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Circumcision

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William1

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Strange as it may seem, Abraham was circumcised at the age of 100 years old and Moses at the age of 80. It has occurred to me that if these men of renown entered this covenant as adults, and if we supposedly would consider ourselves as having the faith of these giants, that just maybe we need to exercise this ritual as well, if we want to be saved.
William
 

msjones21

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Circumcision is a rite of passage for the Jews, not a requirement for salvation. The Bible says all we need in order to be saved is to have faith and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. When we start adding pre-requisites to that (i.e., baptism by submersion, doing good works, circumcision, etc.) then we are guilty of legalism.

The Bible states how boys of the Jewish faith should be circumcised, but there is no Bilical evidence to support your theory. Just because you can draw parallels between Abraham and Moses being circumcised in their adult years and the fact that they were among the few in the Old Testament who received God's anointing does not mean it's a requirement for salvation..
 
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William1

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Hi msjones

There are many things required of God’s people, whatever name you call them.

You touch on legalism and suggest that making thinks such as circumcision, baptism, and doing good, a part of the doctrine, that this in fact constitutes legalism. But I ask you, which one is guilty of legalism, the one who walks within the Commands, or the one who makes excuses to walk out of the Commands? You see msjones, if one makes exceptions to the Commands or constrictions to the Commands, in either case, one is a legalist. In either case we become our own god. We make the rules.

As for Jews having a different set of rules than God’s people, if that is the case, I guess you might have the makings of a divided kingdom, don’t you think? And a divided kingdom will _ _ _ _! Besides, God’s people are referred to as Israelites, last I read.

Exodus 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you. (KJV)

Galatians 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (KJV)
Colossians 3:11
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. (KJV)

William
 
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Jason1646

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William1 said:
just maybe we need to exercise this ritual as well, if we want to be saved.
William
I don't think so.

2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh (Philippians 3:2 - 3).

Such a concept would also completely undermine Paul's argument in Romans 4, where Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness while yet uncircumcised, which is the pattern for all of us who are sons of Abraham by imitating his faith, not his circumcision (Romans 4:11, Galatians 3:7).

Paul also says in Galatians 5:12, that he could wish that those who would trouble Christians about needing to be circumcised would just go all the way with it and cut the whole thing off (i.e., make eunuchs of themselves)! :eek: Psst, that goes for you too. ;)

Sincerely in Christ,

~Jason
 
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adam332

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The physical act of circumcision was a sign of a spiritual covenant that had already taken place in the believers heart. The OT speaks of circumcision of the heart as being what is truly important. the NT re-iterates this...this time more strongly emphasizing the spiritual connection in the heart to that of the flesh. This is quite understandable since the religious powers of the time put so much emphasis on the flesh, lineage, etc...as proof of their salvation. Salvation comes from the Son and not whether one had their tallywhacker cut nor who their Daddy was. If physical circumcision was really of any serious importance for salvation then women would have had some major issues with the fact that they couldn't be part of the covenant.

I find it very similar to baptism...surely we know that the physical act is nothing but a sign of the spiritual cleansing that should have already taken place. My marriage is not any less binding because of the piece of paper we have received...it only symbolizes the spiritual covenant that we had already placed in our hearts. Certainly the thief on the cross was not required the fulfill the physical act of Baptism. i can be Baptized physically a hundred times all of which means nothing if I don't let my heart be cleansed and accept the inward covenant with Him.
 
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William1

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Dear Jason

If Paul says what you say he said, “that those who embrace foreskin circumcision should go the distance and cut off the entire male’s anatomy”, then Paul was not an Apostle, but an apostate. In fact, that can be said about any of God’s Commands, if someone speaks against them, then obviously they are an enemy of the Most High.

In Pursuit of Clemency;
William
 
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BeanMak

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1 Corinthians18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He R258 is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
 
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William1

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ummm, "what matters is the keeping of the commandments", excuse me?? I thought that circumcision was a commandment. If that passage is addressing foreskin circumcision, then there is a huge contradiction to Paul's message. Therefore, that passage has absolutely nothing to do with foreskins, don't you think?

