (Gentiles) will ultimately come to shame (Isa. lxvi. 5; B. M. 33b).The Gentiles took copies of the Torah, and yet did not accept it (Soṭah 35b).
Eliezer, the son of Jose the Galilean, calls the Gentiles poor "goyyim dawim," because they would not accept the Torah (Mek., Yitro. 62a), referring to Hab. iii. 6 and Ps. cxlvii. 20
Josiah holds that every idolatrous heathen is an enemy of Israel (Mek., Mishpaṭim, 99a).
Jonathan insists that eclipses are of bad augury for Gentiles only, according to Jer. x. 2 (Mek., Bo, 19b).
Simon ben Jose likens Israel to a stone, and the Gentiles to a potsherd (Isa. xxx. 14), applying the proverb: "If the stone falls on the pot, wo to the pot; if the pot falls on the stone, wo to the pot." This he offered as a consolation to persecuted Israel (Esther R. iii. 6).
Hezekiah b. Hiyya deduces from II Kings xx. 18 that he who shows hospitality to a heathen brings the penalty of exile upon his own children (Sanh. 104a).
Johanan bar Nappaḥa … lays stress on the fact that God offered the Law to all nations, who refused to accept it ('Ab. Zarah 2b); therefore while the virus of lust that the serpent injected into Eve was neutralized in Israel, the "nations of the world" still have it in their blood (Shab. 145b; Yeb. 103b; 'Ab. Zarah 22b)…. the Torah was given as a heritage to Israel, a non-Israelite deserves death if he studies it (Sanh. 59a).
Assi is the author of the injunction not to instruct the Gentile in the Torah (Ḥag. 13a).
Tanhuma …likens the nations to wolves and Israel to a lamb (Pesiḳ. R. ix. [ed. Friedmann, p.32a]).
The seven nations in the Holy Land were to be exterminated for fear they might teach the Israelite conquerors idolatry and immoral practises (Deut. vii. 1-6, xviii. 9-14, xx. 16-18);
The Gentiles were so strongly suspected of unnatural crimes that it was necessary to prohibit the stabling of a cow in their stalls ('Ab. Zarah ii. 1).
GENTILE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Jan001 · May 8, 2020

HARK! said:
James qualified his orders for the gentiles with that statement. Who do you suppose it was directed toward, if not the gentiles?

RE: Moses read......

"Moses" pertains to all the accepted OT writings, including the prophets such as Amos which were read in the synagogues every Sabbath day. A prophecy in Amos concerning the Gentiles was specifically mentioned in Acts 15.

Acts 15 was mainly directed toward the "circumcision party" Christian Jews because they had demanded that all Gentile males be circumcised and follow the Law of Moses in order to be admitted into the Christian Jews' fellowship. These "circumcision party" Christian Jews were troubling the Gentiles with their demands that the Gentiles become Jews before they could be allowed to join the Christian Jews' fellowship. These "circumcision party" Christian Jews believed that only practicing Jews could receive salvation.

However, according to the prophet Amos, there would come a time when the Lord would save all the Gentiles who are called by His name (Christian).

It became known to Peter that these Gentiles did not have to become Jews in order to be filled with the Holy Spirit of Grace (saved). Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:14-18, Romans 10:13

Amos 9:11-12
11 On that day I will raise up
the booth of David that is fallen,
and repair its breaches,
and raise up its ruins,
and rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 in order that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations (Gentiles) who are called by my name,
says the Lord who does this.

The Council of Jerusalem decreed that the Gentiles did not have to become Jews in order to join the Christian Jews in fellowship. The Council then dictated a letter to be sent to the Gentile believers to tell them what they needed to do in order to be in fellowship with Christian Jews.

Acts 15-28-29
For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Gentiles who had not converted to Judaism were not ever under the circumcision covenant and they were not ever under the Law of Moses and they were not ever commanded to keep the Sabbath of the Jews, and they never will be.

Jan001 · May 8, 2020

Thera said:
Lol. It was probably gross for her at the time, but I'm sure Moses made it up to her, and she is now seen as the heroine that saved such a great prophet as Moses. Her act also refutes the claim that circumcision was sexist, or a patriarchal ritual invented by men.

I checked Exodus 4:34-35 and Zipporah actually circumcised Moses' son before the Law of Moses became the law for the Israelites during their sojourn in the desert. Perhaps there are restrictions concerning who may perform circumcisions in the Law of Moses? I have not researched this.

