Circumcision

[possibletarian]

I have sat through newborn circumcisions and children getting a cavity filled. The dental work is more traumatic. And I am not sure what your credentials are to say the medical reasons aren't convincing enough. They are convincing enough in the US that the main pediatric association is for circumcisions. I find that reasonably convincing.

Again, don't circumcised your kids. And don't make decisions for other people based on your own bias. Enough men who are circumcised are willing to have their son's circumcised (actually, the men are more for it than the moms)...I don't think it is fair to assume that they don't know what they are talking about and they certainly don't feel maimed or that they are missing any significant part of their body.

Again comparing mutilating a child's penis and having a cavity done is silly, one is clearly a good benefit to ease or avoid pain, the other unnecessary and can be chosen by the adult anytime for either religious or medical reasons if they choose. No one is claiming parents don't know what they are doing, in fact the opposite, to mutilate your child for your own beliefs is wrong, plain and simple.

As for the 'Main Paediatric' association is for it, which one is that is it the one that perhaps it's members benefit from doing such procedures ?

Myths about Circumcision You Likely Believe

Infant Responses to Circumcision

 

[blackribbon]

Again comparing mutilating a child's penis and having a cavity done is silly, one is clearly a good benefit to ease or avoid pain, the other unnecessary and can be chosen by the adult anytime for either religious or medical reasons if they choose. No one is claiming parents don't know what they are doing, in fact the opposite, to mutilate your child for your own beliefs is wrong, plain and simple.

As for the 'Main Paediatric' association is for it, which one is that is it the one that perhaps it's members benefit from doing such procedures ?

Myths about Circumcision You Likely Believe

Infant Responses to CircumcisionOt

 

[Owen GB5]

I have sat through newborn circumcisions and children getting a cavity filled. The dental work is more traumatic. And I am not sure what your credentials are to say the medical reasons aren't convincing enough. They are convincing enough in the US that the main pediatric association is for circumcisions. I find that reasonably convincing.

Again, don't circumcised your kids. And don't make decisions for other people based on your own bias. Enough men who are circumcised are willing to have their son's circumcised (actually, the men are more for it than the moms)...I don't think it is fair to assume that they don't know what they are talking about and they certainly don't feel maimed or that they are missing any significant part of their body.

I don't asume that it isn't important to you. My point was that it is not important to most people who aren't Americans or Muslims.

 

[blackribbon]

I don't asume that it isn't important to you. My point was that it is not important to most people who aren't Americans or Muslims.

Actually, appears to only be important to those who want to make the decision for others ... those who want to take away the choice of parents in the US to choice to circumcise or not.

 

[Owen GB5]

Actually, appears to only be important to those who want to make the decision for others ... those who want to take away the choice of parents in the US to choice to circumcise or not.

Some would say that parents who circumcise are making the decision for another.

 

[blackribbon]

Some would that parents who circumcise are making the decision for another.

Parents have always made the decisions for their children since the start of mankind...and like this one, many have permanent consequences. Not all permanent decisions are bad ones.

I assume you made decisions for your children too.

 

[Owen GB5]

Parents have always made the decisions for their children since the start of mankind...and like this one, many have permanent consequences. Not all permanent decisions are bad ones.

I assume you made decisions for your children too.

True.
We decided that they would have the choice.

 

[blackribbon]

True.
We decided that they would have the choice.

Did you also give them the choice of whether or not to go to church and what church it was? Where they lived? If they went to school or not? These choices affect a person more than a newborn circumcision... and they can't be reversed either. (that lack of foreskin does not stop the pleasurable act of marriage in circumcised men...or maim them in any way).

But honestly, I don't think that a 10 minute procedure as newborn that heals with in a few days .... and an hour long surgery (complete with anesthesia) at thousands of dollars and a 3 week recovery is a comparable choice...

But again, you were allowed to make the decision to not make that decision for your sons.

I am done with this discussion because I believe it is the right of a parent to choice and not something anyone else gets a vote in. No different than bottle or breast milk. And which church they attend or if they get any religious teaching.

 

[Owen GB5]

Did you also give them the choice of whether or not to go to church and what church it was? Where they lived? If they went to school or not? These choices affect a person more than a newborn circumcision... and they can't be reversed either. (that lack of foreskin does not stop the pleasurable act of marriage in circumcised men...or maim them in any way).

But honestly, I don't think that a 10 minute procedure as newborn that heals with in a few days .... and an hour long surgery (complete with anesthesia) at thousands of dollars and a 3 week recovery is a comparable choice...