William
 
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BeanMak

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Foreskin circumcision was a commandment to the descendants of Abraham. If you aren't a descendant of Abraham, then you are not required to be circumcised. This was one of the decisions of the first Councils that met to decide matters for the Body of Christ. Read Acts 15 verses 1- 31. The New testament commandments are Love God with all your heart, soul and mind; and to love your neighbor as yourself. Gentile believers were instructed: For it R918 seemed good to the R919 Holy Spirit and to us R920 to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things R921 sacrificed to idols and from blood R921 and from things R921 strangled and from fornication; R921 if F368 you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
 
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Galations 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ hath
made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of
bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say to you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ
will profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that
he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect to you, whoever of you are
justified by the law; ye have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness
by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing,
nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
 
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BeanMak

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William, I don't "suppose" that Acts 15 has to do with foreskin circumcision- that is what it IS talking about. There were Jews that were telling the Gentile converts that they had to follow the Laws of Moses, and had to be circumcised-cut on their foreskins- in order to be saved. The Apostles decided, with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that putting the Gentiles under the yoke of Mosaic law was NOT to be done. We are saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ. If you want circumcision for you and your household, then go for it! If you feel that this is what God leads you to do, great! Do NOT make it a burden for your fellow Christian, however.
 
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William1

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Hi BeanMak

First of all BeanMak, I want to thank you for writing and letting me know where I have failed to communicate adequately. Let me try again, if you read the Greek, you will not find the word for foreskin circumcision mentioned anywhere in Paul’s letters.

When you read ‘circumcision’, it has nothing to do with foreskin rituals. What I mean to say is that although this word appears in the NT in English, it does not mean circumcision.

What is the technicality the council in Acts 15 ruled on? BeanMak, I want you to try and put on my set of glasses for a while. Suppose nothing changed with the Ways of God with the Coming of the Messiah. Yes, of course I fully embrace all of His teachings, and He is my Saviour, but suppose the Messiah came to straighten out the crocked ways of the religious leaders. Suppose that the Ways of Old, still apply. Suppose that in order to be saved, you need to walk like Abraham, Moshe, David, etc.

Ok, with those glasses on, and knowing that we have three types of circumcision in the OT
1) Abraham, all males get ear marked. (Just a tid bit here, the removal of the foreskin was never the intent, but rather just an ever so small a clipping so as to remove a tiny piece of skin and draw some blood, my wife did me/ my three sons/ and several other men over the years. It was a cut in the foreskin, not the removal.)

2) David, Circumcision of the Heart. Mind and actions as one, both teaming to praise the Almighty One.

3) Moshe, come ye out from among the people. This is where we do not do as our neighbors do and even though we see evil celebrations approaching us, we do not get roped into their ways.

Now answer this one question BeanMak, which of the three circumcisions are being addressed in Acts 15 :1 and Acts 15:5? 1 Abraham, 2 David or 3 Moshe? When you find the answer, ask yourself, how do the findings of the Council, the four requirements, fit this circumcision. Hmm, I guess that is two questions.

You see, the entire Christian religion has used this passage as their trump card, heralding it as the defense for a new way and especially in the area of foreskin circumcision. But as you will see as this thread goes on, this is a false teaching.

William
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

I've read the posts on this thread (which was moved from the "Interdenominational Dialogue" thread; I hope it's OK for me to post here) & I find them very interesting. I include the following excerpts as information on the traditional (i.e. orthodox) Jewish point-of-view:

Brit Milah: Circumcision

Of all of the commandments in Judaism, the brit milah (literally, Covenant of Circumcision) is probably the one most universally observed. It is commonly referred to as a bris (covenant, using the Ashkenazic pronunciation). Even the most secular of Jews, who observe no other part of Judaism, almost always observe these laws. Of course, until quite recently, the majority of males in the United States were routinely circumcised, so this doesn't seem very surprising. But keep in mind that there is more to the ritual of the brit milah than merely the process of physically removing the foreskin, and many otherwise non-observant Jews observe the entire ritual.

The commandment to circumcise is given at Gen. 17:10-14 and Lev. 12:3. The covenant was originally made with Abraham. It is the first commandment specific to the Jews.

