Circumcision

[MattyJames]

That is an excellent point! So how do we combine that fact with the fact other's have brought up about not being able to partake of the Passover Seder unless one is circumcised?

Exactly my point Tishri1

Shabbat Shalom,

MattyJames

 

[Tishri1]

I would suggest that this is much the same as the Lord's supper in its observance rules - in fact one is a foreshadow of the other (note I am not suggesting that one wipes out the other, that would be contrary to what I believe but the Lord's supper makes the seder complete). Nobody who is not a believer is to take part in the Lord's supper. Circumcision in Exodus would have played a similar role to modern day baptism as an outward sign of a person's devotion to God. If a foreigner wanted to come and celebrate a feast of G-d, they should first accept him and demonstrate a commitment to his ways.

In terms of Messianic celebrations, I would suggest that it would be circumcission of the heart which would be important here.

see I agree with this but would love to see the Scripture that settles it....once and for all

time to start digging Fam

It's funny cuz you know it in your heart but that isn't always good enough when it comes to really wanting that answer from His Word...I know we will find it somewhere ,I have confidence in His Word and we are great diggers ...ok where's my shovel?

 

[Wags]

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Exodus 12:48 If a foreigner staying with you wants to observe ADONAI's Pesach, all his males must be circumcised. Then he may take part and observe it; he will be like a citizen of the land. But no uncircumcised person is to eat it. 49 The same teaching is to apply equally to the citizen and to the foreigner living among you."

I don't know how much clearer the instructions could be. It doesn't mention age - but it does say ALL his males. And torah observance is the appropriate conduct of a person who has been redeemed.

Of course at present we cannot truely keep Pesach or any of the other appointed times completely, since there is not a temple for conducting the sacrifices in. That is the only "out" I can see for someone not being cicumcised - well that and someone who repents and doesn't have the time/opportunity for circ or baptism before their death.

What I don't understand is the reluctance to follow the commands of G-d when it comes to circ. Yes I'm sure its painful (but it can't be as bad as giving birth!) but if you aren't willing to undergo a little pain to follow this command, then what would happen if your beliefs were outlawed? Would you cave in or would you stand firm?



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[MattyJames]

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I don't know how much clearer the instructions could be. It doesn't mention age - but it does say ALL his males. And torah observance is the appropriate conduct of a person who has been redeemed.

Of course at present we cannot truely keep Pesach or any of the other appointed times completely, since there is not a temple for conducting the sacrifices in. That is the only "out" I can see for someone not being cicumcised - well that and someone who repents and doesn't have the time/opportunity for circ or baptism before their death.

What I don't understand is the reluctance to follow the commands of G-d when it comes to circ. Yes I'm sure its painful (but it can't be as bad as giving birth!) but if you aren't willing to undergo a little pain to follow this command, then what would happen if your beliefs were outlawed? Would you cave in or would you stand firm?



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Yes Wags, I understand where your comming from. Never the less, there are too many other Scriptures that contradict this view.

Like I said eirler, I veiw this as Circumcision of the Heart, the cutting off of the Man of Sin, the cutting off of all other things but that which pertains to the God of Israel. Otherwise I find myself arguing against the Apostle Paul, who, even when the temple was still standing, did not have Titus Circumcised (Gal 2:3) and I find myself arguing against Torah, which perscribes Circucision to a Male of Eight days, being born in the Land.

It seems we have to agree to dissagree on this one. I am not saying I am right, and adversly that you are wrong, I am still searching. But for now, I do not agree with your views.

G-ds grace be with you,

MattyJames

 

[Tishri1]

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I don't know how much clearer the instructions could be. It doesn't mention age - but it does say ALL his males. And torah observance is the appropriate conduct of a person who has been redeemed.

Of course at present we cannot truely keep Pesach or any of the other appointed times completely, since there is not a temple for conducting the sacrifices in. That is the only "out" I can see for someone not being cicumcised - well that and someone who repents and doesn't have the time/opportunity for circ or baptism before their death.