But again, you were allowed to make the decision to not make that decision for your sons.

I am done with this discussion because I believe it is the right of a parent to choice and not something anyone else gets a vote in. No different than bottle or breast milk. And which church they attend or if they get any religious teaching.

I do understand your position. This topic is one that many people feel strongly about but they are mostly looking at different evidence as they seek to know the Christian answer to the question of whether we should circumcise our children or not. And we all have a cultural bias that makes it hard for any of us to be completely objective.

 

[Joshua_5]

I wonder where the Christians even got the idea of circumcision? Because God certainly has never said it was a good thing .... or maybe your Christian Bible doesn't doesn't have Genesis 17 ... or maybe God is evil and just likes maiming men?)

I agree circumcision not a religious choice for most parents, but I also think that because God used it as a sign in the bible, it makes it easier for us to know it doesn't result in any disability or serious problems. (Your posts from a medical perspective were informative and unbiased, and demonstrate to anyone fair-minded that it is no big deal - unfortunately, I don't think there were too many fair-minded people in this discussion).

For Christians to insist that circumcision is disabling or causes problems, there is not only the problem of why God would impose this on all Israelite men for thousands of years, but also why we still use this as a metaphor (in the New Testament also) for something good that is done to our hearts when we believe in Jesus.

While parents are entitled to choose for their children, for some to insist that others are wrong for choosing to circumcise must also result in problems for them when reading the bible (e.g. was God wrong to command circumcision, was Abraham wrong for obeying, was Jesus wrong when he compared circumcision to healing the whole man on the Sabbath?)

 

[Dave-W]

Galatians 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

 

[Owen GB5]

I agree circumcision not a religious choice for most parents, but I also think that because God used it as a sign in the bible, it makes it easier for us to know it doesn't result in any disability or serious problems. (Your posts from a medical perspective were informative and unbiased, and demonstrate to anyone fair-minded that it is no big deal - unfortunately, I don't think there were too many fair-minded people in this discussion).

For Christians to insist that circumcision is disabling or causes problems, there is not only the problem of why God would impose this on all Israelite men for thousands of years, but also why we still use this as a metaphor (in the New Testament also) for something good that is done to our hearts when we believe in Jesus.

While parents are entitled to choose for their children, for some to insist that others are wrong for choosing to circumcise must also result in problems for them when reading the bible (e.g. was God wrong to command circumcision, was Abraham wrong for obeying, was Jesus wrong when he compared circumcision to healing the whole man on the Sabbath?)

 

[Owen GB5]

The radical procedure of cutting off the whole foreskin that is referred to as 'circumcision' nowadays is not the same as the 'circumcision in the flesh of his foreskin' that was given as a symbolic sign to Abraham.
This current practice of cutting off the whole prepuce comes after the time of Our Lord Jesus. It was introduced by Judaism to fulfil different purposes. Rabbi Moses Maimonides, 1135 A.D., said 'The fact that circumcision weakens the faculty of sexual excitement and sometimes perhaps diminishes the pleasure is indubitable.'
This is why Kellogg introduced this practice to the U.S.A. (his specific concern was masturbation). This surgery isn't what God commanded Abraham to do and is hard to even imagine replicating current surgical practice with a piece of flint!

 

[Dave-W]

This is why Kellogg introduced this practice to the U.S.A. (his specific concern was masturbation).

It is also why he invented "corn flakes," to diminish the sex drive.

 

[Owen GB5]

It is also why he invented "corn flakes," to diminish the sex drive.

And it seems to be working for me but I am okay with that. (I don't usually buy the iconic U.S. brand because of the association mentioned above!)

 

[Dave-W]

(I don't usually buy the iconic U.S. brand because of the association mentioned above!)

Post started making corn flakes for the same reason. And Dr. Sylvester Graham made a whole grain cracker for the same purpose.

Good Seventh Day Adventists all.

BTW - Dr. Kellogg was FURIOUS with his brother who started mass marketing his invention.

 

[Joshua_5]

The radical procedure of cutting off the whole foreskin that is referred to as 'circumcision' nowadays is not the same as the 'circumcision in the flesh of his foreskin' that was given as a symbolic sign to Abraham.
This current practice of cutting off the whole prepuce comes after the time of Our Lord Jesus. It was introduced by Judaism to fulfil different purposes. Rabbi Moses Maimonides, 1135, said 'The fact that circumcision weakens the faculty of sexual excitement and sometimes perhaps diminishes the pleasure is indubitable.'
This is why Kellogg introduced this practice to the U.S.A. (his specific concern was masturbation). This surgery isn't what God commanded Abraham to do and is hard to even imagine replicating current surgical practice with a piece of flint!

