Circumcision

[jgonz]

The foreigner can not partake of Passover if he is no circumsicesd.

But as a Believer who's been grafted into the Vine, doesn't circumcision of the heart count as the same circumcision for the Passover?

 

[Wags]

But as a Believer who's been grafted into the Vine, doesn't circumcision of the heart count as the same circumcision for the Passover?

Well if Adonai warns foriegners who join themselves to Him that they are not cut off from his people.... and if Paul says that they are grafted in... then why would their be different instructions for them? Either they are the (adopted) sons of Abraham or they aren't. (By the way scripture says that even Abrahams servants were circumcised.)

In other words if you are keeping Passover because you want to obey the instructions of the Creator, then you shouldn't say that His instructions about who may keep it don't apply to you.

 

[MattyJames]

The foreigner can not partake of Passover if he is no circumsicesd.

Exo 12:48 When a stranger shall live as a foreigner with you, and will keep the Pesach to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one who is born in the land: but no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

But what circumcision does this verse refer to? It does not make clear as to wether Adoni means circumcision of the flesh, or circumcision of the heart.

Would any of you be able to read the original text to gain a better insight?

thanks,

MattyJames

 

[MattyJames]

Once a non-believer has chosen to follow Adonai and to be called child of Abraham they are grafted into the family tree, and consequently they have the same rights and RESPONSIBILITIES as any other member of the family.

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Spot on Wags

G-ds grace be with you.

 

[Yovel]

The foreigner can not partake of Passover if he is no circumsicesd.

Exo 12:48 When a stranger shall live as a foreigner with you, and will keep the Pesach to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one who is born in the land: but no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

But what circumcision does this verse refer to? It does not make clear as to wether Adoni means circumcision of the flesh, or circumcision of the heart.

Would any of you be able to read the original text to gain a better insight?

thanks,

MattyJames

Well Matty, at this time in the Torah I believe G-d was talking about circumcision of the flesh, not the heart.

Exo 4:21 The LORD said to Moshe, "When you go back into Egypt, see that you do before Par`oh all the wonders which I have put in your hand, but I will harden his heart and he will not let the people go.
Exo 4:22 You shall tell Par`oh, 'Thus says the LORD, Yisra'el is my son, my firstborn,
Exo 4:23 and I have said to you, "Let my son go, that he may serve me;" and you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn.'"
Exo 4:24 It happened on the way at a lodging place, that the LORD met him and wanted to kill him.
Exo 4:25 Then Tzipporah took a flint, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet; and she said, "Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me."
Exo 4:26 So he let him alone. Then she said, "You are a bridegroom of blood," because of the circumcision.

 

[MattyJames]

Exo 12:48 When a stranger shall live as a foreigner with you, and will keep the Pesach to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one who is born in the land: but no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

Well Matty, at this time in the Torah I believe G-d was talking about circumcision of the flesh, not the heart.

Then Paul was teaching against the ordinances of Torah? It just doesn't seem to be sitting right with me.

Is there anything in the original that can shed any light? As in the way the word is written mabey??

Pondering...

 

[Wags]

I don't think Paul was preaching against Torah. Having your heart circumcised means being right with Adonai. If you are circumcised in the flesh, but aren't right with Adonai then you are in violation of Torah.

 

[Tishri1]

there HAS TO be an explanation! I think in regards to Those verses the context they were talking about was being born again/saved/redeemed....with out any hoops(circumcision) and then as if Faith in Yeshua is not GOOD ENOUGH, jumping thru the Hoops Man set up to get approval and acceptance and Circumcizing your self after the fact, nullifying your faith in the blood of the lamb...what do you guys think? If that is the context then I would assume for Salvation Heart circumcision is all that is nessessary....BUT there may be a totally different and BIBLICAL reason to circumcise yourself as an Adult

 

[Wags]

Well if you mean the "hoops" other than circ. then maybe... circ isn't necessary before you are a believer - torah is all about a redeemed person's (the theme of Passover - redeemed from Egypt, redeemed by the blood of the lamb....) right relationship with their redeemer.