What I don't understand is the reluctance to follow the commands of G-d when it comes to circ. Yes I'm sure its painful (but it can't be as bad as giving birth!) but if you aren't willing to undergo a little pain to follow this command, then what would happen if your beliefs were outlawed? Would you cave in or would you stand firm?



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Wags what do you think about Paul's words on Circumcision?

 

[Espada]

Here's the thing nobody has suggested breaking any commandments or nullifying any, Christ's death just brought a clearer meaning to the law and widened the goal posts a bit. Nothing I posted suggested a breaking of the laws unless otherwise backed up by scripture.

First the Lord's Supper is part of Passover - the easy one Matt 26:17-30
Believers are called to keep it 1Cor 11:23-26

We know from my earlier postings that Jews are still required to be circumcised and gentiles aren't.

Anyone who takes the Lord's supper is called to examine themselves rather than take it in an unworthy manner 1 Cor 11:27:29

It is not possible for a non believer to examine themselves which is why they should not take part in the Lord's supper.

Notice that despite Corinth being mixed Jew and Gentile, he does not mention that only the circumcised should take the supper.

All believers are called to celebrate the Lord's supper, yet only the Jews are called be be circumcised of the flesh.

 

[Espada]

Unless there is a specific command by Yeshua that nulifies a portion of Torah (which there isn't - if He had taught against Torah then he would not be the messiah) then the commands in Torah are STILL applicable today to ALL beleivers regardless of their ethnicity.

I've said it once and I'll say it again - either you are a child (adopted or natural) of Abraham or you aren't. If you are, then all the rights and responsibilities that go along with belonging to the family are part of the deal. You don't get to pick and choose what parts of the family rules you want to keep.

Would that include all the laws regarding stoning?

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

(21st Century King James Version) Deuteronomy 10:12-16


Yeshua My Salvation> I believe that G-d still wants us to circumcise our meal children let me attempt to explain why i hold on to this position.....



12"And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all His ways, and to love Him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
13to keep the commandments of the LORD and His statutes which I command thee this day for thy good?

14Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

15Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them; and He chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.

16Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.



(21st Century King James Version)

Deuteronomy 30:6-11





6And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

7And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies and on them that hate thee, who persecuted thee.

8And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all His commandments which I command thee this day.

9And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good. For the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as He rejoiced over thy fathers,

10if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart and with all thy soul.

11"For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

(21st Century King James Version)

Ezek 44:7
7 in that ye have brought into My sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary to pollute it, even My house, when ye offer My bread, the fat and the blood; and they have broken My covenant because of all your abominations.


Yeshua My Salvation> These passages seem to indicate that physical circumcision is the outward menefestation of the circumcision of the heart; while circumcision of the heart repersents our setting our hearts apart to Adonai... circumcision of the flesh represesnts more the "outward sign"of our being Holy to Adonai, and set apart as his chosen people!!



(21st Century King James Version)

1 Cor 7:19 19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.


Yeshua My Salvation> Here we have a troublesome passage that seems to contradict as i meantioned before, if taken at face value it would seem to be a "non sepuitur" .. circumcision is one of the Commandments of G-d... So how can circumcision be nothing and at the same time be important, as Paul mentions we should keep the Commandments of G-d..


(Lets look at Acts 15:1) .... 1 And certain men who came down from Judea taught the brethren and said, "Unless ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved."


Yeshua My Salvation> The passage in Acts was not about whether or not circumcision applied to infants, but whether or not salvation depended on being circumcised... This drives Paul crazy because he knew that salvation never depended on ones preformance or observance of things but by grace through faith in Messiah.... We are saved by his life not by any works of righteousness which we have done.... It's the biggest reason why Paul points out that Abraham was saved first then circumcised.... circumcision was just an act of obidience from Abrahams part, not something he did to obtain eternal life... Rom 2:9-12

 

[Tishri1]

AMEN! So where is that hidden scripture or explaination that will settle this once and for all.....I think we all share the view that this is a tricky topic and no one has the PAT answer .....it could easily be seen both ways.....we need another witness in the word

Oh and if we don't find it no one is condemned for having to choose one answer over the other, as we are all open to the Truth and that is what being a follower of Yeshua is all about

 

[Tishri1]

did I post this yet....I don't know how to copy a portion of this to you but turn to pages 4, 5, 7, 12, 14, 15....(forget it just read the whole thing hehehe) ....does that maybe explain a tiny bit more? Just a thought....what did you think about the promised seed thing?

