Church authority structure

[mindlight]

1) Is the existence of senior pastors, vicars, or priests actually unbiblical?
2) Does the bible say that a team of elders should guide the church?
3) Do people believe that the original function of apostles is adequately taken over by bishops?

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

We are the body of Christ, not the blob of Christ.

We are made of different parts with different functions. Since the time of the NT, the Church has appointed men through the direct authority of the apostles to lead the Church or pursue some task.

From the Catholic view, the authority of the apostles rests in the Pope alone. The teaching authority of the apostles falls unto bishops.

 

[ebia]

1) Is the existence of senior pastors, vicars, or priests actually unbiblical?

no.

Depending exactly what you mean some of it might be a-biblical.

2) Does the bible say that a team of elders should guide the church?

No. The bible doesn't give an instruction manual on running a church. At most it gives some case studies. Acts and the epistles seem to acknowledge that elders are involved in running at least some local congregations but it never spells out the complete picture of even that.

3) Do people believe that the original function of apostles is adequately taken over by bishops?

what function would that be? Their sent-ness?

 

[mindlight]

We are the body of Christ, not the blob of Christ.

We are made of different parts with different functions. Since the time of the NT, the Church has appointed men through the direct authority of the apostles to lead the Church or pursue some task.

From the Catholic view, the authority of the apostles rests in the Pope alone. The teaching authority of the apostles falls unto bishops.

I am not a Catholic though there is a large overlap. For instance I believe the Bible is clear that Peter was the first among equals amongst the apostles as he was appointed by Christ. It was also clear that he could be rebuked if off the track e.g. by Paul over Judaising tendencies. Since the authority given to the apostles seems to have been exercised by each of the apostles it seems strange to suggest that only Peter actually had that authority.

Agree we have different roles and appointments and that leadership gives coherence to the body of Christ.

 

[mindlight]

no.

Depending exactly what you mean some of it might be a-biblical.


No. The bible doesn't give an instruction manual on running a church. At most it gives some case studies. Acts and the epistles seem to acknowledge that elders are involved in running at least some local congregations but it never spells out the complete picture of even that.


what function would that be? Their sent-ness?

Apostles seem to give oversight, people were accountable to them, they would send letters and appointed representatives to sort out matters of church discipline or direction, they would preach the gospel and plant new churches working hard to enable these new churches.

I agree the Bible is a little vague about the details of church government. But I have met some very strong minded people recently who believe that the biblical pattern is local congreations led by groups of elders (with a senior elder from their ranks) but no oversight above that. The danger of such structures in my view is that they lead to splits and fragmentation of the church into small groups.

 

[ebia]

Apostles seem to give oversight, people were accountable to them, they would send letters and appointed representatives to sort out matters of church discipline or direction, they would preach the gospel and plant new churches working hard to enable these new churches.

I suppose my question is which of those is specifically apostolic. Who are we counting as apostle anyway?

I agree the Bible is a little vague about the details of church government. But I have met some very strong minded people recently who believe that the biblical pattern is local congreations led by groups of elders (with a senior elder from their ranks) but no oversight above that. The danger of such structures in my view is that they lead to splits and fragmentation of the church into small groups.

what is, say, 1st Corinthians if not an example of oversight from above?

 

[New_Wineskin]

1) Is the existence of senior pastors, vicars, or priests actually unbiblical?

Nothing , realy , is unbiblical . You can find almost anything in th eScriptures if you look hard enough and allow the vaguest of interpretations .

2) Does the bible say that a team of elders should guide the church?

It could , if you want . Or , it could forbid it , if you want .

3) Do people believe that the original function of apostles is adequately taken over by bishops?

Some do .

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Hi everyone,

While not strictly off topic to this Forum, this topic is better suited to Ecclesiology so I'm moving it there. I am, however, leaving a two week redirect so those who have found this here but have not subscribed to the thread can still find it.

God bless, and happy posting.

Mark
Staff Supervisor.