I think sometimes people get the idea that a circumcized heart is a "new testament" or a "paul thing" but in fact it is mentioned in torah. The concept is found twice in D'varim in chapters 10 & 30:

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[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Deuteronomy (D'varim)10:[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]12 "So now, Isra'el, all that ADONAI your God asks from you is to fear ADONAI your God, follow all his ways, love him and serve ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being; 13 to obey, for your own good, the mitzvot and regulations of ADONAI which I am giving you today. 14 See, the sky, the heaven beyond the sky, the earth and everything on it all belong to ADONAI your God. 15 Only ADONAI took enough pleasure in your ancestors to love them and choose their descendants after them -yourselves -above all peoples, as he still does today. 16 Therefore, circumcise the foreskin of your heart; and don't be stiffnecked any longer! 17 For ADONAI your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, mighty and awesome God, who has no favorites and accepts no bribes. 18 He secures justice for the orphan and the widow; he loves the foreigner, giving him food and clothing. 19 Therefore you are to love the foreigner, since you were foreigners in the land of Egypt. 20 You are to fear ADONAI your God, serve him, cling to him and swear by his name. 21 He is your praise, and he is your God, who has done for you these great and awesome things, which you have seen with your own eyes.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Deuteronomy (D'varim) 30:[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 "When the time arrives that all these things have come upon you, both the blessing and the curse which I have presented to you; and you are there among the nations to which ADONAI your God has driven you; then, at last, you will start thinking about what has happened to you; 2 and you will return to ADONAI your God and pay attention to what he has said, which will be exactly what I am ordering you to do today - you and your children, with all your heart and all your being. 3 At that point, ADONAI your God will reverse your exile and show you mercy; he will return and gather you from all the peoples to which ADONAI your God scattered you. 4 If one of yours was scattered to the far end of the sky, ADONAI your God will gather you even from there; he will go there and get you. 5 ADONAI your God will bring you back into the land your ancestors possessed, and you will possess it; he will make you prosper there, and you will become even more numerous than your ancestors. 6 Then ADONAI your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your children, so that you will love ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being, and thus you will live. 7 ADONAI your God will put all these curses on your enemies, on those who hated and persecuted you; 8 but you will return and pay attention to what ADONAI says and obey all his mitzvot which I am giving you today. 9 Then ADONAI your God will give you more than enough in everything you set out to do - the fruit of your body, the fruit of your livestock, and the fruit of your land will all do well; for ADONAI will once again rejoice to see you do well, just as he rejoiced in your ancestors. 10 "However, all this will happen only if you pay attention to what ADONAI your God says, so that you obey his mitzvot and regulations which are written in this book of the Torah, if you turn to ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being.[/FONT]

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[plum]

So in order to celebrate Pesach one must be circumcised in the flesh... but in order to be a child of G-d one must be circumcised in the heart. hm.

what say you about this?

Ro 2:26 - Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the Torah, won't his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?

1Co 7:18 - Was someone already circumcised when he was called? Then he should not try to remove the marks of his circumcision. Was someone uncircumcised when he was called? He shouldn't undergo b'rit-milah. 19 Being circumcised means nothing, and being uncircumcised means nothing; what does mean something is keeping God's commandments.

In these Scriptures does "circumcised" always mean "Jew" and "uncircumcised" always mean Gentile? Or does it actually have to do with the act of the brit milah as a sign of the covenant to Abraham? I've heard it taught that these Scriptures were written to teach the gentiles that they didn't have to undergo ritual immersion and circumcision in order to be saved like the Judaizers believed. however... the part that says "he shouldn't undergo brit milah" still perplexes me.
And how can someone follow Torah when one is not able to participate in Pesach? Doesn't that make the Scripture more confusing? So shouldn't the circumcision of the heart matter for observing Pesach? Or did Paul not want these gentile uncircumcised people observing Pesach??

 

[Tishri1]

Well if you mean the "hoops" other than circ. then maybe... circ isn't necessary before you are a believer - torah is all about a redeemed person's (the theme of Passover - redeemed from Egypt, redeemed by the blood of the lamb....) right relationship with their redeemer.

I think sometimes people get the idea that a circumcized heart is a "new testament" or a "paul thing" but in fact it is mentioned in torah. The concept is found twice in D'varim in chapters 10 & 30:

well said Wags (better than me today, i cant seem to think well today, drove for over 5 hours yesterday ) So if circ* is a Torah thing YES and not a Salvation thing then maybe that's the answer.....wait until after Salvation then look at the possibilities in Torah NOT BRFORE

OK now that were saved(that was fast) what now?

 

[Wags]

So in order to celebrate Pesach one must be circumcised in the flesh... but in order to be a child of G-d one must be circumcised in the heart. hm.

what say you about this?


In these Scriptures does "circumcised" always mean "Jew" and "uncircumcised" always mean Gentile? Or does it actually have to do with the act of the brit milah as a sign of the covenant to Abraham? I've heard it taught that these Scriptures were written to teach the gentiles that they didn't have to undergo ritual immersion and circumcision in order to be saved like the Judaizers believed. however... the part that says "he shouldn't undergo brit milah" still perplexes me.
And how can someone follow Torah when one is not able to participate in Pesach? Doesn't that make the Scripture more confusing? So shouldn't the circumcision of the heart matter for observing Pesach? Or did Paul not want these gentile uncircumcised people observing Pesach??