Is there any proof of this? In the bible, it just talks about circumcising the foreskin. Has there been a mistranslation? Did the definition of what a foreskin is change?

If not, I'm not sure on what basis you can make the argument the circumcision in the bible is different to that today.

If you question those who practice Judaism, they deny that it is different today than it was for Abraham.

 

[Joshua_5]

The comparison is beyond silly, you really think that asking a child to brush their teeth, is the same as cutting a part of one of the most important part of the body off, the medical reasons really are unconvincing.

The skin is an important organ, I agree. But circumcision only trims a little part of it, and there are a number of health benefits. Females are born without any excess skin, and do just fine.

Even if the health benefits are not convincing, how is it different from lasering off a birth-mark, or removing the nail quick to prevent it catching and worsening a wound?

Why does it have almost universal support from men and women, doctors, paediatricians, nurses, health organisations etc. if it is so harmful?

 

[Ygrene Imref]

I no longer support circumcision of infants. I think you should let the child grow and decide for their self.

The foreskin serves many good purposes and what problems it can bring can easily be solved by good hygiene.

The circumcision, like every other law, was a failsafe procedure to allow humans to be at optimal condition under any situation - even, and especially if you are not in a Babylonian/"Advanced" world. Sure, the superficial reasoning for circumcision may be treated with "good higene," but that is completely subjective. For example, "good higene" with today's hindsight would ridicule the Europeans for the way the Black Plague was handled - with the streets full of excrement, lack of bathing and even refusal to break and drain the pus out of the sores (even Job, an alleged cave dweller, knew to crack and break the boils the enemy sent him!)

Besides this, the highest coagulation occurs around 8-10 days after a birth, so you would want to circumcise someone then (i.e. optimal time.) Getting circumcised as an adult is painful, and possibly life-threatening. It was a well known dark joke the Hebrews would play on hopeful adult converts - to tell them to get circumcised in order to be an Hebrew knowing an adult male could get an infection, lose their member, or even die. This still happens in modernity.

Considering that a major reason why circumcision is so popular in the USA is because people wanted to reduce masturbation in children that's another reason I don't like circumcision.

What do you guys think?

Is it still relevant to Christian living?

Well, it is ironic that if that is the case, Christians themselves have confused the PURPOSE of circumcision.

Spiritually, it is *the* mark of God's people. Just like the joke in the States is that European men are "all" uncircumcised, people in antiquity knew that "Hebrews were the only ones who got circumcised." There may have even been the same arguments made.

On a physical standard, as said before, it is a failsafe just like the food laws that is to keep men clean under any circumstance on the planet. It is categorically healthy for the Hebrew.


Now, having said ALL of that, I do think if you are uncertain of your genetic Hebrew lineage (i.e. you have to be sure there is a possibility you are an Hebrew,) then I would wait. I do not believe circumcision is a qualifier for salvation, but I also believe that blindly practicing circumcision because you are told to do so is one of the best ways to be on the wrong side of anything. If you are the parent, and you don't know if you are an Hebrew, I would wait for your child to grow up and decide. He will thank you for it.

I won't say circumcision is "out," it is an important part of the contract made between Abraham, his seed, and God. Forever. Christ didn't negate the practice; He enlightened us to the real reason why we practice circumcision in the first place. Everything done physically is a projection of the preparation a bride would do before marrying the groom.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

The radical procedure of cutting off the whole foreskin that is referred to as 'circumcision' nowadays is not the same as the 'circumcision in the flesh of his foreskin' that was given as a symbolic sign to Abraham.
This current practice of cutting off the whole prepuce comes after the time of Our Lord Jesus. It was introduced by Judaism to fulfil different purposes. Rabbi Moses Maimonides, 1135, said 'The fact that circumcision weakens the faculty of sexual excitement and sometimes perhaps diminishes the pleasure is indubitable.'
This is why Kellogg introduced this practice to the U.S.A. (his specific concern was masturbation). This surgery isn't what God commanded Abraham to do and is hard to even imagine replicating current surgical practice with a piece of flint!

I danced ALL around saying this, but this is a lot more concise.