 

[2thePoint]

Agree that we are the Body, not the Blob, because we are all given various gifts so that the Body may be whole. But those "parts" are not hierarchical; the eye does not give orders to the hand, and the foot does not ask permission of the ear. We are ONE Body, not many, and there is only one Head (Eph. 4:15, Mat. 23:8).

I think it's very significant that no explicit instructions are given to any "church structure" beyond this Body model. Surely if something is vital or commanded we would see such explicit instructions, so the lack of them means it is not vital or commanded. There are those who are mature in the faith and known to have a good grasp of the scriptures, and these lead by example, not fiat. Children are to grow up and students are to graduate, so that the Body may grow to maturity in all ways.

Paul himself stated that his authority was to build people up, not press them down (2 Cor. 10:8), and he often approached people with fear and trembling, in keeping with the clear scriptural mandate against "lording over". The only true ruling authority is in Christ ("all authority has been given to me"), and those who were taught by him directly. They laid the foundation (1 Cor. 3:10) and the rest of us are to build carefully on it. Not all of us were to lay the foundation; that's why not all of us could write scripture.

So the only true "authority over" in the NT is in Jesus Himself and those he taught face-to-face, or who wrote for those that were so taught. No one else has had such authority; no one else could or can pull rank over their fellow believers, because that would be "usurping authority".

Some try the fearmongering approach and warn that there will be chaos without human authorities in the Body. But the Holy Spirit is given to all and is quite capable of guiding us, along with the scriptures that same Spirit inspired. Hierarchical authority structure has never been able to guard against heresy, but actually has in many cases served to spread it faster. Various seminaries tend to teach only a particular viewpoint rather than "the whole counsel of God", which tends to widen divisions in the Body.

The individual believer is a king and priest of God in Christ and should never be considered or treated as lesser kings and priests as those who have assumed titles and offices not found in scripture. The various terms there-- pastor, teacher, overseer, guardian, elder-- are never called offices or positions but only services to the Body. And we must not fall into the trap of redefining "service" to sometimes mean "authority over"; that is the way of the world and its Orwellian doublespeak.

 

[Rick Otto]

...The individual believer is a king and priest of God in Christ and should never be considered or treated as lesser kings and priests as those who have assumed titles and offices not found in scripture. The various terms there-- pastor, teacher, overseer, guardian, elder-- are never called offices or positions but only services to the Body. And we must not fall into the trap of redefining "service" to sometimes mean "authority over"; that is the way of the world and its Orwellian doublespeak.

wow. And how.

 

[bbbbbbb]

1) Is the existence of senior pastors, vicars, or priests actually unbiblical?

Yes

2) Does the bible say that a team of elders should guide the church?

Yes

3) Do people believe that the original function of apostles is adequately taken over by bishops?

Yes

And who says I am disagreeable all the time?

 

[CryptoLutheran]

The Bible never outlines a church polity, it simply acknowledges that there is one--and it seems somewhat malleable and continued to shift a little bit historically up until and through the second century.

I don't have strong dogmatic feelings about polity for the most part, though it seems rather clear to me that the traditional polity of bishops and presbyters is the most historically tenable one. I don't think such a polity is outright essential, however.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Incariol]

1) Is the existence of senior pastors, vicars, or priests actually unbiblical?

No.

2) Does the bible say that a team of elders should guide the church?

Yes, they are called "synods".

3) Do people believe that the original function of apostles is adequately taken over by bishops?

Yeah, succession from the Apostles and everything.

 

[MrPolo]

1) Is the existence of senior pastors, vicars, or priests actually unbiblical?
2) Does the bible say that a team of elders should guide the church?
3) Do people believe that the original function of apostles is adequately taken over by bishops?

1)A vicar means a representative and all those in holy orders are "pastors" in the sense that the term "pastor" is rooted in "pasture"---in other words, one who shepherds. Scripture is more explicit with bishops, priests, and deacons. Perhaps this helps.

