Circular Logic? A piece of Pi...

[LightHorseman]

Smidlee... No... you CAN'T build a pool to those measurements! Not if it is circular!

To foind the circumference of a circle, pi x diametre.
therefore, to find the circumference of the circle that is this cauldron deal, pi x 10 cubits, which will equal 3.14.... cubits. Not 3.

 

[Smidlee]

Smidlee... No... you CAN'T build a pool to those measurements! Not if it is circular!

To foind the circumference of a circle, pi x diametre.
therefore, to find the circumference of the circle that is this cauldron deal, pi x 10 cubits, which will equal 3.14.... cubits. Not 3.

You still got Pi on your brain . Forget Pi... think .. you can build a pool according to those measurements. I gave your measurment of my Pepsi bottle just as it's written in Kings 7 :23 but it doesn't mean Pi=8.5.

 

[LightHorseman]

yeah? try it. Go. Right now. You draw me a circle with 3 units circumference to 1 unit diameter. 30:10 will be fine, or heck, 300:100 if you like. Go nuts. Now, if you can do it, I'll write to everyone who has agreed with me thius far and tell them they are wrong. How about it?

 

[laptoppop]

The passage is not claiming that Pi is 3.00. Please read my other posts in this thread. The passage actually reports the proper number to within 2" or within 15 thousandths of an inch, depending on what method of interpretation you use.

 

[LightHorseman]

And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

Thats the King James version right there, looks like its saying 30:10 to me.

But even if I accept what you are saying, the whole point of the discussion is regarding the literal inerrancy of the Bible, 3.14 is just as much an approximation as 3 is. The decimal expansion of pi never ends and never repeats to infinity. (This would have been a great place to put such a statement, which would have been utterly beyond the capabilities of the ancient Hebrews, or even the translators of the King James Bible, to have known. What a stunningly convincing proof of supernatural authorship it would have been!) Finally, given a ten-cubit (about fifteen feet) diameter vessel with a circumference of fifty feet or so, anybody should be able to get at least three-figure accuracy in determining the value of pi. At the very least, anyone measuring the cauldron with even the crudest device should find a circumference of thirty-one cubits.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

3.14 is just as much an approximation as 3 is.


is it?

3.14/pi * 100=99.9493043 % accurate
3/pi*100=95.4929659 %

way i figure it, 3.14 is 4.5% better an estimate.

 

[jereth]

Smidlee... No... you CAN'T build a pool to those measurements! Not if it is circular!

Well maybe he wants a hexagonal pool?

 

[pehkay]

lol

 

[OldWiseGuy]

[

quote=LightHorseman]And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about. Thats the King James version right there, looks like its saying 30:10 to me

So, are you saying that because the dimensions are incorrect that there was no laver? Wouldn't that mess up the continuity of the whole ritual process?

Perhaps you are being just a little 'righteous overmuch'? Remember that the bible defines understatement. So pi is slightly understated. Big deal.

Also, how would pi be expressed in Hebrew using cubits and spans as a measure.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

[


Aren't you being just a little 'righteous overmuch'? Remember that the bible defines understatement. So pi is slightly understated. Big deal.

Also, how would pi be expressed in Hebrew using cubits and spans as a measure.

Article IX.
We affirm that inspiration, through not conferring omniscience, guaranteed true and trustworthy utterance on all matters of which the Biblical authors were moved to speak and write.
We deny that the finitude or falseness of these writers, by necessity or otherwise, introduced distortion or falsehood into God's Word.

Chicago statement on inerrancy
at:
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/chicago.htm

 

[Smidlee]

yeah? try it. Go. Right now. You draw me a circle with 3 units circumference to 1 unit diameter. 30:10 will be fine, or heck, 300:100 if you like. Go nuts. Now, if you can do it, I'll write to everyone who has agreed with me thius far and tell them they are wrong. How about it?

You still reading that verse like this "... ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was thirty cubits all round about and his height was five cubits." But it doesn't read like that. It aready established the rim was 10 cubit across and was round so why did it repeat the exact same thing after given the height again? IMO It doesn't just like the rest of the measurments found in scriptures. Thus there are three different measurement in this verse not two. So it doesn't say 10 =30. This is your assumption that the brim is exactly the same size as the pool itself. There no reason to believe your assumption is absolute truth.

Even my neighbor has one of those small pools that the brim isn't the same size as the pool itself.

 

[LightHorseman]

how do you have a rim that isn't the same size as the pool? what fills in the intervening space?

10 across, thats from one side of the brim to the other, 30 around, the measurement as the worm crawls around the brim... Thats what it says. Its right there. In the scripture.

So, have you drawn me a circle 30:10 yet?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

how do you have a rim that isn't the same size as the pool? what fills in the intervening space?

10 across, thats from one side of the brim to the other, 30 around, the measurement as the worm crawls around the brim... Thats what it says. Its right there. In the scripture.

So, have you drawn me a circle 30:10 yet?