Circumcision is performed only on males. Although some cultures have a practice of removing all or part of the woman's [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], often erroneously referred to as "female circumcision," that ritual has never been a part of Judaism.

Like so many Jewish commandments, the brit milah is commonly perceived to be a hygienic measure; however the biblical text states the reason for this commandment quite clearly: circumcision is an outward physical sign of the eternal covenant between God and the Jewish people. It is also a sign that the Jewish people will be perpetuated through the circumcised man. The health benefits of this practice are merely incidental. It is worth noting, however, that circumcised males have a lower risk of certain cancers, and the sexual partners of circumcised males also have a lower risk of certain cancers.

The commandment is binding upon both the father of the child and the child himself. If a father does not have his son circumcised, the son is obligated to have himself circumcised as soon as he becomes an adult. A person who is uncircumcised suffers the penalty of kareit, spiritual excision; in other words, regardless of how good a Jew he is in all other ways, a man has no place in the World to Come if he is uncircumcised.

Circumcision is performed on the eighth day of the child's life, during the day. The day the child is born counts as the first day, thus if the child is born on a Wednesday, he is circumcised on the following Wednesday. Keep in mind that Jewish days begin at sunset, so if the child is born on a Wednesday evening, he is circumcised the following Thursday. Circumcisions are performed on Shabbat [i.e. the Sabbath], even though they involve the drawing of blood which is ordinarily forbidden on Shabbat. The Bible does not specify a reason for the choice of the eighth day; however, modern medicine has revealed that an infant's blood clotting mechanism stabilizes on the eighth day after birth. As with almost any commandment, circumcision can be postponed for health reasons. Jewish law provides that where the child's health is at issue, circumcision must wait until seven days after a doctor declares the child healthy enough to undergo the procedure.

Circumcision involves surgically removing the foreskin of the penis. The circumcision is performed by a mohel (lit. circumciser; rhymes with oil), a pious, observant Jew educated in the relevant Jewish law and in surgical techniques. Circumcision performed by a regular physician does not qualify as a valid brit milah, regardless of whether a rabbi says a blessing over it, because the removal of the foreskin is itself a religious ritual that must be performed by someone religiously qualified.

If the child is born without a foreskin (it happens occasionally), or if the child was previously circumcised without the appropriate religious intent or in a manner that rendered the circumcision religiously invalid, a symbolic circumcision may be performed by taking a pinprick of blood from the tip of the penis. This is referred to as hatafat dam brit.

While the circumcision is performed, the child is held by a person called a sandek. In English, this is often referred to as a godfather. It is an honor to be a sandek for a bris. The sandek is usually a grandparent or the family rabbi. Traditionally, a chair (often an ornate one) is set aside for Elijah, who is said to preside over all circumcisions. Various blessings are recited, including one over wine, and a drop of wine is placed in the child's mouth. The child is then given a formal Hebrew name.

It is not necessary to have a minyan (i.e. quorom of ten males over the age of 13) for a bris, but it is desirable if feasible.

As with most Jewish life events, the ritual is followed by refreshments or a festive meal.

The Circumcision Controversy

In recent times, circumcision has become controversial. Some have hypothesized that infant circumcision has harmful psychological effects and may cause sexual dysfunction. Many websites have sprung up promoting this point of view, and even in Israel there are those who want to outlaw circumcision as child abuse.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no concrete, scientific evidence that circumcision has any harmful effect. The rate of complications from circumcision is one of the lowest of all surgical procedures, and the most common complication is simply excessive bleeding. At most, the latest scientific evidence indicates that the health benefits of circumcision are not as great as previously assumed, thus there is no reason to perform routine circumcisions for the purposes of hygiene. However, as stated above, Jewish circumcision is not performed for the purpose of hygiene.

From the traditional Jewish point of view, there is no controversy. The ritual of circumcision was commanded by our Creator, and He certainly knows what is and is not good for us. The God who commanded us not to harm ourselves certainly would not command us to do something harmful to ourselves, and even if He did, the observant Jew would nonetheless heed His wishes.

Link: http://www.jewfaq.org/birth.htm#Brit

(cont.)
 