 

[Yovel]

Act 15:19-21 "Therefore my judgment is that we don't trouble those from among the Gentiles who turn to God, but that we write to them that they abstain from the pollution of idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood. For Moshe from generations of old has in every city those who preach him, being read in the synagogues every Shabbat."

It would seem to me that if one sits under the teaching of Moshe each Shabbat, eventually he would want to follow Torah with his whole heart and he would be willing to be circ'd.

James didn't want to overwhelm new believers so he just gave the instruction to "abstain from the pollution of idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood," as being the first steps of following Torah.

I can see how a person just coming into Messinanic Judaism would be overwhelmed if everything had to be done at once. We as parents don't expect our children to do math and English as soon as they are born. I think the Talmidim were using great wisdom.

So, as children brought up in the faith are not required to know all there is right away, the same applies to those who are called out of the church and want to be a part of the Messianic movement.

 

[Tishri1]

It would seem to me that if one sits under the teaching of Moshe each Shabbat, eventually he would want to follow Torah with his whole heart and he would be willing to be circ'd.

James didn't want to overwhelm new believers so he just gave the instruction to "abstain from the pollution of idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood," as being the first steps of following Torah.

I can see how a person just coming into Messinanic Judaism would be overwhelmed if everything had to be done at once. We as parents don't expect our children to do math and English as soon as they are born. I think the Talmidim were using great wisdom.

So, as children brought up in the faith are not required to know all there is right away, the same applies to those who are called out of the church and want to be a part of the Messianic movement.

Yovel, do you think Paul wanted them to get circ* later then?

 

[mauricioalejandro]

It would seem to me that if one sits under the teaching of Moshe each Shabbat, eventually he would want to follow Torah with his whole heart and he would be willing to be circ'd.

James didn't want to overwhelm new believers so he just gave the instruction to "abstain from the pollution of idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood," as being the first steps of following Torah.

I can see how a person just coming into Messinanic Judaism would be overwhelmed if everything had to be done at once. We as parents don't expect our children to do math and English as soon as they are born. I think the Talmidim were using great wisdom.

So, as children brought up in the faith are not required to know all there is right away, the same applies to those who are called out of the church and want to be a part of the Messianic movement.

If I may, I would say that even if one takes the point of view that all followers of Jesus should follow the commandments of the Torah, the Torah itself never prescribes Circumcision for all Nations. The only laws that Torah talks about for Gentiles are those given thru Noach. In support of this you will notice that the 4 laws that James and Paul finally agreed on for Gentile followers of Jesus are all part of the 7 Noachide laws. So, I'd say that if you are a Torah-abiding Gentile (because you believe Jesus when he said that 'not one jot or tittle shall pass away from the law') then the specific commandments that apply to you are the Noachide laws. If a Gentile Messianic follows additional Torah laws because they were given to the Jews at Sinai, that's probably fine, but not necessary.

Mauricio

 

[Yovel]

Yovel, do you think Paul wanted them to get circ* later then?

I think Paul would want them to be circ* after they have matured in the Torah. You have to know what you are getting into before you make a big decision like that.

 

[Wags]

Would that include all the laws regarding stoning?

Ah yes, the old stoning argument -

We do not live in a theocratic society in Israel so we can not carry out those laws, just like we can not at this time, carry out the laws regarding sacrifice. However, scripture tells us that in the New Jerusalem we will be bringing sacrifice and keeping Shabbat etc...

Just becuase we cannot fulfill those instructions at present does not mean that they are null and void.