Ro 2:26 - Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the Torah, won't his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?

If Paul were using circ and uncirc to refer to Jews and Gentiles then perhaps this verse could be seen this way...

If a gentile keeps the righteous requirements of the Troah won't he be counted as a Jew? (Jew - meaning a child of Abraham) Reading it that way it fits with his "grafted in" comments.

I'm not sure about the brit milah comment, but it is possible he was again refering to the rabbinical ritual of his day. It would be impossible to follow Torah and not be circ'd.

Once again if you substitue the words Jew & Gentile - it makes a lot more sense.... If you were a Jew when you became a believer, don't start acting like a Gentile. (could that mean don't go to church on Sunday, abandon torah etc) If you were a Gentile then there is no need for you to go to the local rabbinical authority to convert, just follow torah.

As for immersion - did not Yeshua say "[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh." (Matt 28:19)

So obviously Paul would not be teaching against immersion as a whole, but against the ritual of conversion as set up by the religious establishment of the day.
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[Tishri1]

If Paul were using circ and uncirc to refer to Jews and Gentiles then perhaps this verse could be seen this way...

If a gentile keeps the righteous requirements of the Troah won't he be counted as a Jew? (Jew - meaning a child of Abraham) Reading it that way it fits with his "grafted in" comments.

I'm not sure about the brit milah comment, but it is possible he was again refering to the rabbinical ritual of his day. It would be impossible to follow Torah and not be circ'd.

Once again if you substitue the words Jew & Gentile - it makes a lot more sense.... If you were a Jew when you became a believer, don't start acting like a Gentile. (could that mean don't go to church on Sunday, abandon torah etc) If you were a Gentile then there is no need for you to go to the local rabbinical authority to convert, just follow torah.

As for immersion - did not Yeshua say "[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh." (Matt 28:19)

So obviously Paul would not be teaching against immersion as a whole, but against the ritual of conversion as set up by the religious establishment of the day.
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amen that is exactly what I think!

 

[MattyJames]

If Paul were using circ and uncirc to refer to Jews and Gentiles then perhaps this verse could be seen this way...

If a gentile keeps the righteous requirements of the Troah won't he be counted as a Jew? (Jew - meaning a child of Abraham) Reading it that way it fits with his "grafted in" comments.

I'm not sure about the brit milah comment, but it is possible he was again refering to the rabbinical ritual of his day. It would be impossible to follow Torah and not be circ'd. (Emphasis by MJ)

Once again if you substitue the words Jew & Gentile - it makes a lot more sense.... If you were a Jew when you became a believer, don't start acting like a Gentile. (could that mean don't go to church on Sunday, abandon torah etc) If you were a Gentile then there is no need for you to go to the local rabbinical authority to convert, just follow torah.

As for immersion - did not Yeshua say "[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh." (Matt 28:19)

So obviously Paul would not be teaching against immersion as a whole, but against the ritual of conversion as set up by the religious establishment of the day.
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I think so too.

But the only logical explination for the bolded area is that G*d was talking about Cir* of the HEART not of the FLESH. If Ex 12 is read in this light then it would all make sense.

What do you all think??

 

[Wags]

I think so too.

But the only logical explination for the bolded area is that G*d was talking about Cir* of the HEART not of the FLESH. If Ex 12 is read in this light then it would all make sense.

What do you all think??

I'm not entirely sure what you mean...

In Exodus 12 there are two commands that specifically refer to the foreigners:

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19 During those seven days, no leaven is to be found in your houses. Whoever eats food with hametz in it is to be cut off from the community of Isra'el - it doesn't matter whether he is a foreigner or a citizen of the land. 20 Eat nothing with hametz in it. Wherever you live, eat matzah.'"

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43 ADONAI said to Moshe and Aharon, "This is the regulation for the Pesach lamb: no foreigner is to eat it. 44 But if anyone has a slave he bought for money, when you have circumcised him, he may eat it. 45 Neither a traveler nor a hired servant may eat it. 46 It is to be eaten in one house. You are not to take any of the meat outside the house, and you are not to break any of its bones. 47 The whole community of Isra'el is to keep it. 48 If a foreigner staying with you wants to observe ADONAI's Pesach, all his males must be circumcised. Then he may take part and observe it; he will be like a citizen of the land. But no uncircumcised person is to eat it. 49 The same teaching is to apply equally to the citizen and to the foreigner living among you."