Actually, it doesn't say that in scripture. What it does say is revealing.

It says that the brim was 'wrought' (shaped) like the brim of a cup. The brim of a cup is flaired outward slightly, both for looks and to make sipping it's contents more comfortable on the mouth. If then the '30 cubits around' measurement was the largest diameter below the flaired brim, or rim, the measurments make perfect sense.

So, it appears that it was a cylindrical shaped pool five cubits high, 30 cubits around, with a slightly flaired brim (remember that wrought means shaped) that measures 10 cubits across. Problem solved. (And it only took me five minutes!)

 

[LightHorseman]

nope, thats not what it says. 30 across. That means the top. Problem NOT solved.

 

[laptoppop]

I have given you two explanations, one which resolves it to within about 2", and the other which resolves it to within 15 thousandths of an inch. I prefer the first, but am intrigued by the second. The word for circumference ("round about") is not the normal word -- it has an extra character -- for a reason. I can understand you rejecting the explanations -- but don't pretend they don't exist, and that they don't satisfy a large number of smart, educated people.

 

[laptoppop]

By the way, the value of pi from the second explanation is 3.141509433962 -- amazingly close to the current value.

 

[LightHorseman]

Are errors in translation not also evidence of errors in the Bible though?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

LightHorseman,

The bible can be a building block, or stumblingstone. It's up to each to decide for themselves which one it is. Is there a reason why are you so cynical? You seem to have a mandate to present the bible as flawed. Howcome???

 

[LightHorseman]

Cynical? moi? Deeply. 10 years in the Army will do that to you.

But to answer you further... my problem is with people who INSIST on taking it as the ACTUAL word of God, rather than the work of humans INSPIRED by God. And people who do this, are generally the ones guilty of forcing their views onto other people. Pick an issue, racism, sexuality, evolution, whatever... they have views on a subject that, for whatever reason, they feel they must enforce in everyone else, and they then use the Bible to back them up:

"we can bash gay people because it says in the Bible"
"we shouldn't teach our kids about science, because science contradicts the Bible"
"we should practice female circumcision, because women belong to men (like it says in the bible) and this will stop them straying"

Without paying regard to changes in society and human knowledge, you create problems for yourself, and thats fine if you keep it to yourself. But often, people DON'T. And as an informed, educated, and (I hope) intelligent Christian, I feel that if I can pursuade anyone out there that maybe the Bible DOESN'T have ALL the answers, and that God would like us to use our BRAINS as well as his guidebook, than in a small way I might help people get a clearer view of the world.

Further, God gives us a universe where we are capable of learning about it scientifically, and gives us brains that are capable of understanding results from that science... Do you really think that he doesn't want us to use those gifts? People who believe the Bible tells them otherwise upset me greatly.

Imagine if you will, your most beloved child. For his birthday, you give that child the most wonderful, exciting, expensive, educational and fun toy ever created. How would you feel if the child then refuses to take the damn thing out of the box, and acts as though the pictures on the box are the point of the thing, rather than whats inside?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Cynical? moi? Deeply. 10 years in the Army will do that to you.

But to answer you further... my problem is with people who INSIST on taking it as the ACTUAL word of God, rather than the work of humans INSPIRED by God. And people who do this, are generally the ones guilty of forcing their views onto other people. Pick an issue, racism, sexuality, evolution, whatever... they have views on a subject that, for whatever reason, they feel they must enforce in everyone else, and they then use the Bible to back them up:

"we can bash gay people because it says in the Bible"
"we shouldn't teach our kids about science, because science contradicts the Bible"
"we should practice female circumcision, because women belong to men (like it says in the bible) and this will stop them straying"

Without paying regard to changes in society and human knowledge, you create problems for yourself, and thats fine if you keep it to yourself. But often, people DON'T. And as an informed, educated, and (I hope) intelligent Christian, I feel that if I can pursuade anyone out there that maybe the Bible DOESN'T have ALL the answers, and that God would like us to use our BRAINS as well as his guidebook, than in a small way I might help people get a clearer view of the world.

Further, God gives us a universe where we are capable of learning about it scientifically, and gives us brains that are capable of understanding results from that science... Do you really think that he doesn't want us to use those gifts? People who believe the Bible tells them otherwise upset me greatly.

Imagine if you will, your most beloved child. For his birthday, you give that child the most wonderful, exciting, expensive, educational and fun toy ever created. How would you feel if the child then refuses to take the damn thing out of the box, and acts as though the pictures on the box are the point of the thing, rather than whats inside?

I understand your frustration. I feel that way as well sometimes. But I try to use my God-given intelligence to uncover the hidden meanings in the bible, not to build a case against it because the stories don't make perfect literal sense.

Regarding your above examples, nowhere are christians allowed or encouraged to act this way towards anyone. Those that do are committing a serious error.

I was also in the army, but only for three years. It took at least that long after I got out to get my head straight. It does screw up your attitude.