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stillsmallvoice

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(cont.)

Bris Milah Beautiful or Barbaric?
by Rabbi Shraga Simmons

Is circumcision a barbaric ritual that harms a child physically? Or is it a deep meaningful act that has both spiritual and medical benefits?

These days, the internet is filled with bulletin board discussions entitled "To circumcise or not?" Many will voice the opinion that circumcision (Bris Milah) is a cruel, barbaric procedure that can traumatize the baby. Some go so far as to claim that a Bris decreases future tolerance to pain, increases the risk of infection, has long term psychological affects, decreases sexual arousal, etc.

In Europe today, "human rights" groups have mounted a grass roots campaign opposing circumcision,comparing it to the brutal mutilation of African women. The Netherlands Institute of Human Rights wants to outlaw Bris Milah. And an article published in the prestigious British Medical Journal (April 2000), written by obstetricians, gynecologists, and midwives from hospitals in France, claimed:

"The [African] women we interviewed considered their daughters' mutilation and their sons' circumcision to be similar. Male circumcision is also a form of genital mutilation since it involves removing a healthy part of an organ. How can we convince mothers that they should not mutilate their daughters while they could continue to have their sons circumcised?"

Shockingly, this campaign even has adherents in Israel. In February 1998, a group of Israelis petitioned the Israeli Supreme Court to outlaw circumcision on the grounds that it is criminal assault. A joke? No. Case number 5780/98 is a real case, and the court has already held hearings.

Avshalom Zoossmann-Diskin, Executive Director of the Israeli Association Against Genital Mutilation in Tel Aviv, says that a campaign is urgently needed to end Bris Milah. "Why are they discriminating against me as a victim of Jewish male genital mutilation?" he decries. "Are my human rights, bodily integrity and suffering less important than those of African girls?"

JEWISH REASONS

The truth is, there is no "logical" argument for cutting a piece of flesh off a helpless baby.

Yet circumcision has been practiced on Jewish males for close to 4,000 years, ever since Abraham was so commanded by God. Why does the foreskin need to be removed?

In Kabbalistic terms, the foreskin symbolizes a barrier which prevents growth. For example, when the Torah speaks about getting close to God, it calls upon us to "remove the Orlah, the foreskin of your heart" (Deut. 10:16).

When Abraham circumcised himself at age 99, God added the letter "heh" to his name. "Heh" is part of God's own name, signifying that through Bris Milah, the human being adds a dimension of spirituality to the physical body.

It is a foundation of Judaism that we are to control our animal desires and direct them into spiritual pursuits. Nowhere does a person have more potential for expressing "barbaric" behavior than in the sex drive. That's
why the Bris is done on this specific organ. If we bring holiness into our life there, then all other areas will follow.

IDENTIFYING THE JEW

Another aspect of circumcision is that it is integral to Jewish identity. This point was made quite powerfully by a movie called "Europa Europa," It is the true story about a young Jewish boy trying to escape detection by the
Nazis. The boy resembles an Aryan and speaks German fluently, so he poses as a non-Jew and is eventually recruited into an elite training program for the next generation of SS officers.

This boy was on his way to a fully non-Jewish life, except for one thing: His circumcision. He couldn't hide it. And that is what kept him Jewish throughout the entire ordeal.

Bris is the sign of the covenant. So a boy who is not circumcised has basically lost his spiritual attachment to the Jewish people.

The man survived the war, and made a new life for himself in Israel. Instead, he may have ended up becoming a Nazi officer. It all depended on the Bris.

MEDICAL DATA

It is a principle of Jewish life that our decision to perform mitzvot [i.e. Torah precepts] is not based on the "practical benefit." At the same time, the mitzvot frequently have positive observable effects in our everyday life.

Regarding the medical issues, Rabbi Yonason Binyomin Goldberger writes in "Sanctity and Science":

As an operation, circumcision has an extremely small complication rate. A study in the New England Journal of Medicine (1990) reported a complication rate of 0.19 percent when circumcision is performed by a physician. When performed by a trained mohel, the rate falls to 0.13 percent or about 1 in 1000. When a complication occurs, it is usually excessive bleeding, which is easily correctable. No other surgical procedure can boast such figures for complication-free operations.