Since the term "circumcised heart" is used else where in Torah then I would think if that is what it is refering to here then that would be the term used. But since it isn't, I can only surmize that it is refering to physical cicumcision.
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[YeshuamySalvation]

I will quickly attempt to explain God's LAW as best as i can and circumcision......

the blood of bulls and goats were never meant to take away ones sins ( Yeshua is our perfect sacrifice). Yeshua's discourse in Matt 5:17-20, is cut and dry. The fulfillment of TORAH and the Prophets. That not one jot or tittle will pass away, from the TORAH. Yeshua refers to the smallest Hebrew letter and the decorations on the letters that can be found in the TORAH.

Yeshua is saying that TORAH as a whole is important and still binding. And that not the slightest bit of the TORAH would pass until ALL is fulfilled.

Circumcision!!!

Eph 2:11-14 11
¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;....

Yeshua My Salvation > the circumcision made by hands has it's origin in man, the Judiazers called Gentiles the uncircumcised meaning the "unsaved," because there religion taught them they had to be circumcisied to be saved.

12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Yeshua My Salvation > Here Paul say's that they were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world, but this was not so in the OT, Gentiles were part of the the commonwealth of Israel, and the covenants of promise....

Exodus.12:49 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Num.15:14-16 15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD.
16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

Deut.29:10-15 10 ¶ Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,

11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp,
from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water: 12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day:

13 as That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;

15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:

Isaiah.56:2-8 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

3 ¶ Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be
accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.


Eph.2:13-15
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Yeshua My Salvation > Gentiles are now brought nigh by the redemtion that is in Christ Jesus, they are no longer strangers but partakers of the Covenants and promises.

14
¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Yeshua My Salvation > Yeshua is the peace between "Jews and Gentiles" alike, he made both Jews and Gentiles one breaking down the middle wall of "partition" that was between them.


Eph 2:15-16 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Yeshua My Salvation > The " law of commandments contained in ordinances" is not the law of God, it's the law of man this law was exactly what seperated "Jews" from "Gentiles" Christ abolished this law in his flesh, it was this law that said that no Gentile could come into the Temple, no Jews could eat nor fellowship with a Gentile, this law considered Gentiles to be dogs greatly inferior to the Jews.

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"


Yeshua My Salvation > the origin of the circumcision made by hand comes from men not from God, the circumcision that was given to Abraham came from God not from men.

Acts.17:24 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

It saids God dwelleth not in temples made with hands, yet God told his people ..... Exodus.25:8 8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.



1 Cor 7:19 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Yeshua My Salvation > from first glance Paul statement seems to be contradictory, first he saids "Circumcision" is nothing, and "uncircumcision" is also nothing, but the keeping of the "commandments of God" which does not exclude circumcision sounds funny, What he means In other words, one does not have an advantage over the other, yet, he says, we must keep the commandments of God. "Which also includes circumcision".

sounds like a cotradiction but it's not, rather there is an allusion to circumcision for the purpose of a sign of conversion having been substituted by baptism, but circumcision remains as a hygienic requirement. Paul is stating that circumcision is not enough, we must circumcise the foreskin of our hearts [Deut.10:16; Deut.30:6; Jere.4:4] by Keeping all of the commandments of God and not just circumcision alone.

Blessings

 

[MattyJames]

Yeshua My Salvation > the origin of the circumcision made by hand comes from men not from God, the circumcision that was given to Abraham came from God not from men.




1 Cor 7:19 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Yeshua My Salvation > from first glance Paul statement seems to be contradictory, first he saids "Circumcision" is nothing, and "uncircumcision" is also nothing, but the keeping of the "commandments of God" which does not exclude circumcision sounds funny, What he means In other words, one does not have an advantage over the other, yet, he says, we must keep the commandments of God. "Which also includes circumcision".

sounds like a cotradiction but it's not, rather there is an allusion to circumcision for the purpose of a sign of conversion having been substituted by baptism, but circumcision remains as a hygienic requirement. Paul is stating that circumcision is not enough, we must circumcise the foreskin of our hearts [Deut.10:16; Deut.30:6; Jere.4:4] by Keeping all of the commandments of God and not just circumcision alone.

Blessings

Greetings YMS,

I agree with the rest of your post Good Preaching brother.

But... A few things I'm finding hard to understand.

Either cir' of the Flesh came from G-d or from man. I believe that it came from G-d. I think your splitting hairs there. The circumstances by which circumcisiom is undertaken can either be of Man or of G-d.