Bishops (episcopoi) have the care of multiple congregations and appoint, ordain, and discipline priests and deacons. They sometimes appear to be called "evangelists" in the New Testament. Examples of first-century bishops include Timothy and Titus (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5).

Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as "presbyters" or "elders." In fact, the English term "priest" is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

Deacons (diakonoi) are the assistants of the bishops and are responsible for teaching and administering certain Church tasks, such as the distribution of food (Acts 6:1–6). ​

2)Acts 15 is an example of a group of the elders gathering under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

3) Bishops do not bear entirely every charism of the apostles. For instance, they cannot add to the deposit of faith taught by the Apostles, which is the foundation, although they can build upon the foundation. The historical record of the early Church's understanding clearly details that the bishops did indeed succeed the Apostles (e.g. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.3.3-4, ca 170 A.D.) Another way to recognize the lineage of succession is to recognize the priestly ministry in the Old Covenant. For instance, the tribe of Levi (the Levitical priesthood) bore succession through genealogical descent. In the New Covenant, the priestly ministry bears succession through the more superior spiritual descent.

 

[Hismessenger]

To everything there is a season, the season for those offices are past. He himself gave, past tense, now the holy spirit is come, he will lead and guide you into all truth. Trust no man, all according to the word. The elect won't be deceived because they will only receive from the holy spirit the truth of God's word, not from man. It is now the holy spirit who holds and governs all those function in us the church. God is not partial and uses the church as they submit themselves unto him. In other words, by the power of one spirit, you can be a pastor, teacher, apostle, evangelist or whatever he needs for you to be for his purpose. You don't choose or ordain men but He chooses and ordains his true servants who walk in humility, sowing where they don't reap but giving God all the glory.

Whenever you speak the word of God by the lead of the spirit, you are his prophet. It isn't a special calling of one individual anymore but by those whom hear his voice and respond.

hismessenger

 

[2thePoint]

Well said, Hismessenger. Though I do believe gifts tend to stay with the person, there are always many people with that same gift. The purpose, as you know, is to build up the Body by each "part" helping the others in various ways. If instead we cling jealously to rights we believe God gave us, we're completely missing the point of Christian fellowship. But "love does not demand its own way" and will never seek to control or rule over others.

 

[Goinheix]

1)A vicar means a representative and all those in holy orders are "pastors" in the sense that the term "pastor" is rooted in "pasture"---in other words, one who shepherds. Scripture is more explicit with bishops, priests, and deacons. Perhaps this helps.

Bishops (episcopoi) have the care of multiple congregations and appoint, ordain, and discipline priests and deacons. They sometimes appear to be called "evangelists" in the New Testament. Examples of first-century bishops include Timothy and Titus (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5).

Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as "presbyters" or "elders." In fact, the English term "priest" is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

Deacons (diakonoi) are the assistants of the bishops and are responsible for teaching and administering certain Church tasks, such as the distribution of food (Acts 6:1–6).
​

2)Acts 15 is an example of a group of the elders gathering under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

3) Bishops do not bear entirely every charism of the apostles. For instance, they cannot add to the deposit of faith taught by the Apostles, which is the foundation, although they can build upon the foundation. The historical record of the early Church's understanding clearly details that the bishops did indeed succeed the Apostles (e.g. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.3.3-4, ca 170 A.D.) Another way to recognize the lineage of succession is to recognize the priestly ministry in the Old Covenant. For instance, the tribe of Levi (the Levitical priesthood) bore succession through genealogical descent. In the New Covenant, the priestly ministry bears succession through the more superior spiritual descent.

Good post

1975. ἐπισκοπέω vigilar Hb 12:15; 1Pe 5:2
1976. ἐπισκοπή visita; cargo; episcopado Lc 19:44; Hch 1:20; 1Ti 3:1; 1Pe 2:12
1977. ἐπίσκοπος guardián, obispo Hch 20:28; Flp 1:1; 1Ti 3:2; Tit 1:7; 1Pe 2:25​

http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=58289857#_ftn1

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The Bible never outlines a church polity, it simply acknowledges that there is one--and it seems somewhat malleable and continued to shift a little bit historically up until and through the second century.