One reason why there are so few complications involving bleeding may be that the major clotting agents, prothrombin and vitamin K, do not reach peak levels in the blood until the eighth day of life. Prothrombin levels are normal at birth, drop to very low levels in the next few days, and return to normal at the end of the first week. One study showed that by the eighth day, prothrombin levels reach 110 percent of normal. In the words of Dr.
Armand J. Quick, author of several works on the control of bleeding, "It hardly seems accidental that the rite of circumcision was postponed until the eighth day by the Mosaic law."

Furthermore, circumcision has been known to offer virtually complete protection from penile cancer. According to a recent review article in the New England Journal of Medicine, none of the over 1,600 persons studied with this cancer had been circumcised in infancy. In the words of researchers Cochen and McCurdy, the incidence of penile cancer in the U.S. is "essentially zero" among circumcised men.

Several studies reported that circumcised boys were between 10-to-39 times less likely to develop urinary tract infections during infancy than uncircumcised boys. In addition, circumcision protects against bacterial, fungal, and parasitic infections and a variety of other conditions related to hygiene. The extremely low rate of cervical cancer in Jewish women (nine-to-22 times less than among non-Jewish women) is thought to be related to the practice of circumcision.

As a result of studies like these, a number of prestigious medical organizations have recognized the benefits of circumcision, and the California Medical Association has endorsed circumcision as an "effective public health measure."

BRIS IN THE HOLOCAUST

Bris has been the hallmark of Jewish identification for millennia. The following powerful story appears in "Hassidic Tales of the Holocaust" by Yaffa Eliach:

One of the forced laborers in the camps relates that one day he heard frightening cries of anguish the likes of which he had never heard before. Later he learned that on that very day a selection had been made -- of infants to be sent to the ovens. We continued working, tears rolling down our faces, and suddenly I hear the voice of a Jewish woman: "Give me a knife."

I thought she wanted to take her own life. I said to her, "Why are you hurrying so quickly to the world of truth..." All of a sudden the German soldier called out, "Dog, what did you say to the woman?"

"She requested a pocketknife and I explained to her that it was prohibited to commit suicide."

The woman looked at the German with inflamed eyes, and stared spellbound at his coat pocket where she saw the shape of his pocketknife. "Give it to me," she requested. She bent down and picked up a package of old rags. Hidden among them, on a pillow as white as snow, lay a tender infant. The woman took the pocketknife, pronounced the blessing -- and circumcised the child. "Master of the Universe," she cried, "You gave me a healthy child, I return him to You a worthy Jew."

Link:http://www.aish.com/literacy/lifecycle/bris_milah_beautiful_or_barbaric$.asp

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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Reformationist

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William1 said:
Strange as it may seem, Abraham was circumcised at the age of 100 years old and Moses at the age of 80. It has occurred to me that if these men of renown entered this covenant as adults, and if we supposedly would consider ourselves as having the faith of these giants, that just maybe we need to exercise this ritual as well, if we want to be saved.
William
Circumcision saves no more than does baptism, which is not at all. It is a sign of the covenant with God, or at least that's why it was instituted. We should look to the only necessary componant of our salvation, the obedience of Christ, as the object of our trust.

God bless
 
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William1

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Greetings;

The circumcision referred to in Acts 15 is the third type of circumcision, that of keeping all the Commandments and walking a holy life, one without sin. It is an action whereby you distance yourself from the sinning world. In other words, just because your brother does it, does not mean that you can do it.

The first two circumcisions that I mentioned obviously most people are familiar with, however this last type, is as foreign to most as sushi might be. The first two, namely that of Abraham and David, I didn’t need to give any Scripture references for, for all that read these pages were comfortable with my findings, however this last type, we will have to post a few passages.

Defiance of the requirements of this last of the three circumcisions causes one to become a fornicator. It becomes a mixing of the white and the black, the pure with the impure, the holy with the sinner.

