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Christ's Deity

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by fieldsofwind, Dec 3, 2002.

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  1. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    No ... the God of the Bible came to us as flesh...

    believe

    FOW
     
  2. Jedi

    Jedi Knight

    +137
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    You reject the “false” teaching that Christ pre-existed before his birth? Well, whatever will you do with verses like John 8:58 (“Before Abraham was born, I am”), and John 1:1-2?

    If you’ll also notice, Christ is called “Wonderful counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6), “the author of life” (Acts3:15), and “our only Sovereign (or “Master”) and Lord” (Jude1:4). Seems to me he really is God in the flesh (Colossians 2:9).

    We’re not the ones twisting scripture and trying to cut words out and put words in (Like non-Trinitarians tried with Hebrews 1:8). We trust the Bible, what about you?
     
  3. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

    962
    +8
    Messianic
    It renews my hope for the youth of America
     
  4. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

    245
    +0
    Calvinist
    You be surprised how these people will answer such. Fortunately we're trying to get those answers right now. :)
     
  5. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    you'd be amazed higher truth... I'm only 20

    take care

    FOW
     
  6. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

    962
    +8
    Messianic
    Oh yes...to be young again.
     
  7. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    Good grief. :cool:
     
  8. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

    962
    +8
    Messianic
    Evangelion,

    What would you do without us? Do we not brighten up your day?
     
  9. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    HT -

    Enjoy a little peace and quiet for a change.

    Some of you certainly do. Others simply leave me scratching my head in sheer disbelief.

    As for the rest... well, I just feel sorry for you. :cool:
     
  10. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    Jedi -

    That's right. Trinitarians are little more than glorified JWs. :p

    I don't see any pre-existence here. Do you?

    I don't see Jesus mentioned in either of those two verse. Do you?

    How does this make him God?

    So what? Moses was also called God (along with quite a number of other people, including the rulers of Israel.)

    How does this make him God?

    How does this make him God?

    None of these titles convey the idea that Jesus is God. What's your point?

    Nope. Colossians 2:9 doesn't say that he's God in the flesh; it says that he possesses divine nature. Which is exactly what you'd expect of a resurrected man who received immortality.

    Well, history itself testifies to the fact that Trinitarians have been guilty of this for centuries.

    I'm perfectly happy with Hebrews 1:8. I don't see any reason to change it (unlike one Trinitarian scholar, who attempted to rewrite it to suit himself.) The reference is actually borrowed from Psalm 45 (a Messianic psalm), where a Jewish king (for whom the psalm was originally written) was called "God."

    Thus, from the footnotes of the New English Translation:

    • O God. The king is clearly the addressee here, as in vv. 2-5 and 7-9. Rather than taking the statement at face value, many prefer to emend the text because the concept of deifying the earthly king is foreign to ancient Israelite thinking (cf. NEB ‘your throne is like God’s throne, eternal’). However, it is preferable to retain the text and take this statement as another instance of the royal hyperbole that permeates the royal psalms. Because the Davidic king is God’s vice-regent on earth, the psalmist addresses him as if he were God incarnate. God energizes the king for battle and accomplishes justice through him. A similar use of hyperbole appears in Isa 9:6, where the ideal Davidic king of the eschaton is given the title ‘Mighty God’ (see the note on this phrase there).

      Ancient Near Eastern art and literature picture gods training kings for battle, bestowing special weapons, and intervening in battle. According to Egyptian propaganda, the Hittites described Rameses II as follows: ‘No man is he who is among us, It is Seth great-of-strength, Baal in person; Not deeds of man are these his doings, They are of one who is unique’ (see M. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, 2:67). Ps 45:6 and Isa. 9:6 probably envision a similar kind of response when friends and foes alike look at the Davidic king in full battle regalia. When the king’s enemies oppose him on the battlefield, they are, as it were, fighting against God himself.
    See also the footnotes in the New American Bible:

    • O god: the king, in courtly language, is called ‘god,’ i.e., more than human, representing God to the people. Hebrews 1:8-9 applies Psalm 45:7-8 to Christ.
    Looks pretty simple to me.

    No you don't. You trust the Council of Nicaea.

    Oh, I'm the one who trusts the Bible and worships the God of Israel. :cool:
     
  11. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

    245
    +0
    Calvinist
    Hello and God bless-

    Click on his signiture and compare the doctrinal similarites. Also follow This and compare with This. I almost laughed out loud.

    He's been burned here. PM me if you want the link.