I don't have strong dogmatic feelings about polity for the most part, though it seems rather clear to me that the traditional polity of bishops and presbyters is the most historically tenable one. I don't think such a polity is outright essential, however.

-CryptoLutheran

Agreed. BTW, your "Lutheranism" is less "Cryptic" than your name implies.

1)A vicar means a representative and all those in holy orders are "pastors" in the sense that the term "pastor" is rooted in "pasture"---in other words, one who shepherds. Scripture is more explicit with bishops, priests, and deacons. Perhaps this helps.

Bishops (episcopoi) have the care of multiple congregations and appoint, ordain, and discipline priests and deacons. They sometimes appear to be called "evangelists" in the New Testament. Examples of first-century bishops include Timothy and Titus (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5).

Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as "presbyters" or "elders." In fact, the English term "priest" is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

Deacons (diakonoi) are the assistants of the bishops and are responsible for teaching and administering certain Church tasks, such as the distribution of food (Acts 6:1–6). ​

2)Acts 15 is an example of a group of the elders gathering under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

3) Bishops do not bear entirely every charism of the apostles. For instance, they cannot add to the deposit of faith taught by the Apostles, which is the foundation, although they can build upon the foundation. The historical record of the early Church's understanding clearly details that the bishops did indeed succeed the Apostles (e.g. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.3.3-4, ca 170 A.D.) Another way to recognize the lineage of succession is to recognize the priestly ministry in the Old Covenant. For instance, the tribe of Levi (the Levitical priesthood) bore succession through genealogical descent. In the New Covenant, the priestly ministry bears succession through the more superior spiritual descent.

Well stated. While we may disagree on the nature of "Apostolic Succession", and various Churches may use different names for these positions, this is how the Bible outlines polity within the Church.

To everything there is a season, the season for those offices are past. He himself gave, past tense, now the holy spirit is come, he will lead and guide you into all truth. Trust no man, all according to the word. The elect won't be deceived because they will only receive from the holy spirit the truth of God's word, not from man. It is now the holy spirit who holds and governs all those function in us the church. God is not partial and uses the church as they submit themselves unto him. In other words, by the power of one spirit, you can be a pastor, teacher, apostle, evangelist or whatever he needs for you to be for his purpose. You don't choose or ordain men but He chooses and ordains his true servants who walk in humility, sowing where they don't reap but giving God all the glory.

Whenever you speak the word of God by the lead of the spirit, you are his prophet. It isn't a special calling of one individual anymore but by those whom hear his voice and respond.

hismessenger

OT Prophets, St. John the Baptist, and St. Paul are those who had received a special calling to God's service and ministry, outside of Apostolic succession. I believe that such "Divine calls" still occur both within and without Apostolic succession, however it may be defined.

 

[Rick Otto]

mindlight;1) Is the existence of senior pastors, vicars, or priests actually unbiblical?

Yes.

2) Does the bible say that a team of elders should guide the church?

Yeah but, Jesus guides THE church elders guide A church.

3) Do people believe that the original function of apostles is adequately taken over by bishops?

unfortunately, some do.

 

[ivebeenshown]

unfortunately, some do.

In Acts 1, spoken of the Apostle Judas is "let his bishopric (episkope) another take." The Apostles, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, elect a new person to fill the episcopate. "Episkopos" means "bishop".

Therefore, Scripture shows that when an Apostles dies, a new bishop is elected to fill his office. Scripture also shows that those who held the episcopal office had the authority to create more ecclesiastical offices by electing more bishops, presbyters, and deacons.

The notion that anyone can be elected to fill an official position within the Church without being ordained by those already holding official positions is simply not found in Scripture.