Where do I find support for this Circumcision?
2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (KJV)

The underlying theme in this passage is for us who are holy, to not defile ourselves. We are to be a separate people. “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord,”

Numbers 16:21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. (KJV)

Ezra 6:21 And the children of Israel, which were come again out of captivity, and all such as had separated themselves unto them from the filthiness of the heathen of the land, to seek the LORD God of Israel, did eat, (KJV)

Ezra 10:11 Now therefore make confession unto the LORD God of your fathers, and do his pleasure: and separate yourselves from the people of the land, and from the strange wives. (KJV)

If you read the entire account in Ezra, you will see how His people had to get rid of their sinning wives, for as long as they had foreign wives, they were adulterers for their wives were fornicators.

Psalm 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. (KJV)

Proverbs 9:6 Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding. (KJV)

Isaiah 52:11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD. (KJV)

Jeremiah 51:6 Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence. (KJV)

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward (defiled/sinning) generation. (KJV)

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (KJV)

This cutting off/separation/circumcision became known as the Circumcision of Moshe. The people of God segregated themselves in such a way so as not to transgress against their Father. This is the only way by which we can please our God. This is the issue being addressed in Acts 15.

William
 
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William1

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Greetings;

What surprises me with those who are quick to translate any form of the word circumcision as meaning that of foreskins, is that they always translate it as being that of the foreskin.

I will try and make it as simple and direct as I know how. The issue at hand in Acts 15 is one which is brought forward by certain men and it would appear that they were not even brethren. These men make the statement that if anyone wants Life, they need to stay clear/be cut off/segregated/circumcised from the Gentiles, just as Moshe had supposedly taught. They were of the mind set that if you ate with a Gentile, or associated with them, then you were being defiled. (See Acts 10)

The Council comes back with the decree that it is permissible to eat with and visit with the world at large, however the new converts should be especially careful not to transgress in the four areas mentioned, while they were out and about. It had nothing to do with foreskin circumcision.

One can only imagine that these new worshipers had relatives and former friends whom they would still like to visit, however the Judaizers wanted to place this burden of non-association/circumcision/colony living, with the non-believers upon all new believers, so that they would be just like the Jews.

The Council is faced with this dilemma.
Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: (KJV)

If you will take note of the latter part of that sentence, it should read, Ye must be separated/dwell separately, and keep their instructions which they were charged with.

The Council comes back with the edict;
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. (KJV)

Being circumcised of the foreskin is a relatively insignificant inconvenience, so the people obviously weren’t rejoicing because this ritual had been supposedly placed on hold or temporarily lifted. Furthermore, if being circumcised was only a temporary delay, why the celebrations? Why celebrate if the operation/ritual would still have to take place, albeit it, at a latter time?

The people were happy (they rejoiced for the consolation) because they were allowed to visit their heathen friends and live anywhere they pleased. The Council’s advisory had more to do with chastising the Jews than restricting the new Gentile believers. The Gentiles were cautioned in the four areas because it was in these four areas that it would be rather easy to sin while they were associating with none believers.

If you have read of the Essences, their situation would give you a clearer picture of what these men were proposing, however the Council would have nothing to do with it. The Essences lived in a separated Colony with many laws, which were man made.

So the verdict made by the Council came in agreement with Messiah’s message and example, we do not have to live circumcised/cut-off/segregated from the world in order to be saved.

When taking context into consideration, it is rather easy to see that the reply with the four requirements which come from the Council, of which Jacob is the head of, have absolutely nothing to do with foreskins, but have everything to do with separation, a cutting off, a disassociation with the populace at large. The Council responds with a message that is in unity with the Son, and the Father.

In Pursuit of Clemency
William

Ps, there are some 49 occurrences of this word in the NT. Maybe we could go to another passage now. To help you with context, I suggest Gal 2 or Galations 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. (KJV)
Galatians 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you. (KJV) or the NIV
Galatians 5:12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! (NIV)
 
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simchat_torah

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Just a tid bit here, the removal of the foreskin was never the intent, but rather just an ever so small a clipping so as to remove a tiny piece of skin and draw some blood, my wife did me/ my three sons/ and several other men over the years. It was a cut in the foreskin, not the removal



What????

I never cease to be amazed at what kinds of things people will make up.

*shrug*
 
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