Okay. Interesting. I think either view comes to the same conclusion - there is no religious reason for circumcision today. But if Heaven and Earth passing away only refer to the temple, then it leaves open that Jesus words may pass away in between 70 AD and the real passing away of Heaven and Earth (although we know they won't). It also doesn't explain so well the covenant of circumcision being everlasting, but then being cancelled - whereas fulfillment through Christ doesn't require cancellation, as Christ still fulfills it, even as we aren't required to practice the law, as our faith is in Him.

I see what you mean about circumcision, but I think that circumcision for all male Jews was the actual entry point into the Law of Moses and into the Israelite covenant with God. Therefore, circumcision for religious reasons for Christians is forbidden today because circumcision is not the entry point into Christianity. Baptism is the usual entry point into Christianity. 1 Corinthians 12:13, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16

Circumcision is absolutely necessary to be in covenant with God under the first/old covenant.

Genesis 17:14
Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Jesus states His words will not pass away, but heaven and earth (the temple) will pass away within that generation. The temple did pass away in 70 A.D. within that generation, but Jesus' words are still here right now, and it's about 2000 years ago that He first spoke them.

Matthew 24:34-35
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth (temple) will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

HARK! · May 8, 2020

Jan001 said:
POINT: Uncircumcised Gentiles, including the Egyptians, and Jews do not fellowship together so the uncircumcised Gentiles could not have heard Moses proclaimed in the Jews' synagogues on the Sabbath day. Acts 15 is discussing uncircumcised Gentiles.

FAIL: Fellowship and hearing Moses read are two different things; and they have nothing to do with some snobby Egyptian 800 years before.

HARK! · May 8, 2020

Jan001 said:
These Greeks who were in the synagogue were circumcised Gentiles who were in the process of converting to the Jewish faith.

Uncircumcised Greeks were not allowed into the Jews' synagogues and that is why Timothy had to be circumcised in order to be in the company of Paul.

Let's see your proof that makes James out to be talking nonsense. I won't hold my breath for this one.

HARK! · May 8, 2020

Jan001 said:
Acts 15 was mainly directed toward the "circumcision party" Christian Jews because they had demanded that all Gentile males be circumcised and follow the Law of Moses

I stopped reading here; because I didn't see the point in continuing to hear your argument based on a faulty premise.

The circumcision party, who didn't keep the Torah, was arguing that you must be circumcised to be saved. They lost. The Believers, who keep the Torah, along with the Apostles, were arguing that you must be circumcised keep the law. They won.

I read the story very carefully; and the Kadosh scripture debunks the false doctrine. That's why I started this thread.

Der Alte · May 8, 2020

HARK! said:
...The circumcision party, who didn't keep the Torah, was arguing that you must be circumcised to be saved. They lost. The Believers, who keep the Torah, along with the Apostles, were arguing that you must be circumcised keep the law. They won.
I read the story very carefully; and the Kadosh scripture debunks the false doctrine. That's why I started this thread.

Total nonsense. Talk about false premises. There were two parties, that is correct, one party was Christian pharisees from Judea who came to Antioch and demanded that gentiles be circumcised AND keep the law. Two separate requirements.
The other side was Paul and his companions who said, twice, they gave no such command to be circumcised AND keep the law.
And Paul and his companions wrote four, and only four, requirements, that gentiles Christians "abstain from pollution of idols, from fornication, from things strangled and blood."
This list of four requirements was repeated three times, there was never any other requirements, stated or implied, for gentile Christians. No command to be circumcised. No command to keep the law. NO command to attend synagogues for any purpose.

HARK! · May 8, 2020

Der Alte said:
Christian pharisees from Judea who came to Antioch and demanded that gentiles be circumcised AND keep the law.

Not quite; but these are the guys who won.

Der Alte said:
"abstain from pollution of idols, from fornication, from things strangled and blood."

Which James pulled right from the TORAH, and qualified it with the TORAH being read every SABBATH.

Can't get past the FACTS.

Circumcision

Why must we be circumcised?

To be saved.

To keep the law.

שמע

Great is thy faithfulness

שמע

Great is thy faithfulness

שמע

Great is thy faithfulness

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Striving to win the prize...

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Striving to win the prize...

Striving to win the prize...

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Striving to win the prize...

Striving to win the prize...

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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