 

[Espada]

Ah yes, the old stoning argument -

We do not live in a theocratic society in Israel so we can not carry out those laws, just like we can not at this time, carry out the laws regarding sacrifice. However, scripture tells us that in the New Jerusalem we will be bringing sacrifice and keeping Shabbat etc...

Just becuase we cannot fulfill those instructions at present does not mean that they are null and void.

Actually it is not the OLD stoning argument, that assumes stoning is wrong, that is heretical because God does not ask us to do what is wrong.

The question more aimed at finding what level you put God's law at. Is it above the law of the land or below. Which would you follow if there was a conflict between them.

 

[Yovel]

First the Lord's Supper is part of Passover - the easy one Matt 26:17-30
Believers are called to keep it 1Cor 11:23-26

We know from my earlier postings that Jews are still required to be circumcised and gentiles aren't.

Anyone who takes the Lord's supper is called to examine themselves rather than take it in an unworthy manner 1 Cor 11:27:29

It is not possible for a non believer to examine themselves which is why they should not take part in the Lord's supper.

Notice that despite Corinth being mixed Jew and Gentile, he does not mention that only the circumcised should take the supper.

All believers are called to celebrate the Lord's supper, yet only the Jews are called be be circumcised of the flesh.

Paul was talking about believers doing Pesach (Passover), not the L-rd's supper. The L-rd's supper is from the church fathers' doing away with all the festivals of the L-rd and taking the Jewishness and significance of the festivals out of the early church.

 

[Wags]

Paul was talking about believers doing Pesach (Passover), not the L-rd's supper. The L-rd's supper is from the church fathers' doing away with all the festivals of the L-rd and taking the Jewishness and significance of the festival out of the early church.

Very true

 

[Espada]

Paul was talking about believers doing Pesach (Passover), not the L-rd's supper. The L-rd's supper is from the church fathers' doing away with all the festivals of the L-rd and taking the Jewishness and significance of the festival out of the early church.

As I said the Lord's Supper is part of the Passover, but it is not the passover. Paul was not referring to Passover, if he was he would have used πάσχα

As in Mat 26:17

17 Τῇ δὲ πρώτῃ τῶν ἀζύμων προσῆλθον οἱ μαθηταὶ τῷ Ἰησοῦ λέγοντες, Ποῦ θέλεις ἑτοιμάσωμέν σοι φαγεῖν τὸ πάσχα;http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn1 http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref1Aland, B., Aland, K., Black, M., Martini, C. M., Metzger, B. M., & Wikgren, A. (1993, c1979). The Greek New Testament (4th ed.) (Mt 26:17). Federal Republic of Germany: United Bible Societies.

Instead Paul uses κυριακὸν δεῖπνον or supper belonging to the Lord.

1 Cor 11:20 20 Συνερχομένων οὖν ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτὸ οὐκ ἔστιν κυριακὸν δεῖπνον φαγεῖν·http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn1 http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref1 The later should be part of the former as I originally said but they are not the same.
/

 

[Tishri1]

I know Gentiles could not go into the Temple because they were not circ* and I know they could not partake of the Passover Lamb because they were not circ* these two event and the act of circ* itself were connected to the Temple.....HMMMMM I'm just throwing this out as a hypothesis.....what if Circ* is suspended untill we have a new Temple?

1. we know that the Jews and Gentiles in the Wilderness didn't Circ* untill right before they entered into the land
2. we know they didn't keep passover untill they entered into the land (that is true right?)

3. we know that Circ* at least for Yeshua was done in the Temple (was it done anywhere else in his day, this paert I don't know)

4.We know Circ* has notthing to do with salvation

5. we know it does have to do with Torah observance AND we know that because we don't have a Temple we cannot do ALL the mitzvot...HMMMMMM

Still Pauls words are very clear even before the Temple was torn down

If Paul wanted them just to wait awhile I would understand but his words are sooooo heated, why wouldn't he say just wait awhile?

he wanted what's his name to get circ* yes but they were going to the Temple too weren't they?

I know someone out there has the answer!

did anyone read Tim Hagues Article? What do you think about the seed therory?