As I see it now (But I am still searching), is that G-d never required Cir' of the Flesh of a Stranger that is over 8 days old. Of the Homeborn, if Cir' is not undertaken at the age of 8 days, then there must be a "remedy of the breach".(Josh 5:2)

This is why Paul states in Gal 5:2 "Behold I Paul say unto you, that if ye be Circumcised*, Messiah shall profit you nothing."

*ie: He is speaking to grown Gentile/Galation men.

If we hold the stance that Cir' of the Flesh is a requirment in order to Keep Pesach, then we are undoing Pauls whole ministry.

He goes on to say Gal 5:4 "In Messiah Yeshua neither Circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but Faith which worketh by Love"

Now we know that Circumcision does availeth to those who are the Children of G-d. So what is Paul talking about??

I believe he is saying that you Gentiles were "once afar off", but are now made near by "the circumcision that is made without hands". That Old man is now gone. You are a "new creature".
He goes on to say Gal 5:3 "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole Law."

Once again, we know that everyone that calls himself a Child of G-d is indebted to keep the whole law. So what is Paul stating?

What I feel that Paul is stating is as follows: If you go back and perform cir', then you must go back and perform the rest of the commandments! If that means that you've had and affair, then you must be stoned, if you've murdered, you must be stoned etc. In other words you have not attained Salvation by Grace. You are trying to go back and fix up the unfixable.

My argument remains that Torah first states that Circumcision is perfomed on a Child of eight days old Ex 17:12.

If we then read anything more than a "Man child of eight days old" into Ex 12: 45 & 48 then we are "adding to the words of this book" and, as Paul States we are enforceing upon the New believers a burden that "Neither you, nor our fathers could bare".

My definition of Circumcision of the Flesh is: Removal of the Forskin of a Man child of eight days old. And I believe that there can be no other rendering found within Torah.

Sorry, I'm Kinda getting a litte passionate about it all . LOL.

Ohh and by the way, for you who are wondering, I'm not trying to cover my back, I am the full deal "If ya know wadda mean".

Well, I look forward to your responses. I am kinda tired so it all might read a little "Disjuncted".

G-d Bless,

MattyJames

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Greetings YMS,

I agree with the rest of your post Good Preaching brother.

Thank you so much my brother, only through Yeshua we can do it without him we can do nothing...

But... A few things I'm finding hard to understand.

Either cir' of the Flesh came from G-d or from man. I believe that it came from G-d. I think your splitting hairs there. The circumstances by which circumcisiom is undertaken can either be of Man or of G-d.

I know it came from G-d, but what i meant to say is that some were trying to impose it on others as essential to there Salvation.... If you were not circumcisied you could not be saved.... you would be considerd an outcast... that is why i believe that the circumcision made by hands is not the circumcision G-d gave to "Abraham as a seal of righteousness of the faith"... the circumcision made by hands came from mans imagination and contradicts the gospel of grace as taught in the bible Old Tetament and New..

 

[Tishri1]

can I throw this into the mix?

http://www.torahresource.com/English Articles/CircumcisionETS.pdf

it seems to explain the reason why circumcision was done and may not be done today....but leaves the reader with a few questions to ask himself....

 

[Wags]

Well scritpure does record the circumcizing of adult men at the explicit command of Adonai -

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Joshua 5:2 It was at that time that ADONAI said to Y'hoshua, "Make yourself knives of flint, and circumcise the people of Isra'el again, a second time. 3 So Y'hoshua made himself knives of flint and circumcised the people of Isra'el at Giv'at-Ha'Aralot [the hill of foreskins]. 4 The reason Y'hoshua circumcised was that all the people who had left Egypt who were males, all the fighting men, had died in the desert along the way after leaving Egypt. 5 For although all the people who left Egypt had been circumcised, all those who had been born in the desert on the way as they went on from Egypt had not been circumcised; 6 because the people of Isra'el walked forty years in the desert until the whole nation, that is, the fighting men who had left Egypt, had died out; because they had not heeded what ADONAI said. ADONAI had sworn that he would not allow them to see the land which ADONAI swore to their ancestors that he would give us, a land flowing with milk and honey. 7 So he raised up their children to take their place, and it was these whom Y'hoshua circumcised; till then they had been uncircumcised, because they had not been circumcised while traveling. 8 When all the nation had been circumcised, every one of them, they stayed where they were in camp until they had healed. 9 ADONAI said to Y'hoshua, "Today I have rolled off from you the stigma of Egypt." This is why the place has been called Gilgal [rolling] ever since.

In other discussions I have heard of Egypt being described as "sin" and the "promised land" as redemption (or heaven). In the above story we see that they were required to become phyically circumcised after crossing over the Jordon.
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