    I don't see Jesus mentioned in the 'Virgin birth' prophecy either. PM me and I'll send you links to more asinine statements just like the above.

    See his actual quote here:

    Note the word's in italics. Those are the ones emphasized. Your just trying to make your post *look* longer aren't you :( ?

    What is in question is "Mighty God". A title used of YHWH exclusively and in the very next chapter of Isaiah to boot. Now if Jesus was called "Almighty God" would you use the same "Moses was called God" argument? Probably. Afterall Jesus is directly described as YHWH [See Zech14:3-4..cf..Acts1:11-12]. See also Heb1:10.

    Try the more precise rendering, "Father of Eternity".

    Were those words in italics? No. Tired there, Ev?

    None of these titles convey the idea that Jesus is God to *you* simply because they are applied to Jesus. Some people like to refer to that as 'bias'.
     
  12. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

    245
    +0
    Calvinist
    I refer my fellow posters to this article: www.forananswer.org Check the 'Apologist Bible Commentary.

    More precisely the *fullness* of divine quality residing IN Him. What does 'sum-total' denote to you? Who is the *standard* of being "fully god"? Once again I refer you to Robert Hommel's argument on this. And please, this time actually read it. And btw, bring up Peter, as I have a point to make on it. I don't believe Greg Stafford brought that one up, and for good reason. :cool:

    Been reading that good ole WTS literature? Interestingly enough, history does *not* testify to the existence of *any* group that holds the beliefs of the CDs. And the mid-fifteen hundreds do not impress me. :rolleyes:

    Just like Psalms 16, right? You've also just nullified any argument you had for 'ho theos' vs 'theos'.

    What's up with Cultists and their use of the ever changing NET bible :sick:.

    Type "John Thomas" into your search engine :D. Add in Joseph Smith and C.T. Russell to have the entire collection. :wave:

    Don't just simply ask him, but BEG him to refute Sam Shamoun's 'latreuo' argument. He won't [can't] do it. When he tries, PM me.

    God bless--FM
     
  13. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Hmmm. JWs believe:

    Jesus isn't God.
    Jesus is a created being.
    Jesus is Michael the Archangel.
    Salvation is by works.

    YOU believe:
    Jesus isn't God.
    Jesus is a created being.

    Not sure where you stand on the "works" thing, but you do accept waterbaptism as part of salvation---thus ONE WORK that we know of is part of salvation.

    WE, ("trinitarians"), on the other hand, believe:
    Jesus is God.
    Jesus is not a created being---He is eternal, from start to finish.
    Salvation is by belief, receiving His gift of grace. Belief changes the heart, which CASUES (unavoidably) good deeds.

    Errr, uhmmm, I seem to have forgotten? WHICH of US, is far closer to Jehovah's Witnesses???

    ;)
     
  14. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

    245
    +0
    Calvinist
    Nor do they believe in the eternal torment of the wicked [JW]. Neither the existence of the spirit from the body [JW].
    On a side note they don't believe in Satan either. Ask 'em what Jesus cast into the herd of pigs. They'll say "mental illness". :D Next time you rebuke a cold out of someone, make sure to toss some pillows around. It might 'tear them and come out with a screech' :rolleyes: :hug:

    God bless--FM
     
  15. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

    962
    +8
    Messianic
    Future Man....I like your style.

    It gives me hope for the 'Future'.
     
  16. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

    +85
    Christian
    Married


    [​IMG]
     
  17. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

    245
    +0
    Calvinist
    They just keep popping into my head!..:holy:

    I'd mention their insistence on using the word 'ecclesia' in reference to their churches and the similarity in the JW insistence upon calling their buildings "Halls",....but I've pointed out enough for now. :)
     
  18. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

    +85
    Christian
    Married

    It is somewhat amazing that non-Christian cults should accuse Christians of being like the JW's. All of the non-Christian cults reject Jesus Christ's deity. All of the non-Christian cults follow a doctrine that was given to them by their founder(s) through extra-biblical means. All of these religious movements are works based. They state in their doctrine that Jesus Christ's shed blood upon Calvary was not sufficent in of itself for Salvation.

    Grace plus Man's works equals Salvation.



    [​IMG]
     
  19. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

    962
    +8
    Messianic
    Semper Fidelis Gunny Sgt. [salute]

    Soldier of the Cross
     
  20. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

    +85
    Christian
    Married
    Semper FI, Higher Truth


    GySgt James



    [​IMG]
     
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